[fooltoque]

I may add a little 'trick' here. Instead of using some a helping hand, it is easier to use blutack instead sometimes.

That sounds like a great hack to get things going without buying a full setup.

 

[saldsald]

That sounds like a great hack to get things going without buying a full setup.

Actually another advice I can add, if you don't want to maintain your iron tip you should consider using silver containing solder such as the Oyaide SS-47.

 

[Kenyon]

This is a topic that has raged on for a very long time, and I respect what others have had to say on the subject either way. I also never "discourage" others from researching information on this topic to form their own beliefs, because there is good information on both sides of this camp (there are always two sides to a coin).

I am (and never have been) one who will argue one way or the other vehemently. I will present my knowledge on the subject, and let others decide whether this is a fact that many say it is, or not a fact that many others say it is not.

That is great - I think the issue is mostly semantic - perhaps what we can do is instead of stating that something is a fact - we could tell people this is an area of debate and suggest they conduct their own research - perhaps we could even make a reference post where relevant studies (with methodological constraints highlighted) can be linked - so both the for and against cases can be presented. Personally, I am a little uneasy when speaking of facts in a subjective context as then it's hard for the word to retain it's intended meaning. I think we can all agree it would be good to do away with the "trust me bro" arguements and everyone can be treated as a grown up to make their own decisions based on the reference studies/ some factual, some based on experience that have convinced either side so completely.

I know a lot of electricians/electronics personnel that don't have a college degree that might offer information to the contrary.

I understand - and there are always edge cases - consequently I think this is all relative - I know electricians that have been great and knowledgeable and others that know absolutely nothing technical - same can be said about colleagues I have known in electronic hardware production. Contrarily, I also have friends who are professors or have PHDs in electrical engineering & material sciences, as well as audio/mastering engineerers who whilst not discounting an electrician would not hold them out as having the same knowledge on these subjects as they are not specialists (like using a local garage mechanic on an F1 car - it's just not the same past a certain knowldge level). Likewise,they probably would not hold themselves out as being able to rewire a building.

Further, I think there is somewhat of a difference between learning on a job through trial and error where the end result (pass/fail) is the objective and an academic who is fine tuning a repeatable consistent hypothesis/analysis that will be rigorously scrutinized by their peers to ensure we can separate causation from coincidence. I am sure many in this forum will tell you - peer review is no joke - and it prevents people from running out and announcing experience based results as facts due to the hubris of standing on the back of decades of science. It is both a necessity and a pragmatic pain in the arse. Moreover, none of this is to discount anyone in their actual job or the value of said job just - these are very different roles with different skillsets, working habits and objectives.

having a college degree on this whole subject would mean that there is no real reason to ask questions about it anyhow.

I am not sure I follow the logic here - has anyone posited that audio science is a complete field - if that was the case - there must be someone in this forum that has completed such a degree and could definitively answer questions such as the cable one you posed Sadly I am not sure that the role of experts has that effect with everyone or this debate would have been settled long ago - again the power of psycho acoustics and our own rejection of internal cognitive dissonance - should not be underestimated.

Further, just because someone has knowledge does not mean they hoard it and there are many who take pleasure (I believe you are such a person based on your previous posts) in being able to provide additional facts or wrinkles into arguements so that people posing questions, receive factually correct & helpful information - I wouldn't be surprised if there are many musicians or people that work in audio who still contribute in this forum even though they have a far more expansive audio knowldge/industry understanding than the common forum member.

I am sure it wasn't your goal to sound accusatory or insulting, but I wasn't aware that I needed to offer my credentials on the subject in order to help others with the importance of the subject. If I read that wrong, then many apologies to you.

I am not sure where this is coming from - I was not aware that I made any such demands - in fact did I not begin the comment by stating

I have respect for your standing in the earbud forum and have no desire to argue

Just because someone offers contrary commentary to your own does not mean it is an attack in any sense - I believe you & I have gone through this before with some technical terms and uses that were being suggested to be used in an unorthodox manner - no need for everything to be taken personally - however neither is anyone above people being allowed to question what they say...

As I stated from the start - I am not interested in arguing with you

 

[Kenyon]

I tried searching his posts, but can't find a good article on this. Can you suggest a thread?
I makes sense to me that cables would only make a noticeable difference for extreme cases (very low impedance headphones), but it's hard to convince myself with so many different opinions.

