[Valathyr]

Regarding your list for the BoomMic Pro compatible headphones, which do you think would be comparable to the Ultrasone 780s?

 

[Fegefeuer]

  I am about to buy the K702, It is said that it has the best detail,soundstage and imaging for under 600 bucks ... is that true ?

 
Do you know about its headband? The new china headbands are even/flat in structure, the older ones have knobs than can be painful after a few hours and leave marks for a few hours after. 
 
How about the K712 or K702 Anniversaries? There should be a few deals out there by now. I can only speak more about the latter ones, I found them to be a superb allrounder for the money. There's not much else up to 600 bucks. If you mean Euros then there is the Beyerdynamic T1 for 699 Euros which I find superior to any AKG offering except the 812. In comparison to the K7xx series you'll get to know what a real phantom center is, leading to an even and cohorent soundstage. K7xx series are weak in that regard where the phantom center is diffuse and hollow. 

 

[Sam21]

the ones with flat headband are fake ? I have heard there are fake ones out there...

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

No. The ones with the flat headband are real. They are the updated versions made in China. That's all.

 

[mmencius]

I only saw the one episode about soundcards... It was a bit like watching Bill O'Reilly, except there was nobody to provide a counterpoint (and talk over).
For consoles, the surround processors are also DACs (digital to analogue). Amps only provide the power for analogue signals. The Magni and Vali are amps... that's why they don't have digital inputs.

Soundcards are a step up in DAC quality and amping power compared to motherboards (the best motherboard integrated sound components are still noisier and less powerful than an entry-level card like an Asus Xonar DGS or Creative Soundblaster Z/Omni), and they also offer headphone surround processing. Motherboards are getting more capable and often are good enough to get by (used to be you had to add a soundcard to get audio AT ALL), and a dedicated headphone gear will still be another step up from soundcards, but soundcards still have their place and are convenient all-in-one solutions.

I think it's a bit much to compare anyone not on Fox to Bill O'Reilly... he did invite intelligent constructive criticism/comments/debate. So the moral is: motherboards<sound cards<DAC/Amp?
 

You're missing out on a MAJOR factor: surround processing. It's why we use things like the mixamp and the omni.

If you want surround from your console, get a mixanp or recon and work from there.

If you ONLY want to listen to music from your PC, get a USB DAC and an amp (or a combo) and skip the sound card.

If you game on your PC, you need a sound card for surround processing. All sound cards are amp and DAC too, you can start with that and then expand over time. Add an amp and then a DAC if you feel the need to upgrade.

 
 

 
That's what Grumpy is doing too, and I think it's your best "bang for the buck" config.  My $100 Schiit Modi DAC is nice, but it's not $100 better than my Omni. 

 
 

That's why I love the Omni so far. Digital out and no audible hiss. The Mixamp 2013's hiss is very noticeable but not bad when I'm only gaming with it. I definitely prefer the Omni for everything else though.

 
Let me get this straight in my slow mind, digesting the content of the four above quotes. So when a machine is functioning as an amp, it necessarily takes analog input via RCA cables, amplifies it, and outputs analog via 3.5mm cable that can be heard by the human ear. When a machine functions as a DAC, it necessarily takes digital input via USB or optical and outputs analog. When a machine functions as a surround sound DSP, it takes digital input and can either output analog or digital (eg DSS for analog output or omni for digital output).
 
So what Grumpy means about the Omni (has digital out) and Stillhart means about not needing a $100 DAC is that the Omni can perform several functions? That it has digital out if you want something else to do the amping/dacing (so it can just do the surround processing), but it can also do the dacing itself so no need for the extra dedicated dac? So if you use an omni with digital out, you are bypassing the amp/dac functions of the soundcard?
And this is why a Magni/Vali has only RCA inputs.
 
But let's say I don't care about surround processing since I love stereo sound and don't care about competitiveness. I'd want stuff to game on PS3/PS4 and listen to music through PC. Some questions about sound superiority (if any):
1. Will a DAC+Amp for music on PC give superior sound to an all-in-one sound card?
2. The PS3 can output audio through optical or RCA. Will optical->opti-Modi->Magni/Vali->headphones be superior to RCA->Magni->headphones?
3. The PS4 can output audio through optical, RCA or USB. Which is superior, USB or optical input?
 
