Earbuds Round-Up
Jul 27, 2022 at 11:46 PM Post #62,161 of 75,768
I am pleasantly surprised at Chaconne and want to compare them to the earbuds I've got in Sweden. Liebesleid was not my ideal sound signature but I want to give them a new chance.
I brought Simphonio Dragon 2+ and DQSM Turandot with me to Japan. Would like to bring a pair of Cypherus earbuds but I'm becoming more and more careful with earbuds that are rare and only use them at home. About 10 years ago when I was more active on Head fi, I used to collect vintage Sony and Aiwa earbuds. One day when I was out with a pair of E484, one driver just suddenly died and could not be fixed. That experience made me very careful (and I later sold all vintage earbuds).
That is one reason I am most careful with the Chaconne. Having a fixed cable, and being built like a tank would make it very hard to work on. I am already having imbalance issues with mine (probably due to cable judging from (mis)coloration). I still find them a fantastic listen with the right music.

I have not ever heard the Liebesleid (before my time back with buds). I wonder how similar to the Chaconne they are?!
 
Jul 28, 2022 at 12:57 AM Post #62,162 of 75,768
thanks, thats interesting, I will try that!

also (and i doubt it) if anyone really wants that eq I can do this to convert to a PEQ
I'd be interested to see the PEQ if it's not too much trouble!

(Although actually, when I copy your settings into Peace, as you suggest, I just get a very low volume sound that, when turned up, is very buzzy. I'm probably doing something wrong...)
 
Jul 28, 2022 at 1:31 AM Post #62,163 of 75,768
I'd be interested to see the PEQ if it's not too much trouble!

(Although actually, when I copy your settings into Peace, as you suggest, I just get a very low volume sound that, when turned up, is very buzzy. I'm probably doing something wrong...)
Sounds like one of the numbers is too high and it is clipping/distorting.
 
Jul 28, 2022 at 3:21 AM Post #62,164 of 75,768
I'd be interested to see the PEQ if it's not too much trouble!

(Although actually, when I copy your settings into Peace, as you suggest, I just get a very low volume sound that, when turned up, is very buzzy. I'm probably doing something wrong...)

If you have Peace then the GEQ is better, more powerful than the PEQ. I think you did it right but just check the screenshots below.
Screenshot 2022-07-28 165130.png

Screenshot 2022-07-28 165205.png

I should mention I set a default -0.2dB preamp to avoid clipping Windows Climiter (some recommend deeper to avoid intersample peaks in DAC but with this EQ profile thats not going to happen as music has barely any energy at 20hz).

If buzzing, maybe your amp distorts audibly. In that case try this which will give you 11dB. Any better?
Code:
GraphicEQ: 30 0; 35 -4; 40 -6; 50 -7; 60 -9.5; 70 -9.5; 100 -14; 200 -13; 300 -12; 700 -11; 1000 -14.5; 1500 -15.5; 2000 -22.5; 2700 -22; 3000 -21; 3500 -20; 4000 -20.5; 5500 -20.5; 6000 -18; 6500 -17.5; 7000 -16; 7500 -15; 8000 -12; 8500 -8; 9000 -7; 9500 -1.5; 9750 0; 10000 -4; 12000 -13; 13000 -12.5; 13600 -12; 14000 -12; 15000 -11; 16000 -7;
 
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Jul 28, 2022 at 6:06 AM Post #62,165 of 75,768
Fantastic! I experienced the same thing with my Nutube amp card in my DX300 (400 mW max), and while it DID have plenty of volume, it sounded flat compared to the Amp12 card (2W). Now, if I had not heard the higher powered amp card, I would probably have been happy with the lower powered one, but wow @WoodyLuvr was correct, these NEED power to sound their best, and DO scale VERY well.

Do let us know your thoughts on them when you get some more time with them?! Also (I am curious), did you get the really nice box, or the raw wood box with no labeling (other than a sticker). And did you get a (puck style) carry case with them?

To answer your question, i had the raw box with the little carry case in it. Not a fantastic packaging but i've seen worse (i'm looking at you, Shozy!)

