[waynes world]

You can start by reading a lot of impression and review from this thread and pick one (or a few) that is most likely going to fit your taste, but ultimately the answer is: buy enough of them and find out for yourself.

Spoken like a true master enabler!

 

[Nool]

Thanks a lot for your replies! While I've unfortunately never heard any of the ER series I see that crinacle rates them highly, and comparing his reviews against other stuff that I do own I can get a good enough idea what they're capable of. I'm glad to know they have great attack & some treble extension, which is usually what I find lacking, and so long as there's some proper timbre I'm happy. The fact they can hold up against the ER4's kinda says enough as is.. knowing the ST-10 traits against it is very helpful, thanks for your thorough input.

@ClieOS do you have a source on your statement that the 40ohm ST-10s tuning might get a revision? Also, is the treble on the 150ohm the same as the (current) 40ohm? I prefer a more bright presentation, by the sound of it I might prefer the original ST-10, but if they brighten the 40ohm ST-10s then that'd be an obvious preference.

I'm not totally sold on the 150ohm variant since I use a smartphone with a headphone jack, but I might wind up having to grab a USB-C dongle (either the apple or meizu) if I ever upgrade my phone.. so kinda at an impasse there. Does anyone have any idea what the difference in power consumption would be between the 40 and 150ohm? Or would the dongle consume the same amount of power regardless? If it's negligible then I'd probably just get the 150ohm and reap the benefits of a cleaner source as well. Never had to drive any high-impedance stuff before, much less from a smartphone so I'm not really sure what the tradeoffs are. If anyone has any experience on that I'd be grateful to hear it, I'd rather not have to get a DAP and carry two devices.

 

[ClieOS]

@ClieOS do you have a source on your statement that the 40ohm ST-10s tuning might get a revision? Also, is the treble on the 150ohm the same as the (current) 40ohm? I prefer a more bright presentation, by the sound of it I might prefer the original ST-10, but if they brighten the 40ohm ST-10s then that'd be an obvious preference.

Straight from the mouth of the maker. In fact, I have a pair of the retuned ST-10S Black Silver coming in about 2 weeks or so and I'll be able to compare it to the first version.

Treble extension on the ST-10S Black Gold is almost just as good the original ST-10, but not as sparkly. If you really prefer a brighter sound, then get the original ST-10 - or wait for my impression on the new ST-10S Black SIlver.

I'm not totally sold on the 150ohm variant since I use a smartphone with a headphone jack, but I might wind up having to grab a USB-C dongle (either the apple or meizu) if I ever upgrade my phone.. so kinda at an impasse there. Does anyone have any idea what the difference in power consumption would be between the 40 and 150ohm? Or would the dongle consume the same amount of power regardless? If it's negligible then I'd probably just get the 150ohm and reap the benefits of a cleaner source as well. Never had to drive any high-impedance stuff before, much less from a smartphone so I'm not really sure what the tradeoffs are. If anyone has any experience on that I'd be grateful to hear it, I'd rather not have to get a DAP and carry two devices.

A really good Type-C USB DAC dongle will drive ST-10S Black Gold just fine. I am using Audirect HiliDAC atom Pro and Beam 2 - both drive ST-10S Black Gold quite good, specially Beam 2. Of course, the more powerful the dongle, the higher power it will required and the less battery life you will get out of it. I don't have the Meizu but I am going to get an Apple Type-C dongle soon. Hopefully I'll be able to talk more about it once I received it.

 

[BloodyPenguin]

Enjoying the unique airy sound of the ISN Audio Rambo II.

--

 

[Nool]

Straight from the mouth of the maker. In fact, I have a pair of the retuned ST-10S Black Silver coming in about 2 weeks or so and I'll be able to compare it to the first version.

Treble extension on the ST-10S Black Gold is almost just as good the original ST-10, but not as sparkly. If you really prefer a brighter sound, then get the original ST-10 - or wait for my impression on the new ST-10S Black SIlver.



