[Ronion]

Oh man, I really admire your persistence, but I don't get where does your passive aggression comes from, so I would not get into any personal dispute.

Speaking of things based strictly on personal beliefs and no facts to back it up - I don't know where did you get this information from but I don't have any interest (financial margin, cut etc) in the sales of Gen 3. There was an interest in me participating in the project though - I gained a lot of knowledge based on the experience in buds making, modding IEMs, headphones and reviewing of dozens of them from one of the most knowledgeable guy in the hobby I met. Ok, I also received a gift free of charge in form of a one piece of the Alter Rider 3 for the cooperation, but forgive me that.

In regards to scattering and your analogy.
I am not an acoustic engineer, but from your previous post I understand that neither are you. I assume then that you and I base our knowledge on the practice and the easily available sources, which very often simplify the reality for sake of understanding.

From higher up in the field in acoustics I found some interesting theory of Rayleigh scattering on rough surfaces that seems applicable to the phenomenon that happens scenario inside of the shell. You may be interested in reading about that. I won't claim I understand completely this theory because I dont., But I find it somewhat interesting in regards to what was observed.
Please find attached screen below (Chapter 9 Scattering of Sound at Rough Surfaces, Fundamentals of Ocean Acoustics, Brekhovskikh et al).
The Rayleigh parameter mentioned in this screen for the design of shell is calculated to be estimately between 0.1 - 0.74 depending on the grazing angle and for the frequencies in range 10kHz to 20kHz. Is it a value <<1 making it discardable? It is also obviously not >>1. So we are somewhere in between. Interpret it as you wish.

Have a nice weekend

No Rayleigh scattering is going to even come close to mattering here--not that it even matters because that's not diffusion. Not that diffusion would even help in this circumstance and especially in the region of 10-20kHz and doubly so in an earbud shell. You won't be able to get around this facts no matter how hard you try because you are wrong. You too can keep digging of you like.

Sorry, I thought you were making these shells and selling them to the person I can't mention and thus the Red Herring you're offering?

 

[FlacFan]

Fair warning: I cannot add any scientific knowledge to the discussion at hand, even though I am a computer scientist and physicist.
However, think about it, there are plenty of people firmly believing that changing a cable adds bass, treble, soundstage, you name it. Arguing the contrary is a waste of energy. There are even people who think the Earth is flat.
This is hard to digest, but for your own sanity you have to just let go at some point.

BTW, @Ronion - the story from the elephant in a soda can made me laugh for several minutes. You see I am a visual guy...

Cheers.

 

[Pylaczynski]

Sorry, I thought you were making these shells and selling them to the person I can't mention and thus the Red Herring you're offering?

No, I am not making and selling those shells to Riku, buds are just my hobby not a source of profit.

As my last take on that very controversial topic which let's agree to disagree - those pyramids does definitely something to the perceived sound which can be measured on graphs (as opposed to the mentioned cables) and you may argue where does that come from. Let the reviews and user impressions decide on how those sound and wether it is worth a hassle

Here is the picture of the pair I have. That would be purely subjective and biased take, but I think the comfort is stellar especially for people like me that find MX500 too large or painful to wear

 

[Ronion]

No, I am not making and selling those shells to Riku, buds are just my hobby not a source of profit.

As my last take on that very controversial topic which let's agree to disagree - those pyramids does definitely something to the perceived sound which can be measured on graphs (as opposed to the mentioned cables) and you may argue where does that come from. Let the reviews and user impressions decide on how those sound and wether it is worth a hassle

Here is the picture of the pair I have. That would be purely subjective and biased take, but I think the comfort is stellar especially for people like me that find MX500 too large or painful to wear

I think we both agree that the advertising point is incorrect and an obvious false claim and that the dots do something. What are we disagreeing on?