EDIT removed a dumb question 4 which didn't know that stereo headphones don't benefit from actual 5.1 surround sound.
 
PS: ATHM50 are $75 refurbished on Buydig. I thought they were very beloved, why don't I hear more about them on this thread?

 

[Stillhart]

   
Let me get this straight in my slow mind, digesting the content of the four above quotes. So when a machine is functioning as an amp, it necessarily takes analog input via RCA cables, amplifies it, and outputs analog via 3.5mm cable that can be heard by the human ear. When a machine functions as a DAC, it necessarily takes digital input via USB or optical and outputs analog. When a machine functions as a surround sound DSP, it takes digital input and can either output analog or digital (eg DSS for analog output or omni for digital output).
 
So what Grumpy means about the Omni (has digital out) and Stillhart means about not needing a $100 DAC is that the Omni can perform several functions? That it has digital out if you want something else to do the amping/dacing (so it can just do the surround processing), but it can also do the dacing itself so no need for the extra dedicated dac? So if you use an omni with digital out, you are bypassing the amp/dac functions of the soundcard?
And this is why a Magni/Vali has only RCA inputs.
 
But let's say I don't care about surround processing since I love stereo sound and don't care about competitiveness. I'd want stuff to game on PS3/PS4 and listen to music through PC. Some questions about sound superiority (if any):
1. Will a DAC+Amp for music on PC give superior sound to an all-in-one sound card?
2. The PS3 can output audio through optical or RCA. Will optical->opti-Modi->Magni/Vali->headphones be superior to RCA->Magni->headphones?
3. The PS4 can output audio through optical, RCA or USB. Which is superior, USB or optical input?
 
EDIT removed a dumb question 4 which didn't know that stereo headphones don't benefit from actual 5.1 surround sound.
 
PS: ATHM50 are $75 refurbished on Buydig. I thought they were very beloved, why don't I hear more about them on this thread?

 
DSP takes a Digital Signal and Processes it into a different digital signal.  It passes the ditial signal to a DAC which Converts the Digital signal to Analog.  The analog signal gets passed to an Amp which Amplifies the signal so it can effectively drive the headphones being used.
 
A sound card in your computer does all three functions, though DSP is generally done in the software, not the hardware.  The issue is that the DAC and Amp being used in a sound card are generally not as good as dedicated DAC's or Amps.  This is because people don't tend to use the best headphones with them and can't hear the difference.
 
So to answer your direct questions:
 
1 - Absolutely.
2 - For gaming sound, I wouldn't bother with a dedicated DAC.  Run it through your AVR or, if you don't have one nearby, a dedicated amp like the Magni.  But if you're doing that, you should probably just get a Mixamp and enjoy some surround sound instead of the Magni for stereo sound.
3 - For the PS4, if you don't care about surround, just plug it into your controller and forget about it.
 
5 - This thread is about good headphones for 3D sound-whoring.  Those aren't thems.
 
EDIT - To be clear, DSP is a pretty general term that encompasses things like virtual surround processing, crossfading tracks, software EQ, etc.

 

[Evshrug]

You got the moral of the story, yes. But as you learn more about audio and this hobby, you'd realize that some of their tips are good (basic stuff like higher bitrate encoding or lossless music files), but there is a liberal amount of content to make you squirm throughout the video. I could go over it and minute-by-minute respond to what they were saying in that video where they bury a $200 soundcard in the snow, but I'd get tired and nobody has time for that. Wasn't their guest speaker a maker of competitive products, and a sponsor of the show?

1. Yes, most of the time.
2. Depends, if you use the Ps3's RCA outputs then you'd be using the PS3's DAC, and I have no idea how good or bad that DAC is.
3. PS4 only has digital outputs, unless you count the output in the controller, and NO RCA. Assuming you're using the same DAC, there shouldn't be any practical SQ difference between optical and USB.

