[courierdriver]

Thats why it tastes more like ham.

Yup, it does...cause it's closer to the ham part of the pig. More dense, more meat; with less fat. It is differentiated from regular "strip" bacon...which is what most people associate with 'bacon' .

 

[Owludio]

I once looked at a DIY EST headphone guide and looks like the driver is an ultra thin BoPET layer sandwiched between 2 charged steel grilles that function as stators. What's so different here out of genuine curiosity?

Electret is material that can hold permanent electrical charge. Voltage equivalent can be up to several thousands volt but typically - couple of hundred. In this simplified scheme, all Electret is doing - is replacing Bias Voltage Supply.
I don't see advantage of using Electret over connected metal plated conductive membrane, unless electret membrane can be lighter and more flexible.
Both technologies use transformers to drive AC signal voltage up.

I once looked at a DIY EST headphone guide and looks like the driver is an ultra thin BoPET layer sandwiched between 2 charged steel grilles that function as stators. What's so different here out of genuine curiosity?

This design suggests passive conducive (plated) membrane - not electret.
So, the main difference from something like Shure KSE electrostats - is that it has high voltage amp that covers the entire range.
Sonion drivers can only cover upper frequencies otherwise the size of the transformers has to be too large for an IEM.
My guess is that use of Electret allows to use lighter membrane and/or lower voltage ratio transformers, that can be smaller.

The question is whether the brands which use Sonion electret drivers masquerading as "electrostatic" drivers are complicit. They would be complicit if they knew that they were using electret drivers yet marketing them as electrostatic drivers.

Technically it's not a deception. The membrane moving principle is the same, thus the same will be effect on the sound.
In fact, theoretically Electret might be superior in some applications because it provides static charge, eliminating need for push-pull but most likely allows to induce stronger force at the same distance between 2 electrodes.
Why all this outrage, blaming Sonion for riding 30 year old audiophile hype about EST, - if the end result is the same, and people are buying products based on reviews & impressions more than anything.
If the difference of using EST vs Electret vs BA can be affected by placebo effect from said "deception" - that suggests difference wasn't worthy of investment to begin with. So, until someone convinces me that Electret may lose charge overtime or dynamically change charge, sufficiently to affect the sound, - why should I care how they call it for marketing reasons?
Shuoer Tape was a deception. It never sounded to me like EST. It was EarBridge ABM.
BGVP Zero however, - does, so whatever they're using - at least sounds as good or better than a good sub-micron planar(like Tin P1). I believe it's TDK EST driver.
I, personally am at the point, when with rare exception(like L5 just for the tuning), will seek IEMs where treble is done by an EST type drivers.
This is the first time in 18 month, I don't miss ier-z1r anymore.

 

[baskingshark]

Electret is material that can hold permanent electrical charge. Voltage equivalent can be up to several thousands volt but typically - couple of hundred. In this simplified scheme, all Electret is doing - is replacing Bias Voltage Supply.
I don't see advantage of using Electret over connected metal plated conductive membrane, unless electret membrane can be lighter and more flexible.
Both technologies use transformers to drive AC signal voltage up.

This design suggests passive conducive (plated) membrane - not electret.
So, the main difference from something like Shure KSE electrostats - is that it has high voltage amp that covers the entire range.
Sonion drivers can only cover upper frequencies otherwise the size of the transformers has to be too large for an IEM.
My guess is that use of Electret allows to use lighter membrane and/or lower voltage ratio transformers, that can be smaller.

Technically it's not a deception. The membrane moving principle is the same, thus the same will be effect on the sound.
In fact, theoretically Electret might be superior in some applications because it provides static charge, eliminating need for push-pull but most likely allows to induce stronger force at the same distance between 2 electrodes.
Why all this outrage, blaming Sonion for riding 30 year old audiophile hype about EST, - if the end result is the same, and people are buying products based on reviews & impressions more than anything.
If the difference of using EST vs Electret vs BA can be affected by placebo effect from said "deception" - that suggests difference wasn't worthy of investment to begin with. So, until someone convinces me that Electret may lose charge overtime or dynamically change charge, sufficiently to affect the sound, - why should I care how they call it for marketing reasons?
Shuoer Tape was a deception. It never sounded to me like EST. It was EarBridge ABM.
BGVP Zero however, - does, so whatever they're using - at least sounds as good or better than a good sub-micron planar(like Tin P1). I believe it's TDK EST driver.
I, personally am at the point, when with rare exception(like L5 just for the tuning), will seek IEMs where treble is done by an EST type drivers.
This is the first time in 18 month, I don't miss ier-z1r anymore.