Unfortunately his posts get deleted often as he can be slightly combative - I am sure he will join the chat at some point.

I would suggest looking on AudioScienceReview (please ignore the nerd bickering) rather than Head-fi if you are looking for this type of information as there are many measurements on this topic by people with vastly more experience/knowledge than myself in this particular area - particular commentary by SIY & Solderdude are valuable to make sense of the measurements.

- cables can make measurable differences, same as retests can, but we need to view those differences with materiality/audibility in mind when a minimum cable standard has been set to compare. Though I do seem to recall someone measuring a premium low measuring cable against a ziptie on ASR and the difference at 20khz was <2db (subject to the cable length - I believe this was around 3-5m so far longer than most 1.2m headphone cable...)

Here are a couple of articles/ papers that I can think of off the top of my head but always happy to work with others to compile a list as per my previous post to guide anyone interested.

https://archimago.blogspot.com/2020/02/measurements-archimagos-colorful.html?m=1
I think this is a really good overarching article - Archimago usually also has links to other studies he has used when conducting his research and is a good jumping off point.

http://tmr-audio.de/pdf/kabl_cap.pdf
This is usually behind the AES paywall but it is probably important to have some commentary here as the effects accumulate to under 0.65db @20khz - if anyone can hear that difference - it is unheard of.

Hope that helps

 

[fooltoque]

Hope that helps

Very much so, thanks

And to all, sorry for continuing the cable derail of the earbuds thread. I have been around long enough to see this debate come up here every couple months, and I'm sure the old timers are pretty tired of it

 

[mt877]

Downloaded (and very much appreciated)!

Agree - what a fantastic document!!

Downloaded. This is awesome, thanks so much for putting this together! I'm getting excited (a few weeks until everything comes in and I can get to work on it though).

I may add a little 'trick' here. Instead of using some helping hand, it is easier to use blutack instead sometimes.

Actually another advice I can add, if you don't want to maintain your iron tip you should consider using silver containing solder such as the Oyaide SS-47.

I'm glad you guys find it useful and not too lacking in details or examples. I think it's a decent soldering primer for guys that need a little helping hand to get started. There's probably some nice YT videos on soldering in general which would enhance your knowledge and skill level as well. Before you know it with some soldering practice you'll find what works best for you. @saldsald, excellent suggestions.

I see from the response that many people like the soldering 101, so I added the post link to my signature for easy future reference. I guess I'll find a permanent home for that document so others can download it in the future.

 

[rkw]

If you are talking about IEM/bud cables, especially those made in China or the wires manufactured in China,

Wait, you mean there are others?

 

[metrics]

RW2000 and Monk A1 coming home (if i'm lucky) sometime next week.

Especially anxious to compare RW2000 against DB1E in soundstage. The first was listed in 'Flathead Timeline' by our retired WoodyLuvr, under the category 'Earbuds for StageHeads', and DB1E has the largest soundstage i have ever in any transducer till the present date, so i'm expecting this to be, like, the battle of the century

About Monk A1 i'm hyped by the promise of the naturalness of its timbre; i don't have a opponent for it, but when the time comes i'll see.

Also, yeah, i'm procrastinating in writing my thoughts about DB1E and A-Bells. But i'll get it done any day.

 

[lordearl]

@mt877 after years and years of building tube and solid state amp projects I am kicking myself for not considering a DIY bud project much earlier. Is there a sort of "shell + driver combination 101" guide for different sound types for those of us looking to get into this?

I think the aim (at least for me) is not to open a can of worms and buy a dozen shells and a dozen drivers!!

 

[Kyonnie]

I makes sense to me that cables would only make a noticeable difference for extreme cases (very low impedance headphones), but it's hard to convince myself with so many different opinions.

I'm with you on this one. My easiest takeaway with all of these is that cables can change the sound, but it's not universal or be very noticeable; it's a case-by-case scenario, but is it worth the price? Seeing people who go nuts on cables spend upwards of 1k USD to tune their IEMs and believe that EQ degrades the SQ (debatable), I personally just focus on getting good gear in the first place to avoid all of these headaches.

Very much so, thanks

And to all, sorry for continuing the cable derail of the earbuds thread. I have been around long enough to see this debate come up here every couple months, and I'm sure the old timers are pretty tired of it

I know people can be biased by their own beliefs, but it's very nice to see differing opinions to form your own. That's why I appreciate everyone's view point.