 

[mmencius]

So my original Q4 was going to be something stupid, but I'll amend it a little: is there any way to connect console to dac/amp via HDMI? Isn't this the only way to carry lossless audio formats Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master?
Then I thought the question was stupid and removed it because a stereo headphone can't play actual surround sound (which those formats are). But then again: when my DSS is receiving a Dolby 5.1 actual surround sound signal, it does make use of that for processing Dolby Headphone, right? So why doesn't a high end dac like some of Schiit's stuff take HDMI input?
 
Quote:

DSP takes a Digital Signal and Processes it into a different digital signal.  It passes the ditial signal to a DAC which Converts the Digital signal to Analog.  The analog signal gets passed to an Amp which Amplifies the signal so it can effectively drive the headphones being used.
A sound card in your computer does all three functions, though DSP is generally done in the software, not the hardware.  The issue is that the DAC and Amp being used in a sound card are generally not as good as dedicated DAC's or Amps.  This is because people don't tend to use the best headphones with them and can't hear the difference.
 
1 - Absolutely.
2 - For gaming sound, I wouldn't bother with a dedicated DAC.  Run it through your AVR or, if you don't have one nearby, a dedicated amp like the Magni.  But if you're doing that, you should probably just get a Mixamp and enjoy some surround sound instead of the Magni for stereo sound.
3 - For the PS4, if you don't care about surround, just plug it into your controller and forget about it.
 
5 - This thread is about good headphones for 3D sound-whoring.  Those aren't thems.
 
EDIT - To be clear, DSP is a pretty general term that encompasses things like virtual surround processing, crossfading tracks, software EQ, etc.

 
The PS4 controller must have a tiny amp, right? What else could they fit in that? So how would you get decent sound out of a good musical headphone like the Q701?
I thought most of this thread was for console gaming and it has been confirmed a zillion times that everything will do better with an amp.

You got the moral of the story, yes. But as you learn more about audio and this hobby, you'd realize that some of their tips are good (basic stuff like higher bitrate encoding or lossless music files), but there is a liberal amount of content to make you squirm throughout the video. I could go over it and minute-by-minute respond to what they were saying in that video where they bury a $200 soundcard in the snow, but I'd get tired and nobody has time for that. Wasn't their guest speaker a maker of competitive products, and a sponsor of the show?

1. Yes, most of the time.
2. Depends, if you use the Ps3's RCA outputs then you'd be using the PS3's DAC, and I have no idea how good or bad that DAC is.
3. PS4 only has digital outputs, unless you count the output in the controller, and NO RCA. Assuming you're using the same DAC, there shouldn't be any practical SQ difference between optical and USB.

I see. Cheers, and no need to go through everything. So you agree that FLAC vs MP3 is largely placebo? Possibly stupid question: is this the case for lossless formats Dolby TrueHD and its DTS equivalent vs lossy formats Dolby/DTS?

 

[Stillhart]

   
The PS4 controller must have a tiny amp, right? What else could they fit in that? So how would you get decent sound out of a good musical headphone like the Q701?
I thought most of this thread was for console gaming and it has been confirmed a zillion times that everything will do better with an amp.
 
I see. Cheers, and no need to go through everything. So you agree that FLAC vs MP3 is largely placebo? Possibly stupid question: is this the case for lossless formats Dolby TrueHD and its DTS equivalent vs lossy formats Dolby/DTS?

I assumed you were using your console for gaming, not music, based on your line of questioning.  If that's the case, then you only need to worry about amping for volume levels, not for sound quality.  If the Q701 gets loud enough out of the controller, you don't need to amp it.  Of course if you get an efficient can like the X1, it's a non-issue.
 
And while everything soudns better with an amp, it's only going to sound as good as your source.  Game audio isn't going to be vastly improved from putting high quality audio gear in there.  Music (in a quality format) will.  FLAC's 100% sound better than 192k or V0 MP3's; it's definitely not placebo.  320k MP3's are much harder to distinguish.

