[Nool]

agreed, the bk2 is a resistant bud! That treble roll-off is there for a bunch of reasons, among there are:
1. the pinna notch interactions i just wrote about in the post above.
2. the amount of volume at post 10k required to actually make a really noticeable difference would be so high that all the other parts of the graph would suffer tremendously.

Well, I lack understanding of the context there, but I do feel treble rolloff from 8k-20khz has some real negative effects. The way I understand it is that the notes we hear aren't just one frequency but a range that peaks at said frequency. For example, based on this chart hitting the highest E on a piano would resonate around 10khz, so cutting off everything after 10-11khz would make it sound much more flat and lifeless.

That's just an assumption on my part though. But I definitely notice a difference nuking 12.5-20khz by 15db, for example on Creedence's "Up Around the Bend", the pickup on the guitar strums get a lot more clicky, and the vocals come in more flat, generally just less body to higher pitched notes.

 

[baskingshark]

The prefered ones are the Fiio FH7 and the BGVP DH3, both neutral iems, but I also like Fiio FD1 (v-shaped), Tin T2 (neutral ?), Tin T2 Plus (warm neutral), and Tri I3 (lack treble however they are so smoootthhhhh).

Yeah. Thanks to @wskl who told us about some remaining units.

I am treble sensitive and I do find the TRI I3 lacking in treble sparkle and extension. But perhaps u can try using wider bore tips eg Tenmark Whirlwinds, they tend to boost treble for me. Or if u believe in cables, u can try a silver cable with it.

Ok, I mentioned in my previous post how the BK2 graph highlights some things about earbuds that seem really confusing to understand in relation to IEMs and headphones.

Context here

On Pinna Gain and Earbuds...

In case new users are not familiar with what "pinna gain" is, here's my explanation. The short description is along the lines of, "there should be a gain centered around 3khz because of how our ear hears sound." Without this gain, earphones will sound lifeless and flat. For the purposes of our earbuds discussion, it's worth digging a bit deeper into this pinna gain. Similar to pinna gain, is a concept of head gain where sound emanating from headphones pass through the ear even differently from IEMs and require a gain as well (different from IEMs, typically a bit higher in frequency). The differences between pinna and head gain are well understood and pretty obvious if you think about it -- iems, with their insertion into the ear canal, actually bypass the pinna which affects how we hear differently from headphones.

All this to say, this is why IEM curves are different from Headphone curves. But we already knew this.

One more thing to highlight with earbuds and target curves. There is also a pinna notch, typically around 10k but can occur anywhere between 6k to 15k. This notch is due to a combination of phase cancellation affects that occur as sound enters our ear. The impact of this phenomenon can result in some users having treble sensitivity -- these users' pinna notch may be much higher in the spectrum or less impactful to where they actually hear more treble because of less pinna cancellation. So when these users hear an IEM producing upper frequencies that are near a notch region (for other users) of the graph, it can be overwhelming and fatiguing. This can also explain why various dips and notches in measurements do not affect some users at all, while negatively affecting other users.

Back to Earbuds...

I'm left with these questions to explore.
- Should an earbud target mimic head gain over pinna gain?
- The BK2 has virtually no pinna gain, yet it sounds great in the upper mids. How?
- It there such a thing of an earbuds version of pinna gain, maybe we should coin the term, earbud gain?
- Since the bud rests outside of our ear canal how do earbud graphs interact with our pinna notch?
- Should there even be a pinna notch with earbuds?
- What about the Fletcher Munson contour? Does that even affect earbud users?

so many questions....

This pinna gain thing is quite interesting (for IEMs), thanks for the explanation. I guess everyone has different ear anatomies, and that may explain why some are more sensitive to the upper mids 3 kHz area than others (eg Moondrop SSR).

I think the Fletcher Munson curve does apply to earbuds. I find the sound on earbuds is perceived as V shaped at higher volumes, compared to U shaped at softer volumes.

 

[mochill]

https://www.head-fi.org/members/mochill.290781/#showcase-reviews

 

[Sam L]

Well, I lack understanding of the context there, but I do feel treble rolloff from 8k-20khz has some real negative effects. The way I understand it is that the notes we hear aren't just one frequency but a range that peaks at said frequency.

Partially correct. The notes we hear rarely peaks at the named frequency. Instead, there is a fundamental which is mostly defined by the onset of the note, followed by harmonic material that follows. Depending on the instrument, the harmonic interactions that follow can be very complicated and is further nuanced by the instrument emitting the sound. For example on a violin when a note is played, the fundamental resides at the actual pitch that is played and is followed by harmonic resonances that can originate from the rest of the string, as well as the cavity of the instrument. In addition to this, there are circumstances where harmonic overtones can extend above and below the fundamental note. (ie. two notes played together in perfect intonation will activate harmonic over and under tones of the G string.)

I agree that sonic information in the 8k range can be critical. Harman Target rolls off signifcantly from 10khz on due to the inability to accurately measure frequencies in from 10k to 20k. This is one reason for the treble roll off.

For example, based on this chart hitting the highest E on a piano would resonate around 10khz, so cutting off everything after 10-11khz would make it sound much more flat and lifeless.

Agreed.

That's just an assumption on my part though. But I definitely notice a difference nuking 12.5-20khz by 15db, for example on Creedence's "Up Around the Bend", the pickup on the guitar strums get a lot more clicky, and the vocals come in more flat, generally just less body to higher pitched notes.