I'll explain my side even though I've gotten in trouble for it in the past. I'd rather be right and in trouble than than wrong and applauded:

If I sound passive aggressive to you I apologize. It's all meant to be very straight forward and clear. I'm just not a big fan of this sort of behavior or the defense and/or denial of it. No one should be in my opinion. If you've been on the other end of that sort of thing (making purchases on false claims), you'd understand why if it isn't intuitively obvious. I've been burnt buy unethical sales tactic several times in my life. Wether you knew it or not is inconsequential just like the Hale-Bop cult though admittedly this is less harmful but could definitely cause the newer folks or the poorer folks in the hobby to get jaded. Especially since you know the psychoacoustics of the situation--which if you don't want to take my word for it, it's easy to look up. It's all well known. IOW, these sound just like you would expect given the measurements. Nothing magical or innovative going on behind that driver. It should be corrected apologetically and humbly and should have been straight away instead of trying to argue. Same goes for the logical fallacy in the argument. I bet you would have seen a whole different me if you(collectively) had done just that. I am the first one to help others and everyone in this thread who knows me will vouch for that, but I do expect honesty and respect--not just for me, but for others as well especially if you are selling something. As a small business that mostly sells to "friends", you'd think that sort of thing would come naturally. Several of the DIY sellers have used unethical sales to their "friends" in multiple ways and its continuation annoys me. I'd be willing to go into all those ways if you'd like, but I don't want to get this thread any more negative than I have. When I see this stuff, I feel compelled to point it out.

I did give praise on the design of that shell ergonomically speaking, just like its commercial inspiration. The downside is what you measured--though to be honest I didn't think it would be that dramatic. Sound is as important to me as fit. If you were doing those for yourself and there was no commercial interest involved, I could tell you how to fix them. I've also declined enabling these fine folks. I've given them enough.

 

[o0genesis0o]

What’s the point to argue? As I mentioned in the previous post:

I think there are two alternative statements:

1. Adding those nubs make the earbuds sound better
2. (a) Adding those nubs help diffuse the sound, (b) which makes the buds sound better.

Now we also have measurements from the same rig, with and without the treatment (aka the nubs):

This is the graph of FR of the same base geometry shell one with and one without the pyramids.
If you would ask about the differences of the internal cavity volume it is below 5% by design (+/- some deviation from the printing process tolerances themself) so not really that significant. The base internal cavity volume is at ~464,82 mm^3. No furhter differences, same driver, same tuning, same cable D)

Assuming that all other factors were controlled, then it is clear, both subjectively (previously from @baskingshark impression) and objectively that these nubs do something to the sound, meaning it is not inconsequential, car driving over a coin. Arguing against that is arguing against the presented evidences, unless one turns their attack towards the validity of the evidence itself. Then there is no settling in this case.

Now, what exactly do those nubs do to change the sound, what physical mechanism is at work here, is up to the debate and Riku should consider carefully. If he attributes that change to whatever diffusion, he might double down to improve that diffusion in the next version, possibly without any result.

I personally appreciate people who tinker and design and try to do something new. If it were me, I’ll slap a 300ohm LCP driver on MX500 shells and call it a day, since I’m lazy

 

[Ronion]

What’s the point to argue? As I mentioned in the previous post:



Now we also have measurements from the same rig, with and without the treatment (aka the nubs):



Assuming that all other factors were controlled, then it is clear, both subjectively (previously from @baskingshark impression) and objectively that these nubs do something to the sound, meaning it is not inconsequential, car driving over a coin. Arguing against that is arguing against the presented evidences, unless one turns their attack towards the validity of the evidence itself. Then there is no settling in this case.

Now, what exactly do those nubs do to change the sound, what physical mechanism is at work here, is up to the debate and Riku should consider carefully. If he attributes that change to whatever diffusion, he might double down to improve that diffusion in the next version, possibly without any result.

I personally appreciate people who tinker and design and try to do something new. If it were me, I’ll slap a 300ohm LCP driver on MX500 shells and call it a day, since I’m lazy

The point still is that they are not causing diffusion as claimed and even have some pseudo-trademark to make it seem like they were researched and in some way unique. The measurement say they make an already bright bud even brighter. Brighter headphone’s have been shown to have a more spacious presentation which is the pseudo-trademark is suppose to cause. You could say it does—but not because of diffusion or anything unique. It’s just due to brightness. Excess high frequency is not only intolerable to a lot of ears, but potentially harmful and likely the reason the body shuns it. Not everyone has this same threshold it would seem or they believed in the trademark as well. There’s many ways to add brightness and there’s so evidence that this method of adding brightness is better than any other or in anyway unique. The one thing we know for sure is that they are not causing diffusion—thus the coin in the road analogy: the coin is too small to dramatically effect the car’s trajectory just the same as the little dots are not going to effect the trajectory of a 1,000 Hz tone. If he had called them SoundBright Dots, I’d have no issue with it.

