[o0genesis0o]

At least some differences come in the presentations provided by different driver tyoes and materials. Meaning different note weights and edges, resolution, soundstage, layering, and imaging capabilities, etc.

Edit: I should add that this is my opinion.

I mean all of the physical differences eventually reflect on certain measurements of the whole transducer system, right. Where they are is the question

Say, high resolution might associate with low distortion. Fiio FD5 has excellent distortion profile, outperforming U12t. FD5 is also closely aligned with Harman target, which in theory gives it minimal masking thus excellent resolution. That’s why measurebators at ASR swore that FD5 is the pinnacle and U12t is overpriced audiofool product. Yet I doubt anyone with any honesty can say FD5 is more resolving than U12t in real world listening. So, which measurement truely reflects that difference? I don’t know

 

[JAnonymous5150]

I mean all of the physical differences eventually reflect on certain measurements of the whole transducer system, right. Where they are is the question

Say, high resolution might associate with low distortion. Fiio FD5 has excellent distortion profile, outperforming U12t. FD5 is also closely aligned with Harman target, which in theory gives it minimal masking thus excellent resolution. That’s why measurebators at ASR swore that FD5 is the pinnacle and U12t is overpriced audiofool product. Yet I doubt anyone with any honesty can say FD5 is more resolving than U12t in real world listening. So, which measurement truely reflects that difference? I don’t know

I was trying to say that there are inherent differences in driver types and materials that lead to differences that don't show up in any measurments that I am aware of.

Edit: Again, I'll add that this is just my opinion based on my experiences.

 

[chinmie]

Would you believe me if I said these sound nothing alike?

Here’s 3 150 Ohm drivers:

Nothing alike other than general tonal balance. The one in Red is the HE150. You can see why people keep talking about its bass.

yes, 2D FR would not show the ADSR of each frequency, for instance two earphones might play the same note at the same frequency, but one of them would have slightly longer decay than the other one, which makes the listeners perceive it to be bassier/boomier (because it holds the bass slightly longer)

another factor is for example: playing the same guitar amp with the same speaker, first with the amp 2 meters in front of us at head height, second with the amp 2 meters in front of us but elevated 1 meter higher than the first one.
we can play multiple scenarios with the height, distance, and angle (slightly left/right, etc). all would produce slightly different sound.

also playing the same guitar amp, same speaker type, but one with single speaker, and second with the same speaker but in an array (for instance 4 speaker cabinet). would yield different sounds.

Another interesting find: lately in my local audio community, there's IEM mod by changing the internal wiring with better cables and solder.. usually using popular cheaper IEMs like the Salnotes Zero, Chu, CRA, that kind of stuff.. I've heard this mod years ago, but seems to become popular again now.

my friends and i listened to the modded ones to the stock IEMs, and the general consensus is that the modded ones would sound "cleaner", while the stock ones is like listening to the same music but with added really low pink noise in the background.
the tuning between them are basically the same, and if we measure them (as my friend did) the FR would be similar.
there's also the case of this mods that the sound signature differ from the stock ones, i don't know if it's purely because of the wiring mod, or the modder knocked something up inside that changes the sound.

 

[o0genesis0o]

yes, 2D FR would not show the ADSR of each frequency, for instance two earphones might play the same note at the same frequency, but one of them would have slightly longer decay than the other one, which makes the listeners perceive it to be bassier/boomier (because it holds the bass slightly longer)

another factor is for example: playing the same guitar amp with the same speaker, first with the amp 2 meters in front of us at head height, second with the amp 2 meters in front of us but elevated 1 meter higher than the first one.
we can play multiple scenarios with the height, distance, and angle (slightly left/right, etc). all would produce slightly different sound.

also playing the same guitar amp, same speaker type, but one with single speaker, and second with the same speaker but in an array (for instance 4 speaker cabinet). would yield different sounds.