A really good Type-C USB DAC dongle will drive ST-10S Black Gold just fine. I am using Audirect HiliDAC atom Pro and Beam 2 - both drive ST-10S Black Gold quite good, specially Beam 2. Of course, the more powerful the dongle, the higher power it will required and the less battery life you will get out of it. I don't have the Meizu but I am going to get an Apple Type-C dongle soon. Hopefully I'll be able to talk more about it once I received it.

Awesome, thanks for reading all that. I'll hang back for now and wait for your thoughts on the new 40ohm ST-10s retuning. I'd also be interested to know how well the apple dongle handles it; remember reading somewhere it only does well up to 50ohm.

A bit off-topic but if anyone's searching, I did find this chart of dongle power consumption. I'll probably be going for the meizu pro based on reviews.

 

[RobinFood]

Market as a whole is moving away from small amp but focusing mainly on pig-tail style, no battery DAC/amp or full sized portable, battery powered DAC/amp in general. The formal is going to eat into your battery life (especially the really good one) while the later isn't generally going to be particularly cheap. As a long term investment, I am more inclined to recommend a decent full-sized DAC/amp instead. Generally you will find really good offer at around $150 range.

What would you recommend for either a pig-tail or full-size model?
Also, how would they compare to the ES100? Almost everything seems to be rated in mW @ 16 ohms, but the ES100 shows the power in Vp @ 16 ohms, but I have no idea even after google searches how comparable it is, and if something would actually be an upgrade to just using the ES100 in DAC mode.

 

[ClieOS]

What would you recommend for either a pig-tail or full-size model?
Also, how would they compare to the ES100? Almost everything seems to be rated in mW @ 16 ohms, but the ES100 shows the power in Vp @ 16 ohms, but I have no idea even after google searches how comparable it is, and if something would actually be an upgrade to just using the ES100 in DAC mode.

Radsone only gives max Vpp without any load, which is about as helpful as asking a blind man on how to drive. Proper power is measured under loud, with a 1kHz pure sine tone and THD+N = 1% (or less). However, we do know what DAC/amp chip it uses (dual AK4375A), so we can estimate - even at the best condition, that ES100 should only manage to be around 40mW @ 16ohm (THD+N = 0.1%) as it is the hardware limit of the chip.

Pig-tail has the benefit of being small, doesn't need to be recharged and generally will support up to 24/384 PCM / DSD64 (*at least the newer pig-tail should). Some even do MQA. The downside is of course they will eat into battery life and there is a limitation of how much power thry can deliver, mostly because that's only that much power can be draw from a USB connection. Full-sized will offer more power without the worry of power draw, just as good a SQ if not batter. Some also offer MQA and even EQ. As a long term investment, full-sized makes more sense as you are more likely going to replace your smartphone in a year or two rather than the DAC/amp, also the fact that you might move on to other headphones in the future. Full-sized will allow more capability for you to choose, instead of need to upgrade the DAC/amp once you change smartphone or have something harder to drive. Pig-tail on the other hand offer convenience. My advice is for you to choose something you are most likely going to use often and keep longer. If you don't foreseen yourself carrying a full-sized around, then it doesn't make sense to buy one just so you don't use it. You will want to put practicality / usability as your top priority.

Anyway, ES100 is limited to 16/44.1 as an USB DAC, which is enough but not going to suffice if you move to Hi-res in the future. For pig-tail, the best I current have is the Audirect HiliDAC Beam 2, which sounds as good as it measured and support full MQA. As full-sized, I am using iFi xDSD at the moment and quite happy with it. But if you don't really need Bluetooth, the newer iFi Hip-DAC will probably be a better choice as it is more or less a scaled down version of xDSD. Topping NX4 also seems to be quite popular, though I have no experience with the brand, just that it has gained a reputation for offering really good value for money.

 

[Nimweth]

ST10s black/silver arrived today. I am A-B'ing them with the original green ST-10. The newer model is better in every way. Soundstage is much bigger and more spacious with more air. Bass is improved and has more "welly" as well as improved texture. Mids are gloriously neutral and blend into the treble wonderfully. Treble itself is open, detailed and very extended. I am wearing them cable down with left and right reversed, one set of full foams and the ear hooks from the ST-10 (no ear hooks provided with ST-10s!). I'm going to be listening to a lot of music with these! The ST-10s combines the best of the ST-10 and M1Pro and then improves on that!

