[Dog meat]

  Any IEM bias in the review? I mean, personal preference sure...but the fact that most of the IEM's seem to be on the bottom of the list seems a tad worrying. Especially in the actual sound department. I've owned a LOT of the stuff listed (both fullsize and IEM) and something seems off. To say the HE-400's rank better than the JH16? Way above the W4? How in the hell does that even happen??? It has weaker bass with way weaker extension, the mids and highs don't even compare, detail and separation are no where near...sound stage and airiness are the only two things that I would say are "better" but not by that much. 
 
I dunno...in the end it doesn't matter to me (as this hardly matches my experiences) but many of the IEM's he listed, to me, objectively sound much better in every way than the fullsized cans he reviewed. The ONLY reason I could see some of the lesser fullsizers (and a lot of the higher ends) being better than the IEM's is maybe sound stage...other than that...lows, mids, highs, separation, etc is far better on a majority of these IEM's then most of the fullsized cans.
 
Just...hmm...the ranking doesn't match up at all to where I would list most of these.
 
Whatever I guess...just seems a tad biased is all. Like I said, his decision I know I know... 

Go write your own battle of the flaghips then, put jh16 on top, w4 on the top 10 and the he-400 on the #50 spot.

 

[AndroidVageta]

   
On the HE400 note though, I personally think there's a HUGE technical difference between it and a W4 although I don't know compared to the JH16. I would love to own an IEM that does all the things HE400 does for me but I haven't had the luck of finding the pair that does that yet. Are the CIEMs seriously good enough to challenge the transparency of planar cans? Lastly, regarding the $200 headphone quote, you should know that price does not equal sound quality.

 
See I was not impressed by the HE-400 at all. For being planar I thought it sounded...not muddy...but too coherent. Poor separation...everything just seemed to blend together. That and just the over all sound was uninspiring. No soul. The lows didn't hit as well as I'd like nor did they go as deep as I'd like. Extension was pretty bad. Mids were OK but lacked detail and were more muddy then warm. Highs were OK but didn't quite have the crispness I've grown to love from armature drivers.
 
Over all as a planar headphone I don't think the HE-400 is that impressive. Certainly, as I've said, no where near the level of something like the JH16 when it comes to over all sonic fidelity. Like I said, I think the only place I can say they're better is with sound stage but that's certainly something that wouldn't put them on a much higher pedestal.
 
I find this a lot though in my audio travels. Maybe I'm a bit more strict with my sound but I generally find I flow away from the norm. Most people say headphone "X" has too much bass. I don't think it has enough. Most people say headphone "X" has screeching and harsh highs. I see them as just being detailed and true to sound. See...those that say something has too much bass just don't like hearing stuff the way it was made, I'm convinced of this. If I'm listening to a song on my stereo and my subwoofer is rumbling then that means that sound is there, it exists in the recording, and it was put there on purpose. So why would I not want my headphone to have that same bass response? Most songs I listen to that have that true to created bass on my stereo is often non-existent in most headphones I hear. Why would I want less than there bass? Same with the highs...most people don't seem to know what cymbals and clashes ACTUALLY sound like or I think a lot of the "too harsh" people would know that's what it's supposed to sound like. 
 
People often call me difficult or impossible to please. If that's true so be it. I just look at is me wanting ACCURATE sound. This is why IEM's blew me away. Now granted I've never heard the likes of the highest-end planars and Stax...can't comment on $2,000 headphones...but I've either heard extensively or have owned a lot of the headphones on this list (HE-400/500, HD600/650, LCD-2, etc) and none of them give me that "true to recording" feel...or at least so I realized after getting into IEM's. 
 
So yeah...when I see someone claim the HE-400 to be the better headphone over multi-driver IEM's that just makes me wonder what they're basing that on. As I said the only thing I could see the HE-400 having is a better sound stage...and if that's worth it to the reviewer to rank something like that 10's of places higher then so be it. I just think it's unfair to put THAT much weight into that one category and basically ignore everything else. Give anyone the 400's and a pair of custom fitted JH16's for a week and see which they prefer. 
 