Another interesting find: lately in my local audio community, there's IEM mod by changing the internal wiring with better cables and solder.. usually using popular cheaper IEMs like the Salnotes Zero, Chu, CRA, that kind of stuff.. I've heard this mod years ago, but seems to become popular again now.

my friends and i listened to the modded ones to the stock IEMs, and the general consensus is that the modded ones would sound "cleaner", while the stock ones is like listening to the same music but with added really low pink noise in the background.
the tuning between them are basically the same, and if we measure them (as my friend did) the FR would be similar.
there's also the case of this mods that the sound signature differ from the stock ones, i don't know if it's purely because of the wiring mod, or the modder knocked something up inside that changes the sound.

So cool to hear about this effect. That reminds me of Sony’s ads of their new TOTL DAP with golden solder joints or something to increase soundstage and dynamic

 

[qua2k]

Offloading a couple more buds that need more use. Posting here first

*Both sold*

 

[Ronion]

Can it be the case that the graph are too smoothened to show the difference, or the rig does not measure finely / accurately enough? I have no doubt that same FR can sound very different, but I wonder where that difference comes from.

These graphs don’t change much d/t smoothing. It really only affects above 4-5kHz. The rig definitely measures accurately enough for frequency response up to 10kHz….

At least some differences come in the presentations provided by different driver tyoes and materials. Meaning different note weights and edges, resolution, soundstage, layering, and imaging capabilities, etc.

Edit: I should add that this is my opinion.

I’m sure it has a lot do with it as well as the magnetic strength particularly at higher excursions.

I mean all of the physical differences eventually reflect on certain measurements of the whole transducer system, right. Where they are is the question

Say, high resolution might associate with low distortion. Fiio FD5 has excellent distortion profile, outperforming U12t. FD5 is also closely aligned with Harman target, which in theory gives it minimal masking thus excellent resolution. That’s why measurebators at ASR swore that FD5 is the pinnacle and U12t is overpriced audiofool product. Yet I doubt anyone with any honesty can say FD5 is more resolving than U12t in real world listening. So, which measurement truely reflects that difference? I don’t know

No one knows, but I’m sure that I would need to measure buds in a far more in depth manner which would require a very quiet environment for buds. I just hope to be able to work on it before long. We do know that human hearing has better frequency resolution at low frequencies and better temporal resolution at high frequencies. So things like bass ‘speed’ are most likely a phenomenon of midrange or even treble characteristics.

The first graph is about decay speed perception. The second is the number of cycles at particular frequencies that are required to detect the sound. At 500 Hz it takes closer to 8 cycles or 16 ms to hear it, while at 5,000 Hz, it takes approx 80 cycles to hear a definite, distinct pitch or 1.6 ms. At 50Hz you’re looking at a whopping 50-60ms to detect it. That’s over 30x the time at 5,000Hz. Speed pretty much has to come from higher in the spectrum.

 

[Ronion]

yes, 2D FR would not show the ADSR of each frequency, for instance two earphones might play the same note at the same frequency, but one of them would have slightly longer decay than the other one, which makes the listeners perceive it to be bassier/boomier (because it holds the bass slightly longer)

another factor is for example: playing the same guitar amp with the same speaker, first with the amp 2 meters in front of us at head height, second with the amp 2 meters in front of us but elevated 1 meter higher than the first one.
we can play multiple scenarios with the height, distance, and angle (slightly left/right, etc). all would produce slightly different sound.

also playing the same guitar amp, same speaker type, but one with single speaker, and second with the same speaker but in an array (for instance 4 speaker cabinet). would yield different sounds.

Another interesting find: lately in my local audio community, there's IEM mod by changing the internal wiring with better cables and solder.. usually using popular cheaper IEMs like the Salnotes Zero, Chu, CRA, that kind of stuff.. I've heard this mod years ago, but seems to become popular again now.

my friends and i listened to the modded ones to the stock IEMs, and the general consensus is that the modded ones would sound "cleaner", while the stock ones is like listening to the same music but with added really low pink noise in the background.
the tuning between them are basically the same, and if we measure them (as my friend did) the FR would be similar.
there's also the case of this mods that the sound signature differ from the stock ones, i don't know if it's purely because of the wiring mod, or the modder knocked something up inside that changes the sound.