 

[mmencius]

  I assumed you were using your console for gaming, not music, based on your line of questioning.  If that's the case, then you only need to worry about amping for volume levels, not for sound quality.  If the Q701 gets loud enough out of the controller, you don't need to amp it.  Of course if you get an efficient can like the X1, it's a non-issue.
 
And while everything soudns better with an amp, it's only going to sound as good as your source.  Game audio isn't going to be vastly improved from putting high quality audio gear in there.  Music (in a quality format) will.  FLAC's 100% sound better than 192k or V0 MP3's; it's definitely not placebo.  320k MP3's are much harder to distinguish.

I don't understand: many games' soundtracks are recorded with a live orchestra, and consoles can output lossless audio format: why is game audio of low quality? I remember when I first asked on this thread, you recommended the Q701 to me. If game audio isn't going to be improved much from audio gear, what about the choice of headphone itself? So are you saying that good headphones for gaming are mainly for the surround effect and not for the SQ of in game audio?

 

[Stillhart]

  I don't understand: many games' soundtracks are recorded with a live orchestra, and consoles can output lossless audio format: why is game audio of low quality? I remember when I first asked on this thread, you recommended the Q701 to me. If game audio isn't going to be improved much from audio gear, what about the choice of headphone itself? So are you saying that good headphones for gaming are mainly for the surround effect and not for the SQ of in game audio?

The Q701 is great for gaming because the tonality and soundstage and positional cues make it fantastic for virtual surround gaming.  It also happens to be a great headphone for music if you like the sound signature.  This thread is about virtual surround gaming and the headphone was recommended with that in mind.
 
If your needs are different, it's good for to know that so we can advise you correctly. 

 

[mmencius]

  The Q701 is great for gaming because the tonality and soundstage and positional cues make it fantastic for virtual surround gaming.  It also happens to be a great headphone for music if you like the sound signature.  This thread is about virtual surround gaming and the headphone was recommended with that in mind.
 
If your needs are different, it's good for to know that so we can advise you correctly. 

Ah I see, thank you. So for stereo gaming, just stick headphones straight into the PS4 controller? That's pretty anticlimactic . 
 
What about PS3: I'm currently not so satisfied with SQ of Superlux + DSS (whether Dolby bypass is on or not), will it improve with a Magni, or is game audio just that not great? Maybe I should take a break from gaming and visit the BSO tonight

 

[Stillhart]

  Ah I see, thank you. So for stereo gaming, just stick headphones straight into the PS4 controller? That's pretty anticlimactic .
 
What about PS3: I'm currently not so satisfied with SQ of Superlux + DSS (whether Dolby bypass is on or not), will it improve with a Magni, or is game audio just that not great? Maybe I should take a break from gaming and visit the BSO tonight

Well to be fair, sticking it straight into the controller is a fantastically easy solution that wasn't available in the past.
 
I don't have any experience with the PS3 or the DSS so I'll let more experienced minds answer that one.

 

[jeeezy]

Hm, is it worth upgrading from the X1 Fildelio to the AKG K712 or are they too similar?
I am not 100% happy with my X1 atm.
What i want:
- less Bass
- more Detail
- bigger Soundstage
- and better Comfort for my big head lol xD
 
Would be nice if some of you heard both of them.
Tanks guys! <3

 

[Stillhart]

  Hm, is it worth upgrading from the X1 Fildelio to the AKG K712 or are they too similar?
I am not 100% happy with my X1 atm.
What i want:
- less Bass
- more Detail
- bigger Soundstage
- and better Comfort for my big head lol xD
 
Would be nice if some of you heard both of them.
Tanks guys! <3

Out of curiosity, are you amping your X1?  I found that amping helped cure the first two points.  Well, the bass was a lot more controlled, less boomy, so it felt like "less" without actually being less.  And of course cleaning up the bass helped the detail.
 
But yeah, the AKG is going to have less bass, more detail and a bigger soundstage.  Can't speak to comfort, but MLE has a big head so maybe read what he says about comfort in his reviews on the first page.  You could probably save some money and get a Q701 too.