[Ronion]

Those original Apple earbuds made me swear off earbuds (“forever“ as I thought then).

 

[samandhi]

Also because I believe those earbuds back then sounded so bad, that people have written them off before giving them a chance again.

Doesnt help that a lot of brands out there are using the term earbud, when they actually mean iem..
(like AKG)

Agree with this.

Didn't think of that aspect, but you are totally right. Here in the US doing a search for earbuds is all but impossible, since it mostly brings up IEMs and TWS nowadays...

You cant really compare the seal aspect like that, they are entirely different in that regard.

You can if you take into account that (while I know and you know they don't correlate to one another); people in general are uneducated about their products, and if knowing they have been told that a better seal = better sound, they see earbuds that don't seal in any way, think they must sound bad, and pass on them.

If we are talking about acoustic/vocal music, then yeah. I dont see iems beating earbuds at all. But for other genres, like trance or hip-hop its the opposite.

I would have to respectfully disagree here as well. The tech in IEMs is moving very fast also, and I have heard (and own some) that do indeed "beat" earbuds in every way except soundstage (which will never be able to be beat IMO). It is ironic that I disagree on this point being as how I think that your preferred sound signature in buds/IEMs is pretty close to mine. On the other hand, this is all a subjective debate, and more people probably would agree with you than myself, as my ears are getting old at this point.

 

[RikudouGoku]

I would have to respectfully disagree here as well. The tech in IEMs is moving very fast also, and I have heard (and own some) that do indeed "beat" earbuds in every way except soundstage (which will never be able to be beat IMO). It is ironic that I disagree on this point being as how I think that your preferred sound signature in buds/IEMs is pretty close to mine. On the other hand, this is all a subjective debate, and more people probably would agree with you than myself, as my ears are getting old at this point.

I wasnt referring to technicalities. (although iems to generally beat buds in that regard except soundstage as you said.)
But I was referring to how some genres needs that sub-bass which buds just cannot compete with iems.

 

[samandhi]

I wasnt referring to technicalities. (although iems to generally beat buds in that regard except soundstage as you said.)
But I was referring to how some genres needs that sub-bass which buds just cannot compete with iems.

Then, I totally agree, and you are 100% right! Though, I have to say that the Maria II do come pretty darned close in that area (being a dual DD driver unit), if they would have tuned them with a bit more quantity. If you EQ that region up a bit, they CAN and ARE able to handle the bass. These can ALMOST become bass cannons (truly). But I think those are a one-off either way. And they aren't as practical in every day use than most others (because of the size of the back end, and how far they stick out, making them top heavy).

 

[samandhi]

Those original Apple earbuds made me swear off earbuds (“forever“ as I thought then).

Funny thing is, that is what sealed my endeavor into earbuds as of late. Once I saw that they might be worth looking into, I pulled out my second gen Apple Earbuds, and though they DID sound fairly bad, the soundstage was so danged wide, I couldn't help but finding something to order that very night... LOL I suppose I should be greatful to Apple then in a way?!

Edit: OH, and I think I even tried to convince myself that they didn't sound that badly either. I think I might have even written that on the DX300 thread... ROFL

 

[Braekfast]

I will say that the M0 with the 40 Ohm drivers are slightly bright of neutral even without using any tuning nets (which makes them as warm as they go). I use both thicker foams (HeiGi) and a tube amp to bring them to my personal preference. I like them out of the box and they are definitely a detailed bud (not just elevated treble/false detail), but I wouldn’t describe them as warm or mellow.

Thanks for that. Might have to reconsider these then. Detailed sounds nice, but I am looking for something a bit mellow. A shame, because I love what Smabat seems to be doing with their interchangeable parts.

-snip-

Thanks for that. I played around with that tone generator a bit and blindly sliding it up I get peaks of discomfort at around 3k and 6k, with 3k being the most pronounced.

140 euro for the RW2000 is maybe a little steep for my use. Which is, like, 90% using them in bed when I'm reading a book or listening to music before going to sleep. I don't really use my earbuds during the day much, since I spend most of my time at my desk anyway and I'm wearing my full sized headphones then. But sleeping with the HD555/K701 just isn't very practical

You mention running the 150ohm drivers straight from your phone, would my odyssey dongle dac also be able to run things like that? I don't tend to go crazy loud, just loud enough that everything comes through clear.
I guess I'm still a bit confused about the impedance of headphones in general. Like, the HD555 is 50ohm, the KPH30i is 60 ohm, and the k701 is 63ohm. I would have guessed that the difference wasn't too big between the three, but the HD555 and KPH30i run fine at around 60-70%, whereas I really need to crank the K701 pretty much to the max my phone will allow to get it to a reasonable loudness. Which is why I haven't been looking to 150ohm drivers, because I'm assuming they just won't run at all. But maybe it's difference for earbuds because of the smaller size of the driver or something?