I’m sure most of it is to be found in the ADSR domain.

I’m not sure where you are going with the second paragraph because these are all done in the same shell and in the same ear in the same location.

I’m also 100% sure that internal cables matter in the acoustic sense. They can affect the acoust impedance within the shells. I wouldn’t touch the subject of cable “sound” with a ten foot pole. Families have been divided with arguments on the subject. Solder too! Even though I solder with WBT Solder from time to time LOL. I’m not going to say why. All these only have 3 different cables and I’m sure they are not a major factor. I pick them based on their diameter for acoustics reasons.

 

[o0genesis0o]

These graphs don’t change much d/t smoothing. It really only affects above 4-5kHz. The rig definitely measures accurately enough for frequency response up to 10kHz….

I’m sure it has a lot do with it as well as the magnetic strength particularly at higher excursions.

No one knows, but I’m sure that I would need to measure buds in a far more in depth manner which would require a very quiet environment for buds. I just hope to be able to work on it before long. We do know that human hearing has better frequency resolution at low frequencies and better temporal resolution at high frequencies. So things like bass ‘speed’ are most likely a phenomenon of midrange or even treble characteristics.


The first graph is about decay speed perception. The second is the number of cycles at particular frequencies that are required to detect the sound. At 500 Hz it takes closer to 8 cycles or 16 ms to hear it, while at 5,000 Hz, it takes approx 80 cycles to hear a definite, distinct pitch or 1.6 ms. At 50Hz you’re looking at a whopping 50-60ms to detect it. That’s over 30x the time at 5,000Hz. Speed pretty much has to come from higher in the spectrum.

You should do a PhD on this topic Maybe a bit hard to get someone to fund this kind of work, but at the right lab, you might have access to all the necessary instruments. Here are you inventing the rig and using the rig to research at the same time, without a quiet chamber to work with. Hats off to you, sir.

That reminds me, have you considered making a chest with a lot of dampen foams to do the measurements inside? You might be able to get more useful info out of distortion and stuffs there. I've seen Dunu having a couple of those in their factory for QC. A user named Earfonia on ASR also built something similar for measuring IEMs.

 

[Ronion]

Thank you brother. If you only knew how close I just was to getting such access. It’s painful that the guy has decided to stop returning my calls/texts after he got a lot of information from me. I hate to even think about it. To be so close again and to just have someone let me down. He’s got his own battles in life though and I’m hoping it’s just life getting in the way and not something nefarious.

I did have such a device made for recording electric guitar amps. I broke it apart over a decade ago, but I can build it back better now and more specific to this purpose. It’s all just a matter of finding the time. Part of why the situation in my last paragraph would have been so nice. I was going to have access to a legit, TOTL lab with all this stuff at my fingertips.

 

[chinmie]

I’m sure most of it is to be found in the ADSR domain.

I’m not sure where you are going with the second paragraph because these are all done in the same shell and in the same ear in the same location.

I’m also 100% sure that internal cables matter in the acoustic sense. They can affect the acoust impedance within the shells. I wouldn’t touch the subject of cable “sound” with a ten foot pole. Families have been divided with arguments on the subject. Solder too! Even though I solder with WBT Solder from time to time LOL. I’m not going to say why. All these only have 3 different cables and I’m sure they are not a major factor. I pick them based on their diameter for acoustics reasons.

forgive me, i was thinking about the multi driver IEMs and different shells/ nozzle length when I wrote that, not on your test specifically.. so ignore that ramblings

On that internal wiring mod, there is audible difference between modded and unmodded, but I really don't have any opinion on what's really causing it because i have no certifiable knowledge about it.
when my friends introduced me to something like this, i usually stay silent and think to myself "really?"...
and i have met fellow audio hobbyist who follows those more "esoteric things" like audiophile stickers, expensive cables and connectors, etc.
now your explanation are eye opening to me, because it does sound logical. thicker/thinner cables would fill the space inside the earphones differently, and would change the acoustics.