 

[RobinFood]

Radsone only gives max Vpp without any load, which is about as helpful as asking a blind man on how to drive. Proper power is measured under loud, with a 1kHz pure sine tone and THD+N = 1% (or less). However, we do know what DAC/amp chip it uses (dual AK4375A), so we can estimate - even at the best condition, that ES100 should only manage to be around 40mW @ 16ohm (THD+N = 0.1%) as it is the hardware limit of the chip.

Pig-tail has the benefit of being small, doesn't need to be recharged and generally will support up to 24/384 PCM / DSD64 (*at least the newer pig-tail should). Some even do MQA. The downside is of course they will eat into battery life and there is a limitation of how much power thry can deliver, mostly because that's only that much power can be draw from a USB connection. Full-sized will offer more power without the worry of power draw, just as good a SQ if not batter. Some also offer MQA and even EQ. As a long term investment, full-sized makes more sense as you are more likely going to replace your smartphone in a year or two rather than the DAC/amp, also the fact that you might move on to other headphones in the future. Full-sized will allow more capability for you to choose, instead of need to upgrade the DAC/amp once you change smartphone or have something harder to drive. Pig-tail on the other hand offer convenience. My advice is for you to choose something you are most likely going to use often and keep longer. If you don't foreseen yourself carrying a full-sized around, then it doesn't make sense to buy one just so you don't use it. You will want to put practicality / usability as your top priority.

Anyway, ES100 is limited to 16/44.1 as an USB DAC, which is enough but not going to suffice if you move to Hi-res in the future. For pig-tail, the best I current have is the Audirect HiliDAC Beam 2, which sounds as good as it measured and support full MQA. As full-sized, I am using iFi xDSD at the moment and quite happy with it. But if you don't really need Bluetooth, the newer iFi Hip-DAC will probably be a better choice as it is more or less a scaled down version of xDSD. Topping NX4 also seems to be quite popular, though I have no experience with the brand, just that it has gained a reputation for offering really good value for money.

Thank you. That xDSD looks nice but is pretty pricey!
I think I would be more interested in a pig tail style dac-amp. Would the beam 2 be powerful enough to drive something heavy like the VE Zen 2?
I saw that something cheaper like the Hidizs Sonata HD has a power rating of 2*60 mW@32 ohms. Does that mean it has a power rating of 120 mW@32 ohms? Would that be powerful enough for more demanding earbuds?

Is there any lag with the beam 2? Is there any pig tail Dac-amps that are powerful enough and also act as a Bluetooth transmitter?

 

[ClieOS]

Thank you. That xDSD looks nice but is pretty pricey!
I think I would be more interested in a pig tail style dac-amp. Would the beam 2 be powerful enough to drive something heavy like the VE Zen 2?
I saw that something cheaper like the Hidizs Sonata HD has a power rating of 2*60 mW@32 ohms. Does that mean it has a power rating of 120 mW@32 ohms? Would that be powerful enough for more demanding earbuds?

Is there any lag with the beam 2? Is there any pig tail Dac-amps that are powerful enough and also act as a Bluetooth transmitter?

Haven't tried Zen 2.0 on Beam 2 yet, I'll get back to you on that.

2*60mW means 60mW on each channel, you can't add them up together. Power rating usually only applies to single channel. However, you need to be careful on reading specs some (*most) manufacturers like to quote number directly from the data sheet of the chip they used instead of making actual measurement. Quite often is that the real power output is less than what they claims as data sheet number is measured under ideal condition that usually is not the case on the product. This is especially true if manufacturer doesn't list down the testing condition.

Lag is more or less an BT / wireless issue. It is not a problem for directly connected pig-tail DAC/amp. The only BT adapter that has features as good as pigtail DAC/amp is FiiO BTR5.

 

[RobinFood]

Haven't tried Zen 2.0 on Beam 2 yet, I'll get back to you on that.