I may add a little 'trick' here. Instead of using some helping hand, it is easier to use blutack instead sometimes.

That sounds like a great hack to get things going without buying a full setup.

I learned this from SG audiohive YT channel pretty neat little trick lol.

 

[Kyonnie]

Unfortunately his posts get deleted often as he can be slightly combative - I am sure he will join the chat at some point.

I would suggest looking on AudioScienceReview (please ignore the nerd bickering) rather than Head-fi if you are looking for this type of information as there are many measurements on this topic by people with vastly more experience/knowledge than myself in this particular area - particular commentary by SIY & Solderdude are valuable to make sense of the measurements.

- cables can make measurable differences, same as retests can, but we need to view those differences with materiality/audibility in mind when a minimum cable standard has been set to compare. Though I do seem to recall someone measuring a premium low measuring cable against a ziptie on ASR and the difference at 20khz was <2db (subject to the cable length - I believe this was around 3-5m so far longer than most 1.2m headphone cable...)

Here are a couple of articles/ papers that I can think of off the top of my head but always happy to work with others to compile a list as per my previous post to guide anyone interested.

https://archimago.blogspot.com/2020/02/measurements-archimagos-colorful.html?m=1
I think this is a really good overarching article - Archimago usually also has links to other studies he has used when conducting his research and is a good jumping off point.

http://tmr-audio.de/pdf/kabl_cap.pdf
This is usually behind the AES paywall but it is probably important to have some commentary here as the effects accumulate to under 0.65db @20khz - if anyone can hear that difference - it is unheard of.

Hope that helps

Thanks for links. I frequent ASR when I was in the market for dongles I think their pretty cool but can be a lil too combative sometimes lol.

I'm glad you guys find it useful and not too lacking in details or examples. I think it's a decent soldering primer for guys that need a little helping hand to get started. There's probably some nice YT videos on soldering in general which would enhance your knowledge and skill level as well. Before you know it with some soldering practice you'll find what works best for you. @saldsald, excellent suggestions.

I see from the response that many people like the soldering 101, so I added the post link to my signature for easy future reference. I guess I'll find a permanent home for that document so others can download it in the future.

Thats a good idea to preserve this so that people don't have to worry it disappearing, thank you for your efforts!

@mt877 after years and years of building tube and solid state amp projects I am kicking myself for not considering a DIY bud project much earlier. Is there a sort of "shell + driver combination 101" guide for different sound types for those of us looking to get into this?

I think the aim (at least for me) is not to open a can of worms and buy a dozen shells and a dozen drivers!!

If you have other earbuds, you can form an idea of what will fit you the best. A comfortable fit is the most important factor because it changes the sound a lot. In my opinion, the most versatile and easiest choice would be the MX500. A lot of the drivers synergize very well with it, and it's very customizable. The only problem is the fit for most people.

 

[lordearl]

Thx mate - I'm typically fairly easy when it comes to fit. Probably the sound profile is more the key. I tend to like neutral (studio style clean bass) with gentle treble that's not too sibilant or bright.

Any drivers come to mind that might be a good start?

In terms of shells, preference would be to use a set that can take detachable cables. Either 2 pin or MMCX is perfect. Assume there might be some options on AliExpress.

 

[Kyonnie]

Thx mate - I'm typically fairly easy when it comes to fit. Probably the sound profile is more the key. I tend to like neutral (studio style clean bass) with gentle treble that's not too sibilant or bright.

Any drivers come to mind that might be a good start?

In terms of shells, preference would be to use a set that can take detachable cables. Either 2 pin or MMCX is perfect. Assume there might be some options on AliExpress.

Either 32BG or 150BG both are very easy to tune and have pretty good technicalities. For the shells, there's an MMCX-ready MX500 shell available in AliX if you want metal shells. I like this open-back shell.
But unlike the MX500, it's pretty limited in customizability. For more information about drivers and shell types, refer to @Rary DIY WORKROOM

 

[lordearl]

Either 32BG or 150BG both are very easy to tune and have pretty good technicalities. For the shells, there's an MMCX-ready MX500 shell available in AliX if you want metal shells. I like this open-back shell.
But unlike the MX500, it's pretty limited in customizability. For more information about drivers and shell types, refer to @Rary DIY WORKROOM

Brilliant!
This the one?

https://a.aliexpress.com/_mL9z4Ag

 

[mt877]

@mt877 after years and years of building tube and solid state amp projects I am kicking myself for not considering a DIY bud project much earlier. Is there a sort of "shell + driver combination 101" guide for different sound types for those of us looking to get into this?