I've run some tests with my desktop rig (Topping E50 as dac, and RSA HR2 OR Garage 1217 Sunrise hybrid AMP) and...whaaao, it rocks....
Works very well with the HR2 (an old but trusty solid state AMP by Ray Samuels with plenty of power), and i think it is even better with the hybrid amp.

I dont want to write a hasty review, i need some time to listen to them in détails but i'll very impressed by the bass, and the timbres.
I listen to a lot of metal, quite complex sometimes, and the level of détails is amont the best i've heard on buds. And they are not agressive at all.
They are on my top 2 (with the Newbsound 32 Pro), above the Shozy BK and Dqsm Turandot, all of them being TOTL buds that i like a lot.
 
Jul 28, 2022 at 12:31 PM Post #62,166 of 75,768
Jul 28, 2022 at 2:07 PM Post #62,167 of 75,768
If you have Peace then the GEQ is better, more powerful than the PEQ. I think you did it right but just check the screenshots below.
Screenshot 2022-07-28 165130.png
Screenshot 2022-07-28 165205.png

I should mention I set a default -0.2dB preamp to avoid clipping Windows Climiter (some recommend deeper to avoid intersample peaks in DAC but with this EQ profile thats not going to happen as music has barely any energy at 20hz).

If buzzing, maybe your amp distorts audibly. In that case try this which will give you 11dB. Any better?
Code:
GraphicEQ: 30 0; 35 -4; 40 -6; 50 -7; 60 -9.5; 70 -9.5; 100 -14; 200 -13; 300 -12; 700 -11; 1000 -14.5; 1500 -15.5; 2000 -22.5; 2700 -22; 3000 -21; 3500 -20; 4000 -20.5; 5500 -20.5; 6000 -18; 6500 -17.5; 7000 -16; 7500 -15; 8000 -12; 8500 -8; 9000 -7; 9500 -1.5; 9750 0; 10000 -4; 12000 -13; 13000 -12.5; 13600 -12; 14000 -12; 15000 -11; 16000 -7;

Thank you for following up on this! You've already gone above and beyond, and really I was just curious about how this would sound on the LBBS, which was my gateway drug into earbuds. I still listen to them mostly at night as my indestructible sleep/comfort set. Your visual does confirm that I'm using Peace in the right way, but even your second set of values cuts the volume down significantly. I have to then crank the volume back up (and I mean crank), and that's where I get the buzz on the BTR5. Interestingly, I don't get the buzz on the Dragonfly Red, and double-interestingly, the cranked up result actually sounds pretty good!

So still a puzzle but it's all good. As I said, most of my daytime listening is on other sets, currently the @RikudouGoku Grand Archer 1 (better than anything I've ever had in or around my ears for string music), and I will soon be a @tgx78 customer, too. I've written about my unexpected detour into buds for Classical music over on the hifi forums, but as long as I'm here, I'll say that I've gone back and read this entire thread from the beginning and I really appreciate everyone here!
 
Jul 28, 2022 at 2:45 PM Post #62,168 of 75,768
In software, anything is possible... :)

Keep in mind that this IS all in software DSP, and as long as it is PCM, then any/all sort(s) of processing can be done to a file before it hits the DAC (making it still in the digital realm). In Neutron's case, for instance, PCM files can be set up to be useable as 32bit or 64bit files before being sent out (for DSP processing purposes). Heck, you can even convert to DSD on the fly before ever reaching the DAC (which most all contemporary DACs convert to DSD anyhow, unless it is a R2R DAC). Also keep in mind that EQ/PEQ is using pre-gain (which is the dB level input BEFORE the amp section). So it really is more up to the player's and software's capabilities rather than the file being used in that case. It is not, after all, writing this value to the file, or changing the actual binary file itself, only the processing being done to the chain (replay gain is another story).