 

[brad86]

Really disappointed in the NiceHCK B40. I love the RY4S Plus, and Fengru DIY Tingo TC200 Pro, but I really struggle to keep the MX500 style in my ears. I'm constantly having to fiddle with them to try and get a perfect fit.

B40 is the absolute perfect shape, and I was so happy to finally have a set that just fit, and didn't need any messing with.
Only problem, they sound terrible. Not just flat, but lacking everything, really. After reading the praise they get here, I was disappointed when I heard them myself. At first, I thought I might have a bad set, but I purchased another from a different Ali seller, and they were the same.

Is there anything with this exact PK fit, around the same sub $15 price, that don't compromise on sound so much ?
If I can get the PK fit, but with the RY4S Plus sound profile, I'll be so happy.

 

[BrunoC]

From my experience, that B40 shape won't ever produce good clear extended treble. Seems that it muffles and warms the sound too much.

It tried several, like the SR2, DIY PK2 and the B40 is one of the best actually.

Maybe the expensive models solve this issue, but why bother when you have loads os cheap MX500 earbuds which produce good extensions on both ends?

 

[brad86]

Absolutely agree on the MX500 style options. I've been pretty blown away by many different pairs. Unfortunately, the size just doesn't fit my ears well. The constant adjustments I'm having to make to get a good fit gets old, very fast.

I guess the larger 15+mm driver of the MX500 style really does make all the difference.

 

[brad86]

Just received my TRN EMAs, ok buds (only like ~$9). Very light, doesn't feel like I am wearing them.

Bass is anemic even for a bud I feel (using Hiegi foams). On busy tracks, it feels like a train wreck. And the "vent" on the bud feels like a fake vent, as only 7 very small dots are even "open". Covering up the "vent" didn't really make a difference in sound to me. Wondering if making an actual hole would help with some bass.

Very much feel like it is a vocals only bud. 4KHz and 2KHz a bit boosted to make vocals sound unatural though.

But then again, this is just $9 and comes with a detachable 2pin cable.

On a side note, does anyone know what driver is possibly in the FENGRU DIY Tingo TC200 Pro Earbuds? https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256...tewayAdapt=glo2usa4itemAdapt&_randl_shipto=US

I forgot I had them laying around and put a hole in them, and now they sound a little too good imo. It previously had almost no bass, but now the bass hits very nicely and added so much soundstage. Feels like they sound more than 2x better than before the "mod".

I have the DIY Tingo TC200 Pro earbuds, and I really like them, but like you said, they do lack in the low end.

Very interested in this hole mod, and would like to try the same. If you don't mind sharing how you did.

 

[Ronion]

Absolutely agree on the MX500 style options. I've been pretty blown away by many different pairs. Unfortunately, the size just doesn't fit my ears well. The constant adjustments I'm having to make to get a good fit gets old, very fast.

I guess the larger 15+mm driver of the MX500 style really does make all the difference.

I’ve lamented the fact that the MX500 has taken over the earbud world. The PK shell is definitely an improvement to my ears and I’ve built some fantastic PK buds. Unfortunately, as far as I know all tHe great PK buds will cost you. Some of the metal shells will offer better comfort. Perhaps going to that $30 mark and getting the HE150 pro would be the better move. The non-pro version has probably the best driver in the 150 ohm category. I don’t know that anyone here has heard this specific version however, but I bet it’s the same driver. The B40 is also just a look alike shell FWIW. Its fit is actually worse than a genuine PK. Oh, and PK shells can most definitely produce great treble. Treble is really a driver and foam cover thing. If you’re not getting enough treble, change your foams. Try something from VE. They make the best foams for treble That I’ve tried.