Edit: say you love Blue Oyster Cult and that cowbell was really getting you going. So you turn it up to hear more cowbell. Well the frequencies more harmful to your hearing are going to be blaring by the time you get your cowbell.

 

[o0genesis0o]

I’m not going to review this buds because I’m broke going after MEST III and Helios IEM, but I highly doubt that Riku has that dead ears to tune these stupidly bright like Smabat, not I doubt that @baskingshark would not call out if the tuning is wrong. I did have some problems with tonality with GAS2 buds by Riku, but dead ear brightness is not a problem.

Riku should really double check whether diffusion thingy is the root cause, at least to ensure that future R&D wouldn’t go the wrong way.

Still, I think we are just unnecessarily mean and hostile to the guy for no reason now, especially since none of us has listened to the buds, or even consider buying the buds. it’s not like he charges kilobuck price either. I think the price is decent, the guy is decent, and the product is likely to be decent too.

 

[rprodrigues]

... there are plenty of people firmly believing that changing a cable adds bass, treble, soundstage, you name it. Arguing the contrary is a waste of energy. There are even people who think the Earth is flat.
This is hard to digest, but for your own sanity you have to just let go at some point.

Wise words!

 

[Ronion]

I’m not going to review this buds because I’m broke going after MEST III and Helios IEM, but I highly doubt that Riku has that dead ears to tune these stupidly bright like Smabat, not I doubt that @baskingshark would not call out if the tuning is wrong. I did have some problems with tonality with GAS2 buds by Riku, but dead ear brightness is not a problem.

Riku should really double check whether diffusion thingy is the root cause, at least to ensure that future R&D wouldn’t go the wrong way.

Still, I think we are just unnecessarily mean and hostile to the guy for no reason now, especially since none of us has listened to the buds, or even consider buying the buds. it’s not like he charges kilobuck price either. I think the price is decent, the guy is decent, and the product is likely to be decent too.

I'm sure he fully understands that the 'diffuser' isn't diffusing as does everyone else at this point.

I did say I'd be willing to give them an honest review. Since the maker and I are not buddies, you wouldn't get a falsely positive bias, but I'm sure the maker would fear a falsely negative one. I could assure him that wouldn't happen, but with the insane looking measurements on it and all the other stars aligned... I'm sure he wouldn't send one to me. I would be honest however and if I gave it a good review and showed good measurements I'm sure he'd be the wealthiest and most famous DIY earbud maker. If I gave it a negative review, he could just say "oh, that guy doesn't like me." It's actually impossible for him to lose. Heck, he could even make a bud specially for me that would measure a lot better and no one would be the wiser.

I wouldn't trust his ears much though, he's hyped some pretty mediocre buds in the past. He also sent earbuds to a YouTube (I believe it was the Good Guy, Bad Guy) reviewer that were so microphonic they could not be reviewed... I bought 2 of the buds he shouldn't have hyped, but I have learned. Suffice to say I have less confidence in his ear. I'm far more inclined to trust the measurements especially since those shells should be bright by their build and the dots made them measure brighter. There have been exceedingly positive reviews of that SMABAT buds as well. Maybe because my audiogram says I have the ears of a teenager but the experience of an old man that I find bright to be so bad. Maybe that's why my hearing still tests so well. Hard to say, but if they're good, I'd say it without hesitation. If they're bad, well I'd do the same. It's a win, win for him.

 

[jeejack]

I’m not going to review this buds because I’m broke going after MEST III and Helios IEM, but I highly doubt that Riku has that dead ears to tune these stupidly bright like Smabat, not I doubt that @baskingshark would not call out if the tuning is wrong. I did have some problems with tonality with GAS2 buds by Riku, but dead ear brightness is not a problem.

Riku should really double check whether diffusion thingy is the root cause, at least to ensure that future R&D wouldn’t go the wrong way.

Still, I think we are just unnecessarily mean and hostile to the guy for no reason now, especially since none of us has listened to the buds, or even consider buying the buds. it’s not like he charges kilobuck price either. I think the price is decent, the guy is decent, and the product is likely to be decent too.