Seriously though, I am not aware of how this algorithm is being accomplished, I only know that I have done it by accident. I was trying to boost the sub-bass a little one time by +2dB, but accidentally hit the two three times: thus +222dB. Well, it is a good thing that AGP (auto gain protection) kicked in or it would have probably been fairly bad for my ears. It basically set the AGP so low that I could barely hear the (distorted) sound until I reset.

That being said, with my Yincrow RW3000, I have an EQ profile for it that adds a +14dB low shelf to 32K, and it works a treat (it really needs that much to become audible because it REALLY is rolled off that much down that low). There is no clipping, and I am able to add some much needed sub bass to complete the sound that otherwise is fantastic... :)
This makes sense. The secret here being upsampling, the DAC's high-res capacity and the software's ability to take advantage of the DAC's capabilities. Infinity's still's a stretch, but 15db sound realistic.

my Zishan sounded clipped and distorted when I tried to add a few (more) dbs to the sub-bass, so probably there's something missing software-side. Oh well....
 
Jul 28, 2022 at 2:46 PM Post #62,169 of 75,768
Anyone has experience with the Bell-Ti Plus Limited Edition? It's worth the asking price?
 
Jul 28, 2022 at 3:48 PM Post #62,170 of 75,768
This makes sense. The secret here being upsampling, the DAC's high-res capacity and the software's ability to take advantage of the DAC's capabilities. Infinity's still's a stretch, but 15db sound realistic.

my Zishan sounded clipped and distorted when I tried to add a few (more) dbs to the sub-bass, so probably there's something missing software-side. Oh well....
Well, certainly when thinking of infinity and audible sounds, that isn't possible because of the limits of our ears and (hardware) equipment, but as to the digital realm it might as well be; though you are probably right, it won't actually be infinity (it probably IS finite, just well above useable parameters), but well beyond what is audible (I could still hear it at +222dB though couldn't discern any semblance of music at that point).

Anyhow, my point was that if you need to do some complex EQ'ing and don't have a PC to hand, Neutron has some of the most advanced DSP on the market. :)

BTW, this will work just as well on any (android) phone as it will on a flagship DAP.
 
Jul 28, 2022 at 4:23 PM Post #62,171 of 75,768
Any earbud graph that measures like that is measured under conditions that do not make sense for measuring earbuds unfortunately. All it tells me Is that they either don’t know what they are doing or they are trying to fool potential customers. Hard to say if they are charlatans or idiots, but either way I have no interest in their products. Sometimes no information is better. With that said, you can see where the problem areas are in this bud using those type of graph. No bud will have flat bass to 20Hz in your ear however. if a bud was measured correctly and the graph looked like that, it would be a total disaster. This is why FiiO has regained my respect but posting graphs that will translate well into what you hear. They had lost my respect after discontinuing the e12 and then A5 (I’m absolutely kidding about losing respect for FiiO ever. I know they have a business to run.). I believe Moondrop was posting appropriately done measurements of their better buds for a while. Not sure if they still do. If I didn’t learn my job, how could I expect to be paid to do it? Don’t give these people money. It only encourages them to remain uneducated and employed in an industry they have no “business“ participating in. This is my hobby and I have a whole library on transducer design and psychoacoustics written by PhDs. Anyone making money in this industry should at least know the basics. Either these guys don’t, or they think that horrible looking graph will get you to give them money.
I think you're just being a tiny bit too harsh. That graph is taken from the product's page. It's marketing. Plain and simple.
Same as the ubiquitous 20Hz...20Khz, which can be considered a half-truth at most. Especially for buds.

Nobody trusts marketing any longer. This is one of the major reasons why we're here. If producers would be 100% honest with their products, we'd have almost nothing to talk about. It's also the power of this forum: we have each other to shield ourselves from lies. This is our defense. I know I'd be lost otherwise.
And for headphones, it's pretty straightforward. We've been lied to for so long that we've built natural defenses and just ignore the lies.

But we're not always fortunate enough to detect the marketing.
I was eating a pizza with a beef topping, a few years back. And, while happily chewing, I realized that the tiny "beef" cubes were
actually made of soy. I looked at the menu. The menu boldly stated "beef topping" (priced accordingly).
Looked again at the topping... soy taste and texture. I got caught off guard because I didn't expect such blatant lie.
And it happened from a large pizza chain, not the pizzeria at the corner of the street.