Thanks for the explanation.

I'm no expert, but correct me if I'm mistaken. Technically an electret which has holds predetermined charges can run out of charges and be rendered inoperable? But of course in this CHIFI hobby, we will probably get another hypetrain in the mail long before any electret charges run out haha.

These look great! I wonder how these will compare with the Tea.

As someone who is extremely new to the hobby (started in July), I find myself quite overwhelmed with all of the options in this price range and the new releases coming out. As a sufferer of upgraditis and gear acquisition syndrome, I find myself GASsing at all of the new IEMs coming out and have hopped on the hype train of many models. As a grad student with a limited budget, I have to consider my purchases, but since July I've already ordered a bunch (albeit fairly low cost/good deals) of IEMs, the Soundmagic E11C, FAAEAL Hibiscus, and in transit are the BQEYZ vending machine and Campfire Orions I got at a great discount.

How do you all deal with the hype and enthusiasm for new offerings, especially those with reasonable prices/are more budget friendly?

Well if something is truly good, it will still be recommended a few months or even years after it is released (after the initial hypetrain has died down), then I think we have a winner here. Eg BLON BL-03 despite its flaws, maybe Final Audio E3000 is still recommended and given a good opinion by consumers.

I guess the cheap budget stuff is useful to see what sound signature you like, then upgrade from there. I made the mistake of circulating in the budget segment for a year or so, kept getting sidegrades (or at most marginal upgrades). The stuff does add up to a mdifi or TOTL set one day. Though there's big diminishing returns the higher you go up the ladder, so just set a comfortable limit to how much you wanna spend and keep to it. There's always gonna be a new flavour of the month (or even flavour of the week nowadays), and new hypetrains will keep leaving the station faster than we can keep up to date.

 

[superuser1]

Did @audio123 divulge the name of the aural brilliance that is awaiting us in the form of a new iem.

 

[superuser1]

Mangird MT4 ( 1 dd + 3 BA (2 sonion/ 1 Knowles)) = 200 usd



https://www.linsoul.com/collections/all/products/mangird-mt4

890 Yuan on Taobao... seems Lindoul is charging a premium.

 

[Owludio]

Technically an electret which has holds predetermined charges can run out of charges and be rendered inoperable? But of course in this CHIFI hobby, we will probably get another hypetrain in the mail long before any electret charges run out haha.

Poor quality electret would be my concern if Chi-Fi replicates this tech. Sonion, though, is respectable brand. Sonion BA in Mofasest Trio almost restored my faith in mids done by BAs.
And you're right, that by the time that happens, - we may have new gen of BC, ABM, or Heil Air-motion in IEM size, Who knows?
We will definitely be riding new hype train by then.
But for now, something like MEST where BC driver bypasses ear canal for upper mids & treble, which reflections and resonances are the hardest to control and this is what making its imaging and stage so good. My next closely watched target for sure. Truly innovative.
Also, I expect those cheap TDK EST making their way to budget IEMs. BGVP Zero was great proof of concept, but now, it's time to get serious. No more Single DD or traditional hybrids for me, unless it's a Tuning Masterpiece or has super fit & isolation.

 

[FSTOP]

Did @audio123 divulge the name of the aural brilliance that is awaiting us in the form of a new iem.

Been waiting to hear that train chug down the track too. Hopefully it's just what I want: the best iem ever made in the history of the world, that is under $100, and fits my ears like a custom mold.

 

[JEHL]

Poor quality electret would be my concern if Chi-Fi replicates this tech. Sonion, though, is respectable brand. Sonion BA in Mofasest Trio almost restored my faith in mids done by BAs.
And you're right, that by the time that happens, - we may have new gen of BC, ABM, or Heil Air-motion in IEM size, Who knows?
We will definitely be riding new hype train by then.
But for now, something like MEST where BC driver bypasses ear canal for upper mids & treble, which reflections and resonances are the hardest to control and this is what making its imaging and stage so good. My next closely watched target for sure. Truly innovative.
Also, I expect those cheap TDK EST making their way to budget IEMs. BGVP Zero was great proof of concept, but now, it's time to get serious. No more Single DD or traditional hybrids for me, unless it's a Tuning Masterpiece or has super fit & isolation.