 

[RikudouGoku]

I guess I'm still a bit confused about the impedance of headphones in general. Like, the HD555 is 50ohm, the KPH30i is 60 ohm, and the k701 is 63ohm. I would have guessed that the difference wasn't too big between the three, but the HD555 and KPH30i run fine at around 60-70%, whereas I really need to crank the K701 pretty much to the max my phone will allow to get it to a reasonable loudness. Which is why I haven't been looking to 150ohm drivers, because I'm assuming they just won't run at all. But maybe it's difference for earbuds because of the smaller size of the driver or something?

Sensitivity is the other factor you need to consider.

HD555: 112db
K701: 105db
KPH30i: 101db

Judging by that, the KPH30i should need the most power, followed by the K701 and then the HD555.

 

[samandhi]

Thanks for that. Might have to reconsider these then. Detailed sounds nice, but I am looking for something a bit mellow. A shame, because I love what Smabat seems to be doing with their interchangeable parts.

Thanks for that. I played around with that tone generator a bit and blindly sliding it up I get peaks of discomfort at around 3k and 6k, with 3k being the most pronounced.

140 euro for the RW2000 is maybe a little steep for my use. Which is, like, 90% using them in bed when I'm reading a book or listening to music before going to sleep. I don't really use my earbuds during the day much, since I spend most of my time at my desk anyway and I'm wearing my full sized headphones then. But sleeping with the HD555/K701 just isn't very practical

You mention running the 150ohm drivers straight from your phone, would my odyssey dongle dac also be able to run things like that? I don't tend to go crazy loud, just loud enough that everything comes through clear.
I guess I'm still a bit confused about the impedance of headphones in general. Like, the HD555 is 50ohm, the KPH30i is 60 ohm, and the k701 is 63ohm. I would have guessed that the difference wasn't too big between the three, but the HD555 and KPH30i run fine at around 60-70%, whereas I really need to crank the K701 pretty much to the max my phone will allow to get it to a reasonable loudness. Which is why I haven't been looking to 150ohm drivers, because I'm assuming they just won't run at all. But maybe it's difference for earbuds because of the smaller size of the driver or something?

You are not wrong, but you are missing a variable that combines with the impedance to calculate how much power/volume you will need to have proper sound. The missing variable here is the sensitivity. So, while the ST10S Gold are a bit higher impedance, the sensitivity is really high (115dB), which makes them easier to drive than say the Senn HD700 having the same impedance. This is most likely also why you need to crank your K701. They are lower impedance @65Ohms, but are VERY inefficient at 90dB.

You can learn more about it here on HF in the sound science forums, or you can check out THIS article I found doing a search, if you like.

Edit: Looks like @RikudouGoku is right about the sensitivity. From the AKG site it says 105, but from a site I pulled up, it says 90... Interesting.

 

[RikudouGoku]

You are not wrong, but you are missing a variable that combines with the impedance to calculate how much power/volume you will need to have proper sound. The missing variable here is the sensitivity. So, while the ST10S Gold are a bit higher impedance, the sensitivity is really high (115dB), which makes them easier to drive than say the Senn HD700 having the same impedance. This is most likely also why you need to crank your K701. They are lower impedance @65Ohms, but are VERY inefficient at 90dB.

You can learn more about it here on HF in the sound science forums, or you can check out THIS article I found doing a search, if you like.

You can also check with this calculator: https://www.headphonesty.com/headphone-power-calculator/

(4x more power lol.)

 

[Braekfast]

snip

snip

Snip

I see, thank for that explanation! I was a bit suprised that the k701 should be easier to drive than the kph30i, I could have sworn it was the other way around. Just tried both of them again, and it still feels like the k701 needs more "juice" to get loud.
Maybe it's just me, something with the kph30i being closer to my ears than the k701 maybe? I'd think the 6.3mm to 3.5mm adapter maybe could play a role in this? But that might be a stretch. They are some older ones, from when they were still made in Austria. I know the current k701's are manufactured in China, but I got these for around 50 euro second hand from someone, I think they're from around 2007-2009 or so? Not sure if there's any difference, just spitballing here.

