The discovery thread!
Jul 13, 2021 at 10:33 PM Post #57,826 of 101,477
in speaker world, big speaker sound big and small speaker sound small...
it's not just about the depth of the bass but the grandness of the overall sound, physics still play role...

small woofer try to get volume displacement by throw longer/further the diaphragm excursion, more difficult motor design to stay linear..
big woofer could get the same volume displacement with much lesser excursion, simpler motor would do..

... is the smaller DD driver such in earphone follow the same treat? I don't know... maybe?
The demands placed on the driver are quite different, due to extra isolation granted by IEMs, a small enclosure encompassing the IEM housing and the listener's ear canals which increases bass pressure and extension, as well as the significantly shorter distance to the eardrums, which does not require as high SPL levels to be perceived as appropriate listening levels at the listener's position due to energy lost
 
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Jul 13, 2021 at 10:43 PM Post #57,827 of 101,477
Also, in comparison to headphones there is relatively less need for oversized drivers/diaphragms as the sound is not captured by the outer ear (incoming reflections being captured at different angles etc). Different driver/diaphragm designs experience break up at different levels of torture too. However, I believe there is still a general minimal requirement about its size due to the constraints of physics; unsure of where it lies though (unlike in microphones where it has been explained and agreed upon)
 
Jul 13, 2021 at 10:44 PM Post #57,828 of 101,477
Hey guys sorry not to tell you earlier here, along with my post elsewhere in the Legacy Series thread. I got the Legacy 2 just this afternoon! At $100, it was a must try for the interested reviewers have been having, like BGGAR.

In short, the Legacy is really enjoyable for me at first listen!

If you want to hear my thoughts, see the Legacy Series thread.
 
Jul 14, 2021 at 12:01 AM Post #57,829 of 101,477
Also, in comparison to headphones there is relatively less need for oversized drivers/diaphragms as the sound is not captured by the outer ear (incoming reflections being captured at different angles etc). Different driver/diaphragm designs experience break up at different levels of torture too. However, I believe there is still a general minimal requirement about its size due to the constraints of physics; unsure of where it lies though (unlike in microphones where it has been explained and agreed upon)
I don't think it was necessarily due to the physical requirements of the driver diaphragm size, but it does seem that the accepted driver size is 10mm or larger for sub-bass to mids performance in a hybrid configuration and 8mm or smaller for mids to treble performance in a multi-DD configuration. High excursion drivers are challenging to maintain any significant agility in, as it can be difficult to design a magnet structure and voice coil in such a small package that can generate a strong enough flux to net you that excursion when you're using a driver with significant mechanical spring force, so you'd be looking to use a driver with a more flexible surround with less mechanical spring force and rely primarily on electrical spring force to pull the driver back to its nominal state. You tend to lose agility and "texture" when you go this route, but it can result in incredibly deep bass with a very "warm", "smooth", "honeyed" quality to it. When you opt for a driver with comparatively low mechanical spring force, then the role that the enclosure design plays is more pronounced, but still not as noticeable as in actual loudspeaker designs, since a lot of the theories and calculations don't scale accurately down to that form factor.

Basically, if you want to use an incredibly stiff driver to give you strong bass performance, you want it to be as large as you can fit in the shell. It gets more complicated, of course, since the larger driver can typically produce higher volume output in the higher frequency range than you ideally want, so you've got to tune it well or cross it over with other complementary drivers.
 
Jul 14, 2021 at 12:05 AM Post #57,830 of 101,477
For myself I think 12mm isn't necessary for tight extended bass. I've heard smaller drivers/diaphragms capable of producing that
have you by chance heard the Dunu Titan 6? I think it's got a 14mm beryllium coated dynamic, but I don't think I've seen any reviews of it floating around.
 
