Mad Lust Envy's Headphone Gaming Guide: (8/18/2022: iFi GO Blu Review Added)
Jul 29, 2020 at 12:24 PM Post #44,881 of 48,564
Considering IEMs bypass the outer ear, spatial cues may not work properly.

That's desirable imo. The spatial cues you get from the headphone interacting with the outer ear help you locate the position of the headphone driver, not sounds in the game. I think one of the advantages of open headphones is the lack of resonances in the ear cup, which makes the sounds more of a blank canvas for hrtf to work.
 
Jul 29, 2020 at 3:09 PM Post #44,883 of 48,564
Correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't a "generic" HRTF altered audio signal (i.e. what we get with basically all these VSS products) already simulate the audio effect produced by your outer ear, thus it does not necessarily matter if you are using an IEM? I.e., the HRTF magic your brain relies on from soundwaves bouncing around your ears, body and face is already "baked in." Basically all that would matter is the IEM's accuracy, imaging and soundstage?

IEM's would matter, however, for anything relying on an an in ear mic recording of your headphone's sound signature, e.g. the Realiser, since you cannot do that with an IEM. (But, you could still just do the speaker calibration part...) So the best possible (i.e. most individually calbrated) way to do VSS would not work with an IEM, but everything else would. That's my understanding at least, someone tell me if I am wrong.
 
Jul 29, 2020 at 11:39 PM Post #44,886 of 48,564
There's two factors I wanna discuss. Some of it pertains to IEMs.

One, the soundstage has almost always been considerably smaller that full sized headphones even with VSS. This works against positional accuracy for me, when everything is packed in together around my head.

Two, closed headphones are NOT detrimental to the VSS experience. Closed headphones with small soundstage is. There is correlation, but not outright causation.


The correlation people make is that closed tends to equal bad soundstage in general, which leads to my first point, about most IEMs having a small soundstage which is not conducive to a good VSS experience.

However, if you have a headphone that is closed AND has a large soundstage (i.e
DT770s, MMX300, Ether C), VSS in these can be BETTER than on open headphones with large soundstages. As someone stated, the blank canvas a closed headphone provides can better allow for focus of positional placement of sounds).

All in all, worry less about whether a headphone is open or closed, and worry more about how well a headphone portrays their soundstage.

Off the top of my head, my highest rated headphone ever on here is the Ether C, and that thing is HELLA closed. But man does it sound open as hell. The Alpha Dog of old is also something that sounds so large and open, I couldn't believe my ears.
 
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Jul 30, 2020 at 3:43 AM Post #44,887 of 48,564
There's two factors I wanna discuss. Some of it pertains to IEMs.

One, the soundstage has almost always been considerably smaller that full sized headphones even with VSS. This works against positional accuracy for me, when everything is packed in together around my head.

Two, closed headphones are NOT detrimental to the VSS experience. Closed headphones with small soundstage is. There is correlation, but not outright causation.


The correlation people make is that closed tends to equal bad soundstage in general, which leads to my first point, about most IEMs having a small soundstage which is not conducive to a good VSS experience.

However, if you have a headphone that is closed AND has a large soundstage (i.e
DT770s, MMX300, Ether C), VSS in these can be BETTER than on open headphones with large soundstages. As someone stated, the blank canvas a closed headphone provides can better allow for focus of positional placement of sounds).

All in all, worry less about whether a headphone is open or closed, and worry more about how well a headphone portrays their soundstage.

Off the top of my head, my highest rated headphone ever on here is the Ether C, and that thing is HELLA closed. But man does it sound open as hell. The Alpha Dog of old is also something that sounds so large and open, I couldn't believe my ears.
Did you hear iem Andromeda? It’s IEMs but with very large soundstage for IEMs, so may be it’s why so much people love this IEMs. So if it’s have big soundstage does it necessary to compare with closed full size headphones?
 
Jul 30, 2020 at 5:40 AM Post #44,888 of 48,564
I don't like IEMs in general, so no.

I'm sure there are IEMs with large soundstages as well as open IEMs. I'll stick to full sized, however.
 
Jul 30, 2020 at 5:43 AM Post #44,889 of 48,564
I haven't found any IEM that draws images and objects as huge as for instance all these HEK cans or similar to the HD 800. Neither do they project such a huge and wide stage.

My favorites are the HD 800 and the HEK SE.
 
Jul 30, 2020 at 6:23 AM Post #44,890 of 48,564
Correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't a "generic" HRTF altered audio signal (i.e. what we get with basically all these VSS products) already simulate the audio effect produced by your outer ear, thus it does not necessarily matter if you are using an IEM? I.e., the HRTF magic your brain relies on from soundwaves bouncing around your ears, body and face is already "baked in." Basically all that would matter is the IEM's accuracy, imaging and soundstage?