I'll leave this here for you to browse:
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/440126/sennheiser-hd800-vs-jh-13-pro-battle-of-the-titans/15

  Go write your own battle of the flaghips then, put jh16 on top, w4 on the top 10 and the he-400 on the #50 spot.

You're missing the point. If the reviewer is going to be biased and not judge the IEM's on the same level as the headphones then why even have them? It's clear that he prefers fullsized headphones over IEM's despite the detail and accuracy of the IEM's. It's like having a Chevy fan do a review between a Corvette and a Mustang. The love for the Corvette is already there and no matter how good the Mustang is it's just simply, naturally, not looked at as being the same. Not on the same level. It's already been subconsciously knocked down a peg or two.
 
In the end I just think all it does for people that may find this is paint IEM's in a bad light. Being someone that stuck with, exclusively, fullsized cans for years and years I never knew how good IEM's could be. I always thought of them them as having tiny sound and that they just simply couldn't output the bass and levels of detail I would want. Now I know that the old me could not have been any more wrong if I tried! IEM's are the best sound I've heard. Headphones sound great, for sure, and I by no means have given up on them, but if I want the best sound I reach for the likes of my JH16's every time. 
 
Again, it's all personal opinion and I have no problem seeing both sides of the coin...but just seeing where some of the headphones were in relation to some of the IEM's just gave me a gut "What?" feeling which told me that realistically something just wasn't right.

 

[AndroidVageta]

Who isn't biased?

I wouldn't be if I had the means to do something like this. Take each item for what it is and base it on how it sounds...not what I would prefer. I think there is a difference between subjective and objective listening when it comes to reviewing headphones. I like my more objective reviewers. I guess that's why ranking them like this irritates me some. Some headphones don't seem to review as well as others yet they're higher on the list. 

 

[money4me247]

Price does not directly correlate to sound quality. IEMS are inherently more expensive than fullsized headphones for the same sound quality though. Just because an IEM is $500+ does not really mean they will out perform $200 fullsized headphones.

Sounds like your complaints with the he400 is more about their sound signature. also, the he400 needs certain amount of amplification to really shine.

Just depends on preference but if you like a more neutral sound instead of the he400's sound sig, u definitely find a neutral fullsized that sonically outperforms an IEM at a cheaper price.

 

[AndroidVageta]

Price does not directly correlate to sound quality. IEMS are inherently more expensive than fullsized headphones for the same sound quality though. Just because an IEM is $500+ does not really mean they will out perform $200 fullsized headphones.

Sounds like your complaints with the he400 is more about their sound signature. also, the he400 needs certain amount of amplification to really shine.

Just depends on preference but if you like a more neutral sound instead of the he400's sound sig, u definitely find a neutral fullsized that sonically outperforms an IEM at a cheaper price.

See I have found this often to be the complete opposite. I find that IEM's vs. fullsize in the same price bracket always goes to IEM's. 
 
Find me a pair of $40 cans that sound as good as the Carbo Tenores. Find me a pair of cans for $150 that sound as good as the Altone200. 
 
Find me a pair of cans that beat a respectively priced pair of IEM's for anywhere under $1,000, really. I've yet to hear them. 
 
As I linked for Jay567:
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/440126/sennheiser-hd800-vs-jh-13-pro-battle-of-the-titans/15
 
That's HD800 vs. JH13 by those that own both...everyone that owned both preferred the JH13's. Why? Because IEM's are simply better when it comes to quality and accuracy of sound. Not to say that fullsized are bad or anything...quite the contrary...but generally speaking IEM's give you a lot more over all. 
 
I mean really, pick up a pair of the Carbo Tenore and find me a pair of cans for the same price that come close in sound.

 

[money4me247]

lol I completely disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion

 

[AndroidVageta]

lol I completely disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion

Well can you name some cans for the same price as the buds I have above that sound better? That link I provided has several HD800 owners that think the JH13 sounds better...and that was before the Freqphase version and before many other, better, IEM's have come out. 
 
If you just want to leave it at "that's your opinion" then fine but that's not exactly compelling for your side of the argument.

 

[money4me247]

Well can you name some cans for the same price as the buds I have above that sound better? That link I provided has several HD800 owners that think the JH13 sounds better...and that was before the Freqphase version and before many other, better, IEM's have come out. 