But this is great news, that calculator says the 150ohm smabat drivers for example should be totally doable. This might open up a bunch of options I hadn't considered yet.

 

[RikudouGoku]

Maybe it's just me, something with the kph30i being closer to my ears than the k701 maybe?

Could just be because of them having different tonalities, making it hard to actually volume match them.

I'd think the 6.3mm to 3.5mm adapter maybe could play a role in this?

Adapters definitely do not have an impact on the sound, they are literally in the 0.0x ohm impedance range. If they do impact it, I say its defective.

But this is great news, that calculator says the 150ohm smabat drivers for example should be totally doable. This might open up a bunch of options I hadn't considered yet.

Keep in mind that the calculator is only telling you what it will drive, in terms of volume. But not about the quality. Some harder to drive stuff sounds pretty bad on weaker amps, and its not the volume.

 

[samandhi]

140 euro for the RW2000 is maybe a little steep for my use. Which is, like, 90% using them in bed when I'm reading a book or listening to music before going to sleep. I don't really use my earbuds during the day much, since I spend most of my time at my desk anyway and I'm wearing my full sized headphones then. But sleeping with the HD555/K701 just isn't very practical

Keep in mind, that was USD I quoted you earlier... That would be 118 euro for the RW2000. And, now that you mentioned sleeping in them, I also find them (amongst my collection) to be the best to sleep in. I am neither irritated having them in, nor do they touch the pillow putting extra pressure, being so small and light (I am a side sleeper BTW). But, even should you decide a different route, it almost sounds like you will like the shell type that these, and that the Smabats are because there are no stems to put any pressure on your ear lobes while sleeping.

Also because you will be using them in bed mostly, you might consider the cable being detachable as a must, so it is replaceable in the future.... The RW2000, and all of the Smabats have this feature also. There are cheaper options with this feature also, but I just cannot speak to the sound that they reproduce.

 

[baskingshark]

You mention running the 150ohm drivers straight from your phone, would my odyssey dongle dac also be able to run things like that? I don't tend to go crazy loud, just loud enough that everything comes through clear.
I guess I'm still a bit confused about the impedance of headphones in general. Like, the HD555 is 50ohm, the KPH30i is 60 ohm, and the k701 is 63ohm. I would have guessed that the difference wasn't too big between the three, but the HD555 and KPH30i run fine at around 60-70%, whereas I really need to crank the K701 pretty much to the max my phone will allow to get it to a reasonable loudness. Which is why I haven't been looking to 150ohm drivers, because I'm assuming they just won't run at all. But maybe it's difference for earbuds because of the smaller size of the driver or something?

Keep in mind that the calculator is only telling you what it will drive, in terms of volume. But not about the quality. Some harder to drive stuff sounds pretty bad on weaker amps, and its not the volume.

Yeah, agree with boss @RikudouGoku here.

Driving something adequately (or just barely) and driving something well are two different stories. It is not just about putting a low sensitivity/high impedance transducer into a low powered non LGV smartphone and just jacking up the volume to the max. If that were so, we can drive planar cans from a humble smartphone at max volume.

It is more that one loses microdynamics, soundstage, bass tightness and dynamics when something that requires power is barely powered well. Some power hungry earbuds/IEMs also get a skewed FR when they are fed inadequate power, you might get a bloated or missing bass, you might get harsh upper mids etc with inappropriate source matching.

 

[RikudouGoku]

If that were so, we can drive planar cans from a humble smartphone at max volume.

Lol, if its only about volume, you could also just turn up the preamp with PEQ.
(sadly it doesnt work that way.)

 

[chinmie]

You cant really compare the seal aspect like that, they are entirely different in that regard.

then again, we have guys like Crin who says earbuds inferior way of listening and are not worth mentioning ever, partly because of that seal aspect.

i do personally would not recommend earbuds to friends and families who listens to music with disregard of their surrounding noise. earbuds, because i know they would pump the volume too high..
by design (just like/even more so than openback headphone) would need quiet environment if we want to listen to it's technical potential at a safe level.
any noise present, even as little as quiet AC running would diminish the "technical" aspect of earbuds.
enjoyment level however? that depends, and might not be affected at all. i wear earbuds when noisy for that "ambient music" mode

so, if i want to compare earbuds to IEMs in a more even playing field, i usually stick them under a closed headphone

Here in the US doing a search for earbuds is all but impossible, since it mostly brings up IEMs and TWS nowadays...

also not helping that most other people would say earbuds to describe IEMs