2*60mW means 60mW on each channel, you can't add them up together. Power rating usually only applies to single channel. However, you need to be careful on reading specs some (*most) manufacturers like to quote number directly from the data sheet of the chip they used instead of making actual measurement. Quite often is that the real power output is less than what they claims as data sheet number is measured under ideal condition that usually is not the case on the product. This is especially true if manufacturer doesn't list down the testing condition.

Lag is more or less an BT / wireless issue. It is not a problem for directly connected pig-tail DAC/amp. The only BT adapter that has features as good as pigtail DAC/amp is FiiO BTR5.

The BTR5 is almost the same price as the Beam 2, and seems almost as powerful. Would the BTR5 be powerful enough to run 150 ohm and 300 ohm earbuds in balance mode? Do you know if you can use it as a dac-Bluetooth transmitter to get ldac quality out of a windows device, for example?

My Shanling M0 in USB dac mode had worst lag than in Bluetooth, like almost 2 seconds. I was very surprised, but don't want to take a chance anything will be that slow since I like gaming with earbuds.

 

[JackSkully]

The BTR5 is almost the same price as the Beam 2, and seems almost as powerful. Would the BTR5 be powerful enough to run 150 ohm and 300 ohm earbuds in balance mode? Do you know if you can use it as a dac-Bluetooth transmitter to get ldac quality out of a windows device, for example?

My Shanling M0 in USB dac mode had worst lag than in Bluetooth, like almost 2 seconds. I was very surprised, but don't want to take a chance anything will be that slow since I like gaming with earbuds.

It can definitely go up to 150ohm and I think about 300 ohm balanced I'm not sure. But it can definitely power my 300ohm headphones

 

[ClieOS]

The BTR5 is almost the same price as the Beam 2, and seems almost as powerful. Would the BTR5 be powerful enough to run 150 ohm and 300 ohm earbuds in balance mode? Do you know if you can use it as a dac-Bluetooth transmitter to get ldac quality out of a windows device, for example?

My Shanling M0 in USB dac mode had worst lag than in Bluetooth, like almost 2 seconds. I was very surprised, but don't want to take a chance anything will be that slow since I like gaming with earbuds.

Just tried Beam 2 with Zen 2.0, and I can listen to it comfortably at around 60% volume, so volume is not an issue. BTR5 can drive Zen 2.0 even better than Beam2, so it is also not a problem.

There is currently no USB BT transmitter / dongle that can transmit LDAC. aptX-HD is the best we can do now. I'll imagine Shanling M0 has lagging issue mainly because it has an underlying OS running the device itself as well as handling USB connection. A BT dongle doesn't use OS but instead relies on hardware SoC for a more direct connection and thus should not suffer any lagging issue.

 

[DBaldock9]

Just tried Beam 2 with Zen 2.0, and I can listen to it comfortably at around 60% volume, so volume is not an issue. BTR5 can drive Zen 2.0 even better than Beam2, so it is also not a problem.

There is currently no USB BT transmitter / dongle that can transmit LDAC. aptX-HD is the best we can do now. I'll imagine Shanling M0 has lagging issue mainly because it has an underlying OS running the device itself as well as handling USB connection. A BT dongle doesn't use OS but instead relies on hardware SoC for a more direct connection and thus should not suffer any lagging issue.

I've seen it mentioned, on a different Forum, that someone had taken the Android / Linux LDAC BT transmitter code, and got it working on a Raspberry Pi.
.
But, I haven't seen any write-ups, that detailed the hardware and software configuration steps needed to get the USB -> BT LDAC device working.
.
A Raspberry Pi (running its variety of embedded Linux) would inevitably have latency similar to the M0, which also runs embedded Linux.

Building / selling a stand-alone BT LDAC Transmitter would probably require licensing from Sony (creators of LDAC).

 

[Nimweth]

Aw.. A couple weeks back I ordered the st-10s black silver. I'm wondering if I should of just waited for the revision. Oh well.

Don't worry. I have my ST-10s Black/Silver and they outperform the original ST-10. They take the neutrality and soundstage of the M1 Pro and the authority of the green ST-10 and improve on them. Bass is superb and natural timbre very impressive.