What is the price ? If exotic drivers are not used and the price is higher than $40, then the price is no longer decent (for me). There we have cheap shells and cheap cable

 

[o0genesis0o]

What is the price ? If exotic drivers are not used and the price is higher than $40, then the price is no longer decent (for me). There we have cheap shells and cheap cable

https://rikubuds.com/pricing-customisation/

 

[Touchowl]

Genuine question: what's so special about the MX500 shells? Why is that shell reused and replicated so often over any other 2000s earbud?

 

[WoodyLuvr]

Genuine question: what's so special about the MX500 shells? Why is that shell reused and replicated so often over any other 2000s earbud?

The venerable MX500, although debuted by Sennheiser in 2001 and copied like no other earbud design (in it's entirety), was in fact not created by Sennheiser but was fully OEM’d by Foster (along with the AKG K 612) who in-turn had heavily borrowed from Sony's famous Makoto Yamagishi and his team’s Acoustic Turbo Systems heavily used by Sony and Aiwa in the early days of the Golden Age of flathead earbuds. So really there isn’t an earbud model and/or shell type today that isn’t somehow working upon the original pipe, flute, port, vent, and shell systems that Makoto created back in the 1980s.

As much as I do like PK, Bell-Horn (and some Other Variant) shell types for comfort and long listening sessions nothing seems to beat MX when it comes to critical listening. I honestly do believe that the MX plastic shell is unmatched in superb tuning potential and was simply stumbled upon by Foster and Sennheiser by sheer dumb luck as they were definitely targeting price performance over audio performance. There are some interesting stories that the R&D budget for the first Sennheiser MX series earbuds (MX200, MX300, MX400, & MX500) was less than $500 USD and drivers including cabling was only around $2,500 USD! Ridiculous when compared to what Sony and Aiwa spent twenty years earlier on their flathead earbuds R&D which sometimes reached hundreds of thousands of dollars on shells alone!

 

[Ace Bee]

@RikudouGoku makes good buds. I have had two of his, still have the Grand Rider 2, and I will buy again from him because I have faith in his tuning, his ears, and his statements. I believe it is quite a stupidity to cry wolf and holding strong opinions without ever experiencing the product the way it is intended to - by ears, not by eyes.

@Ronion , this is a very hospitable community. Your unnecessary hostile conducts are not at all welcomed here. You have not heard it. Even when presented with proofs that those nubs do alter the sound signature, you started to take things out of context and focused on an entirely different aspect - whereas it was already put in disclaimer that the measurements are not that of the final product, just taken to show the effects of the nubs.

It seems to me that you are a person who loves to declare that you hold the absolute truth, and loves to wave it around to everyone with loud disclaimers: "Look, this is the absolute truth! You must accept it! No no do not come at me with any other statements, this is the absolute truth! You must know it too! You might not realise it, but deep down you have to know that my truth is the very final absolute truth. Do not question."

This is very irritating and cluttering this otherwise wonderful community of discussion with unnecessary useless blabber. Please stop.

 

[Ronion]

@RikudouGoku makes good buds. I have had two of his, still have the Grand Rider 2, and I will buy again from him because I have faith in his tuning, his ears, and his statements. I believe it is quite a stupidity to cry wolf and holding strong opinions without ever experiencing the product the way it is intended to - by ears, not by eyes.

@Ronion , this is a very hospitable community. Your unnecessary hostile conducts are not at all welcomed here. You have not heard it. Even when presented with proofs that those nubs do alter the sound signature, you started to take things out of context and focused on an entirely different aspect - whereas it was already put in disclaimer that the measurements are not that of the final product, just taken to show the effects of the nubs.

It seems to me that you are a person who loves to declare that you hold the absolute truth, and loves to wave it around to everyone with loud disclaimers: "Look, this is the absolute truth! You must accept it! No no do not come at me with any other statements, this is the absolute truth! You must know it too! You might not realise it, but deep down you have to know that my truth is the very final absolute truth. Do not question."

This is very irritating and cluttering this otherwise wonderful community of discussion with unnecessary useless blabber. Please stop.

Sorry that's what you got out of that whole thing. you should reread what I've written as your statements are factually incorrect. It could very easily be viewed in an entirely different light. I've gotten a few PMs saying the exact opposite thing... initially I was just hoping to correct an error regarding basic acoustics by the designer that could actually help him in the future, then it went to exposing predatory sales tactics. Some people appreciated it, others won't. Much like bright earbuds. It depends on what side of the wall you are on.