Be aware of marketing you don't expect. That's the most dangerous.
I've read something that still gives me the chills. Please look over the CT section of this article :
It seems that companies producing CT machines keep their radiation dose low by the power of .... marketing.
There are a lot of pamphlets about how safe x-ray and CT machines are. That's just marketing.
Saddest thing is that nobody questions those measurements. Radiation is painless. Nobody even thinks those CT machines could be dangerous for your health and you can go back from a full body CT scan with brand-new cancer cells.

I guide myself by the following rule: If there's a product spec that can't be (easily) measured, then it's probably fake.

On the other hand, some producers can't afford to be honest while all the other ones are lying. Not all the buyers are knowledgeable like the users on this forum. and for them specs matter.
Just look at the contrast ratios for normal TVs. Any real figure would be so low in comparison, normal buyers won't even consider such a TV.
Just like the TV wall at brick and mortar stores. Any TV that doesn't look their brightest on the wall will not be a success no matter how good it is otherwise.
Even if the universe around us is not as bright as a supernovae(ok, ok, some exceptions are true: actual supernovae).
Think of it the other way: You're fortunate enough to afford the luxury of being honest. That's an amazing feat.

But I do see your point. Marketing is bothering me too... Quite a lot. I've developed a sensitivity to screens(computer and otherwise)
due to probably just sitting for too long in front of them.
I'd love for screen producers to just show accurate(ish) measurements of how much eye-strain their products create. But that's probably never going to happen.
They're not even giving us any kind of information of the brand/type of the ever-brighter white LEDs they use.

Bottom line: Our existing process is amazing: Somebody sees a new pair of headphones that looks interesting to the eye. Someone else orders them. Then posts a couple of impressions, determining others to try them. This is how we discovered great pairs of buds. This is how we poured our money into deserving headphones. Any pair that was overpriced and/or subpar was quickly dismissed.
 
Jul 28, 2022 at 4:37 PM Post #62,172 of 75,768
This makes sense. The secret here being upsampling, the DAC's high-res capacity and the software's ability to take advantage of the DAC's capabilities. Infinity's still's a stretch, but 15db sound realistic.

my Zishan sounded clipped and distorted when I tried to add a few (more) dbs to the sub-bass, so probably there's something missing software-side. Oh well....
You know? I got to thinking about your original statement, and in some ways you are correct. What I mean is that "system wide" EQ or any EQ that uses android libraries, are REALLY limited. Where I was coming into this was that this doesn't hold true for some apps that have built-in EQ (Neutron, Hiby, UAPP, Mango, FiiO, etc...). The rules aren't totally the same for some of those apps as they have their own driver (to bypass android libraries and limitations), and algorithms, etc...

Sorry for :deadhorse:to death.... :)
 
Jul 28, 2022 at 6:24 PM Post #62,173 of 75,768
Thank you for following up on this! You've already gone above and beyond, and really I was just curious about how this would sound on the LBBS, which was my gateway drug into earbuds. I still listen to them mostly at night as my indestructible sleep/comfort set. Your visual does confirm that I'm using Peace in the right way, but even your second set of values cuts the volume down significantly. I have to then crank the volume back up (and I mean crank), and that's where I get the buzz on the BTR5. Interestingly, I don't get the buzz on the Dragonfly Red, and double-interestingly, the cranked up result actually sounds pretty good!
Glad to hear it. Unfortunate about the volume but it does take a hit when you boost freqs (you can as @Ronion suggested not boost 9.5khz, and also reduce subbass).
I will soon be a @tgx78 customer, too. I've written about my unexpected detour into buds for Classical music over on the hifi forums, but as long as I'm here, I'll say that I've gone back and read this entire thread from the beginning and I really appreciate everyone here!
Ive read and enjoyed your post haha, I think on Rikus thread. Also did you say youve read the entire this thread!
 

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