I think the aim (at least for me) is not to open a can of worms and buy a dozen shells and a dozen drivers!!

@Kyonnie already gave you the only bud build guide that I know of. I've looked at the guide, but never built any of them. I did read about 2/3 of the DIY Earbuds thread and there is plenty of information to be learned from that thread. It's just that you have to sort what is important need to know stuff from other discussion, but highly recommended to browse that thread.

Re: Can of worms... that is sort of what I did. Started out with the venerable MX500 and PK shells and picked out a few 15.4mm, 14.8mm drivers, cables and tuning foams and tuning papers to mess around with to see what I could build. After several failed and successful experimental builds I learned a lot. It's actually a continuing learning process as I tried a few metal shells and other drivers.

Edit: I have dropped a couple drag and drop bud builds in this thread as well as the DIY Earbuds thread which I thought were good enough to share. I'll hunt down those builds and put links in my signature when I have some time. Decided to just add links to this post as I dig them up.

Easy Drag & Drop build with MMCX Metal Shell and 150Ω BG drivers (same shell as the NSC Audio 80Ω LCPs).

Spoiler: MMCX Metal Shell and 150Ω BG drivers

I've since changed to a 4.4mmBal cable instead of 3.5mmSE, but it will sound nice either way.

MMCX Metal Shell with PK style front cover, Yuin PK2 Pro 32Ω drivers build with a little tuning
This is a build which requires a little tuning, tuning instruction is in the post.

Spoiler: MMCX Metal Shell with PK style front cover

When I posted this build I had put the front covers on upside down by mistake, the front covers should be rotated 180 degrees. Also instead of the voicecoil opening centered and positioned at the bottom of the shell, it is positioned at the top of the shell. Of course you can try it either way, but the best sound was with the driver's voicecoil opening at the top of the shell. To me these buds sounded the best with HieGi full foams.

I don't have this bud anymore. My niece wanted some earbuds and I let her listen to 4 of my DIY builds and she liked this one the best. I was very happy to gift these buds to her. I'm gonna have to build another set for myself.

Old style Docomo (2005) with PK2 32Ω driver recable
This is an ideal first DIY project. A simple earbud recable and you end up with a nice sounding set of old style Docomo earbuds.

Spoiler: Old style Docomo with PK2 32Ω driver

Drag & Drop DIY PK1 with original PK 14.8mm 150Ω red film drivers
I've never listened to music with the original Yuin PK1, so I don't know how this DIY PK1 build compares. All I can say is that the 14.8mm 150Ω red film drivers are the very best PK drivers out there. The 150 red films are getting scarce and the current prices at AE reflect that. So if you're looking for a budget build, this isn't it, but if you want to experience a set of PK1 buds that sound fantastic & engaging, this is the build for you. Parts sources in the spoiler.

Spoiler: DIY PK1 with original 14.8mm 150Ω red film drivers

PK1 two slot rear vent shell : The original PK shells have 2 rear vent slots, do not get the cheaper single vent PK shells for this build.
14.8mm 150Ω red film drivers : These original high impedance PK drivers are becoming scarce and the cost of the drivers reflect it.
DIY / Repair 3.5SE cable : A small diameter cable is required for PK shells, you might be able to install a thin twisted cable. Anyway this cable fits perfectly.
PK shells typically have a notch at the top of shell to accomodate the voicecoil, so install the driver to align the voicecoil with the notch in the shell.

15.4mm 18Ω PU+Titanium driver in a MMCX shell

Spoiler: 15.4mm 18Ω PU+Titanium composite driver in a MMCX shell

Golden Bell 32Ω Bio Composite

Spoiler: Golden Bell 32Ω Bio Composite

Artiste Nightingale earbuds

Spoiler: Artiste Nightingale earbuds

I'll wrap up my builds list with the build which started this discussion.
MMCX Metal Shell with 300Ω PET driver

Spoiler: MMCX Metal Shell with 300Ω PET driver