If you just want to leave it at "that's your opinion" then fine but that's not exactly compelling for your side of the argument.

lol well i havent heard the specific iems u listed, and im not rly interested in a point by point argument with you. from my personal experience with $200-$500 IEMs, I found that the majority of nice $200-$300 closed portable headphones are easily sonically superior in a side by side comparision. A open fullsized pair of headphones that is properly amped... not even close.

of course, you can prefer a specific model due to sound signature differences, but from a sound quality perspective, I am pretty confident that you can always find a better sounding full-sized model at the same price.

IEMs drivers inherently have limitations and trade-offs that audio engineers have to design around. Not the case with full-sized drivers.

If you are comparing IEMs to an underpowered fullsized headphones both direct from a portable player, then sure, an IEM will be better for that application.

 

[preproman]

  See I have found this often to be the complete opposite. I find that IEM's vs. fullsize in the same price bracket always goes to IEM's. 
 
Find me a pair of $40 cans that sound as good as the Carbo Tenores. Find me a pair of cans for $150 that sound as good as the Altone200. 
 
Find me a pair of cans that beat a respectively priced pair of IEM's for anywhere under $1,000, really. I've yet to hear them. 
 
As I linked for Jay567:
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/440126/sennheiser-hd800-vs-jh-13-pro-battle-of-the-titans/15
 
That's HD800 vs. JH13 by those that own both...everyone that owned both preferred the JH13's. Why? Because IEM's are simply better when it comes to quality and accuracy of sound. Not to say that fullsized are bad or anything...quite the contrary...but generally speaking IEM's give you a lot more over all. 
 
I mean really, pick up a pair of the Carbo Tenore and find me a pair of cans for the same price that come close in sound.

 
I liked the way you gave specifics.  The best way to present your case.

 

[AndroidVageta]

   
I liked the way you gave specifics.  The best way to present your case.

Thanks!

 

[AndroidVageta]

lol well i havent heard the specific iems u listed, and im not rly interested in a point by point argument with you. from my personal experience with $200-$500 IEMs, I found that the majority of nice $200-$300 closed portable headphones are easily sonically superior in a side by side comparision. A open fullsized pair of headphones that is properly amped... not even close.

of course, you can prefer a specific model due to sound signature differences, but from a sound quality perspective, I am pretty confident that you can always find a better sounding full-sized model at the same price.

IEMs drivers inherently have limitations and trade-offs that audio engineers have to design around. Not the case with full-sized drivers.

If you are comparing IEMs to an underpowered fullsized headphones both direct from a portable player, then sure, an IEM will be better for that application.

No need to have a point by point discussion...but you made a pretty blanket statement that I don't think is right (nor would a lot of people) and was just asking for examples. What IEM's in various price ranges have you heard vs. comparatively priced fullsized? I've heard a LOT. Like, 75% of the stuff on this list. IEM's are a clear winner 90% of the time except with soundstage (as I've mentioned previously). 
 
Just saying that if you want to present that argument I don't think it's out of line or asking too much to know what exactly you're referencing.

 

[preproman]

  Thanks! I like to call specifics "examples". The only way to present a case, no? Would you have liked me to say "compare some random $40 IEM and find me a random comparable fullsize for the same price"?
 
C'mooon...

 
Hey - I was giving you your props..

 

[AndroidVageta]

   
Hey - I was giving you your props..

Ahh my bad. For some reason I read that as more a smart ass response haha! 

 
Been in a cruddy mood today...Black Friday has me drained...edited to be a more appropriate response.

 

[jay567]

I do agree on the fact that usually at the lowest price bracket, iems sound better than the full sized can counterparts. However, I do believe the sound quality cap is much higher than on iems. Same goes for hp vs speakers. But at 150 dollar price range, although I haven't heard the specific Altone200 itself, with the extensive number of universal iems I've tried, I doubt it would be able to touch the HE400 technically nor can any other universals upto the SE846 price range/sound quality.

Also, alot of people that prefer IEMs to HPs include the practicality when judging their preference. You showed few examples but the truth is majority of people on this forum prefer the sound quality from a full sized can whilst appreciating what their CIEMs can do and perhaps use it more than the cans due to their portability etc. Also, do note that this was when the JH13 hype was beyond ridiculous too. Guess what? Look at their profiles now. Of about 5 people that were raving on how great the JH13s were in 2009, they are back using full sized cans again!