IEM's would matter, however, for anything relying on an an in ear mic recording of your headphone's sound signature, e.g. the Realiser, since you cannot do that with an IEM. (But, you could still just do the speaker calibration part...) So the best possible (i.e. most individually calbrated) way to do VSS would not work with an IEM, but everything else would. That's my understanding at least, someone tell me if I am wrong.
Yes. Further, for the HRTF REALLY to work PROPERLY for 3D positional audio, the HRTF (or your head/torso/pinnae in real life) need to be fed multi-directional signal.

No amount of stereo only signal from fixed position stereo headphone transducers will give you ADDITIONAL positional cues.

Only if you are in real life, with free ears and listening to natural sounds coming from all directions, does your natural head/torso/pinnae masking/reflections (=your own HRTF) really give additional positional cues as to the direction from where the sounds is coming from. This and moving your head even slightly.

If you record this natural multi-stream, true-multidirectional signal with a stereo microphone, then the directional signals are GONE forever.

No amount of playing back that signal using IEMs, closed headphones, open headphones, big headpones, small headphones, will regenerate or recreate those positional signals. they are gone.

Yes, you can buy a headset with a huge reverbating close headphone cup with LOTS of phase errors and it will create a sense of "bigger soundstage" and "wider space" and "space that envelops around your head", but it won't be one bit directionally more accurate as to the original direction of the sound signals. In fact, while euphonic to some, it will be WORSE for directional accuracy.

This is basic acoustics/psychoacoustics.

The second way, which the BEST of 3D headphone virtualization algos try to recreate is:

1) you have true multi-channel discrete multi-directional signal (non-downmixed 7.1 discrete multichannel audio is an example). This can be artificially computed signal (like a gaming / VR environment) or a natural multichannel recording done from a natural soundspace (say, a recording in a concert hall).

2) Using the above (1) multichannel signal, the 3D virtualization algo uses a generic or for your head/ears tailored HRTF -function to map these 7.1 discrete audio channels into stereo headphone playback while trying to retain (mimick) as much of the original positional cues as possible. Some positional and spatial cues will be lost, but the good algos can do a fairly competent job.

However, if you already feed that HRTF algo a stereo (non-multichannel) signal, it can NOT recreate positional or spatial cues using the HRTF algos. It needs a real multichannel signal.

With this in mind, it should be obvious, that when one feeds ones ears stereo signals from any pair of stereo headphones, the difference between IEMs and full-size headphones as to accurate and natural positional & spatial cues should not be that great. Esp, if that stereo signal being listened to is already created by an artificial 3D virtualization HRTF algo.

Adding your ear/pinnae reflections to that signal doesn't recover any additional sound cues from the stereo signal.

There is a small caveat here.

If you have say headspeakers like AKG K1000 and you have a ears-wide-apart- stereo microphone (non-HRTF mixed) recorded audio signal, then that combination (very rare!) can recreate a bit of the HRTF signals using the AKG K1000 headspeakers compared to IEMs. But that is a very rare and special case.

Another caveat would be true multi-transducer headphone, where the transducers are spaced far enough apart from each other and are fed a true non-down-mixed multichannel audio signal. AFAIK, such headphones do NOT exist (in commercial production). The faux-multi-tranducer gaming headphones don't have the transducers spaced enough apart and the sound coming from separate enough directions. That last part is IMHO, haven't seen papers on it.

But many IEMs can do very nice bass.


Yes, but NONE can approximate the actual visceral physical force of a 70mm drive moving air against your drum at 2Watts of amplification.

The only thing that will happen if you try that with IEMs is earbleed and blown out eardrums, not more physical feel of the bass.

Yes, there are great IEMs, I'm not saying that. Yes IEMs have their pros, and so do full-sized headphones with large transducers.

But having better "pinnae based HRTF related positional audio" is not one of those advantages (for either headphone type).
 
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Jul 30, 2020 at 8:58 AM Post #44,891 of 48,564
I have ordered a Fii0 k5 pro and Fidelio x2hr. I was looking for a new gaming headset but realized I don’t need a mic. I think this setup would have to be better then most any big box store gaming headset i was looking at. K5 pro might not be needed but I figured it would get the most out of the headphones and if I do ever move up in headphones it would be needed. I have purchased the dobly app in the windows store and hope the Atmos for headphones plays nice with this set up. PC use only and no added sound card. A sound card maybe the next thing to add for better surround virtualization.
 
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Jul 30, 2020 at 10:34 AM Post #44,892 of 48,564
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Jul 31, 2020 at 1:07 PM Post #44,894 of 48,564
HD800 and Koss Porta Pro
 

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