One thing to note, with earbuds there's coupler resonance at 13k (on my measuring rig.) Iems will often have this resonant point at a lower frequency. Crinacle's resonant point is just past 8k. Mine is just under 9k. It's different with different measuring setups but the important thing is that it should be consistent. I'm not certain if it is widely known how the earbud coupler resonance point differs from iec in detail. It's just my observation recent as I have been spending a good deal of time trying to arrive at an earbud target curve.

So, that roll off you see with the bk2 is associated with these factors (in part):
- compensating for 13k resonance point
- normalizing to y-axis adjusted harman target
- ?? (I had a third point, forgot...)

I'll make sure the treble doesn't roll off as much in my v1.4 target.

 

[Sam L]

v1.4 target is up.

Info and Monk lite 120 files are here.

@waynes world , @onedvt

 

[Sam L]

The BK2 is wonky with eq. [edit] Actually not wonky with eq, but responds to eq weirdly. It actually sounds great with (and without) compensation. That sub-bass dip is less of a problem than it looks on the graph. The interesting thing is the 1k rise is basically non-existent. (well, technically +1dB to 3k). I'm going to write in a separate post why this is really confusing.

I think it's the 13k spike that messes with the headroom and the autoeq algorithm. Later tonight, I'll make a correction file that terminates at 10khz. I'm still going to attach some files, as imperfect as they are since I spent time on it.

**edit: re-read my post and it makes no sense. lol. That 13k spike doesn't stretch the dynamic range and isn't an issue for the autoeq algorithm. I'm going to tentatively conclude that the BK2 driver doesn't compensate very well. That said, the default tuning is quite good.

Here's v1.4 for the bk2. Less treble roll off. Lot more detail retrieval now. I'm still listening and evaluating.

Let me know what you think @Nool

 

[axhng]

Yincrow x6 is finally here. bass is indeed one of the punchiest I've heard from the handful of earbuds that I have tried. but well, not really my cup of tea ultimately. haha. not sure if colour matters just like for vidos, but for this unit at least, I feel like the upper mids and highs are a little duller. Like in this track I feel like the double bass sounds a bit too prominent and the violin sounds a little dull for my taste.


the short version, I definitely still prefer the ME80 over these.

side note. Tried to get my faulty jietu EMX500 MMCX replaced with the seller, but it just ended up being a massive pain. Seller agreed to replace it after providing evidence, but i have to place an order on a listing for "replacement service", and had to pay like 2 SGD for it including shipping. No biggie. Decided to add in a cheap TRN MMCX cable that I would just leave connected to the EMX500 since I'm paying for shipping anyway.

The package arrived a day or 2 ago but the DIY EMX500 MMCX were nowhere to be found. Instead I was sent another pair of KBEAR Stellar. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ gave up and just requested for refund. Seller tried to refuse the claim saying they replace my faulty Stellar. lol. Shopee stepped in, and I provided them all the evidence of me making it crystal clear to the seller (screenshots of the chats, my comment on the order, etc.) that it was the EMX500 and it was the seller's fault. Got the refund for the 2nd order only since the EMX500 were considered "settled". So in the end I still ended up paying for a cable that I have no use for, and another pair of KBEAR Stellar that I have no intentions of using.

 

[rprodrigues]

@axhng

It is very nice to know your prefer the ME80 over the X6. I was between the two, but I finished ordering the ME80 since I prefer a more neutral signature.

What a bad experience you had on Shopee! I'm sorry for that.
I've been ordering some things from Shopee lately. I will thus avoid ordering from Jietu's store.

 

[axhng]

@axhng

It is very nice to know your prefer the ME80 over the X6. I was between the two, but I finished ordering the ME80 since I prefer a more neutral signature.

What a bad experience you had on Shopee! I'm sorry for that.
I've been ordering some things from Shopee lately. I will thus avoid ordering from Jietu's store.

well, i wouldn't specifically avoid jietu's store still. I've bought from them a number of times already and most of the time there are no issues at all. If they sent the right item for replacement, there would have been no issues this time round too. It's just unfortunate that they sent the wrong item but didn't want to own up to their mistake. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[povidlo]

Any suggestions for good tips for ST-10s Gold?

They're most comfy naked, but seal is poor.

I prefer full fuzzies out of stock tips in the box, but they give a bit of an ear ache after a while.

 

[jogawag]

Any suggestions for good tips for ST-10s Gold?

They're most comfy naked, but seal is poor.

I prefer full fuzzies out of stock tips in the box, but they give a bit of an ear ache after a while.

You can use double donut foams for soft fit.

 

[povidlo]

You can use double donut foams for soft fit.

Didn't like the donuts on their own. Sorry, are you saying to put the donuts on top of full ones?

 

[jogawag]

Didn't like the donuts on their own. Sorry, are you saying to put the donuts on top of full ones?

If you put the donuts on top of full ones, bass of ST-10S may sound too much.

 

[povidlo]

If you put the donuts on top of full ones, bass of ST-10S may sound too much.

What are double donut foams then?

Pardon the earbud newbie.

 

[jogawag]

What are double donut foams then?

Pardon the earbud newbie.

I'm sorry I didn't explain it well enough.
Double donut foams mean setting donut foam over donut foam on one earbud.
If you prefer more bass, you can set the donut foam over full foam.