Jul 14, 2021 at 12:08 AM Post #57,831 of 101,477
Jul 14, 2021 at 12:13 AM Post #57,832 of 101,477
It doesn't look like it will be a major improvement over the F5 which cost significantly less that I have. Its frequency response is a little risky, it has significant driver impulse ringing, the step response isn't as nice as the F5's and it still has terrible resonance issues which show up in the QSD/CSD of its right driver. The mismatch with its left driver (which performs better) doesn't exactly instill confidence either
 
Jul 14, 2021 at 12:15 AM Post #57,833 of 101,477
I have heard the Titan 1 and Fiio EX1, EX1 gen 2 and F5, but not the Titan 6 although I was really interested in it. Reason was the graphs from this site https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/hp/dunu-titan-6.php#gsc.tab=0 compared to other IEMs I was eyeing as well
It looks like @CK Moustache did a review of them a while back and didn't find their performance to be worthwhile, mostly because the driver wasn't ideally suited for treble performance or it just wasn't tuned properly for that application. It does look like a strong contender if the rear chamber is ported to act as a sub-bass and bass driver in a hybrid config. I think the Dunu EST112 uses a larger driver that they based off what they learned with the Titan 6. Though I have heard some complaints that the EST112 could stand to have more texture in its sub-bass and bass performance, so maybe they ended up making the driver too large or the diaphragm too heavy with the two-sided beryllium coating. I don't really know, and I can't fit them in my ears anyway, so there's no point in me considering purchasing them, even if their cable is excellent.
 
Jul 14, 2021 at 12:28 AM Post #57,834 of 101,477
It looks like @CK Moustache did a review of them a while back and didn't find their performance to be worthwhile, mostly because the driver wasn't ideally suited for treble performance or it just wasn't tuned properly for that application. It does look like a strong contender if the rear chamber is ported to act as a sub-bass and bass driver in a hybrid config. I think the Dunu EST112 uses a larger driver that they based off what they learned with the Titan 6. Though I have heard some complaints that the EST112 could stand to have more texture in its sub-bass and bass performance, so maybe they ended up making the driver too large or the diaphragm too heavy with the two-sided beryllium coating. I don't really know, and I can't fit them in my ears anyway, so there's no point in me considering purchasing them, even if their cable is excellent.
From experience, generally for IEMs there is little reason to look back unless you are after a specific, particular sound signature that you already know of and want. In the past few years they have improved so much, my IEMs which were considered good from around 2012 are mostly unlistenable now
 
Jul 14, 2021 at 1:35 AM Post #57,836 of 101,477
From experience, generally for IEMs there is little reason to look back unless you are after a specific, particular sound signature that you already know of and want. In the past few years they have improved so much, my IEMs which were considered good from around 2012 are mostly unlistenable now
That does certainly seem to be the case. The only ones that seem particularly worthwhile might be some of the Sony XBA series, but even then, the newer models are objectively superior and the old ones aren't so cheap on the resale market that it's worth choosing them instead.
 
Jul 14, 2021 at 1:45 AM Post #57,837 of 101,477
That does certainly seem to be the case. The only ones that seem particularly worthwhile might be some of the Sony XBA series, but even then, the newer models are objectively superior and the old ones aren't so cheap on the resale market that it's worth choosing them instead.
By the XBA series, do you mean the XBA-1, 2, 3 and 4? :slight_smile:
 
Jul 14, 2021 at 1:57 AM Post #57,838 of 101,477
Wait wait wait..so which is it? Are the Lofty's treble impaired or are they treble monsters. They can't be both ways. I owned the NM2+, and those were godsmacked with treble, to the point where those offended even my very treble toleration. So either the graphs are full of s--t on the Lofty's, or the reviews are full of s--t. Again, it can't go both ways, folks.
 
Jul 14, 2021 at 2:02 AM Post #57,839 of 101,477
By the XBA series, do you mean the XBA-1, 2, 3 and 4? :slight_smile:
The H2 and H3 have decent graphs, but the A2 and A3, the A3 in particular, are just better. But then there's the N3, whose graph just looks more pleasant than any of them. I wish they were more affordable, because I may have purchased them before getting my GS Audio GD7B, and I'm hard pressed to want a side-grade.
 
Jul 14, 2021 at 2:06 AM Post #57,840 of 101,477
The H2 and H3 have decent graphs, but the A2 and A3, the A3 in particular, are just better. But then there's the N3, whose graph just looks more pleasant than any of them. I wish they were more affordable, because I may have purchased them before getting my GS Audio GD7B, and I'm hard pressed to want a side-grade.
the H3 was a bass cannon. The A3 was not a bass cannon (but still had amble bass without the veil) but the detail retrieval and resolution were just average. Quite underwhelming, and coming from the H3, I was so excited to get them for my birthday. I now have the XBA300, and with balanced output, they are very good, and they are quite good through 3.5mm, BUT I warn treble sensitives to avoid, as they do possess very BA type highs in extension and timbre.
 
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