You mention iems have better accuracy and quality of sound. Well how accurate is the sound when the soundstage on an iem is nowhere near the original recorded soundstage? The point I am trying to make is, everything is subjective and as I said, the rank comes down to personal preferences afterall. There's no right or wrong answers unlike what you are trying to portray. No, IEMs are not "simply better" than full sized cans, vice versa. I guess that's what you want to hear at the end of the day. Whichever kool aid you wanna drink, is up to you. But don't expect everyone to start drinking the same kool aid as you.

 

[money4me247]

  No need to have a point by point discussion...but you made a pretty blanket statement that I don't think is right (nor would a lot of people) and was just asking for examples. What IEM's in various price ranges have you heard vs. comparatively priced fullsized? I've heard a LOT. Like, 75% of the stuff on this list. IEM's are a clear winner 90% of the time except with soundstage (as I've mentioned previously). 
 
Just saying that if you want to present that argument I don't think it's out of line or asking too much to know what exactly you're referencing.

 
lol it is pretty commonly accepted that full-sized over-ear outperforms other types of headphones in the same price bracket. The comment that IEMs are almost always sonically superior to full-sized headphones would be the comment I am more skeptical of. While you may personally prefer an IEM over a full-sized pair of headphones, I find it hard to believe from my personal experience that IEMs can actually technically outperform good full-sized pair of headphones.
 
IEM drivers and design have to compensate for their small size. both dynamic drivers and balanced armatures of IEMs have limitations. While IEM technology has improved significantly over the past few years, but you still are paying a premium for the small size. It is easier to achieve good sound quality with a full-sized driver over micro-drivers. Even the most expensive IEMs have significant sonic limitations. For IEMs, you simply need to find one that makes your sound signature preferences & are comfortable for you personally. You can look at my profile to see which IEMs and headphones I have tried.
 
I agree with @jay567. None of the IEMs I've tried (up to the $500 price point) can match the planar drivers of the HE-400 from a sound quality standpoint. I can understand if you prefer the sound signature of a specific IEM over the HE-400, but the bass quality (detail/texture/extension) of the HE-400 is extremely good. The HE-400's bass quality is unrivaled in the sub-$1000 full-sized open price category (except perhaps the LCD-2 pre-fazor). While the sound stage of the HE-400 is only average for a pair of open headphones, it still easily outperforms all the IEMs I've heard. 
 
There are sound quality attributes that the HE-400 does better than IEMs that you can easily appreciate provided that the HE-400 is properly amped. The fact that your comments about the HE-400 does not mention the other components in your chain or any specific sonic qualities where the HE-400 underperforms makes it hard for me to relate to your statements. The main faults people find with the HE-400 is its unique sound signature and comfort. However, even if you dislike its sound signature or cannot handle its weight, you should still be able to appreciate the HE-400's positive sound quality attributes. Many full-sized headphones require amplification, so comparing not-properly amped full-sized against IEMs out of the same portable source would be a disservice.
 
You mention how specific IEMs are a great value and have amazing sound quality, and I am not going to argue with that. If you prefer IEMs over full-sized headphones, that's cool too. I just personally had a very different experience and disagree with your stance especially regarding your comparative sound quality claims between full-sized and IEMs. I view statements that consist of having tried two headphones and claiming one to be better to simply be a subjective personal preference, and those comments do not really give any insight on relative sound quality performance. Statements about how a specific pair of headphones actually outperform another pair of headphones from a sound quality standpoint requires discussion of the source, components, and a comparison of specific sonic attributes.
 
There are a variety of pros and cons of every pair of headphones, so it is a bit silly to claim that a certain pair of headphones or a broad product category is the 'best.' Personal preference, comfort, and application plays the biggest role in deciding which pair of headphones are best suited for you. From my personal experience, full-sized headphones provide certain significant sonic advantages as well as comfort advantages over IEMs, so I prefer full-sized. I also have not personally heard an IEM (though have not broken the $500 price point for IEMs) that can actually technically outperform my full-sized headphone set-up.