So if I understand any of this, BC delivers more consistent treble response than any other type of driver?

 

[Owludio]

So if I understand any of this, BC delivers more consistent treble response than any other type of driver?

Upper mids and lower treble are the most critical for imaging. It's most audible. Upper treble is also resonating unpredictably in different ear canals but differences in levels are less noticeable there.
I'm admiring the brilliance of the UM solution of that problem - bypass the ear-canal.
If I understand it correctly, shape of ear canal has minimum effect on Bone-conduction carried frequencies, which i assume are somewhere around 3-10K, since 10K+ done by ESTs.

So, with good fit - yes, more consistent. Ideally would be custom, but for those whom universal resin shell fits well, probably too. I'm one of them, so I regret missing a sale on universal. In any case, next year I might go for it, but would like more reviews & impressions first. Could be innovation of the year. Fascinating.

 

[Nimweth]

Poor quality electret would be my concern if Chi-Fi replicates this tech. Sonion, though, is respectable brand. Sonion BA in Mofasest Trio almost restored my faith in mids done by BAs.
And you're right, that by the time that happens, - we may have new gen of BC, ABM, or Heil Air-motion in IEM size, Who knows?
We will definitely be riding new hype train by then.
But for now, something like MEST where BC driver bypasses ear canal for upper mids & treble, which reflections and resonances are the hardest to control and this is what making its imaging and stage so good. My next closely watched target for sure. Truly innovative.
Also, I expect those cheap TDK EST making their way to budget IEMs. BGVP Zero was great proof of concept, but now, it's time to get serious. No more Single DD or traditional hybrids for me, unless it's a Tuning Masterpiece or has super fit & isolation.

Can you explain what BC and ABM mean? These initials are new to me.

 

[ChrisOc]

Electret is material that can hold permanent electrical charge. Voltage equivalent can be up to several thousands volt but typically - couple of hundred. In this simplified scheme, all Electret is doing - is replacing Bias Voltage Supply.
I don't see advantage of using Electret over connected metal plated conductive membrane, unless electret membrane can be lighter and more flexible.
Both technologies use transformers to drive AC signal voltage up.

This design suggests passive conducive (plated) membrane - not electret.
So, the main difference from something like Shure KSE electrostats - is that it has high voltage amp that covers the entire range.
Sonion drivers can only cover upper frequencies otherwise the size of the transformers has to be too large for an IEM.
My guess is that use of Electret allows to use lighter membrane and/or lower voltage ratio transformers, that can be smaller.

Technically it's not a deception. The membrane moving principle is the same, thus the same will be effect on the sound.
In fact, theoretically Electret might be superior in some applications because it provides static charge, eliminating need for push-pull but most likely allows to induce stronger force at the same distance between 2 electrodes.
Why all this outrage, blaming Sonion for riding 30 year old audiophile hype about EST, - if the end result is the same, and people are buying products based on reviews & impressions more than anything.
If the difference of using EST vs Electret vs BA can be affected by placebo effect from said "deception" - that suggests difference wasn't worthy of investment to begin with. So, until someone convinces me that Electret may lose charge overtime or dynamically change charge, sufficiently to affect the sound, - why should I care how they call it for marketing reasons?
Shuoer Tape was a deception. It never sounded to me like EST. It was EarBridge ABM.
BGVP Zero however, - does, so whatever they're using - at least sounds as good or better than a good sub-micron planar(like Tin P1). I believe it's TDK EST driver.
I, personally am at the point, when with rare exception(like L5 just for the tuning), will seek IEMs where treble is done by an EST type drivers.
This is the first time in 18 month, I don't miss ier-z1r anymore.

Fascinating insight into electrostatic drivers. I have learnt something new. As @Slater said this may be a question of semantics.

 

[PhonoPhi]

Upper mids and lower treble are the most critical for imaging. It's most audible. Upper treble is also resonating unpredictably in different ear canals but differences in levels are less noticeable there.
I'm admiring the brilliance of the UM solution of that problem - bypass the ear-canal.
If I understand it correctly, shape of ear canal has minimum effect on Bone-conduction carried frequencies, which i assume are somewhere around 3-10K, since 10K+ done by ESTs.

So, with good fit - yes, more consistent. Ideally would be custom, but for those whom universal resin shell fits well, probably too. I'm one of them, so I regret missing a sale on universal. In any case, next year I might go for it, but would like more reviews & impressions first. Could be innovation of the year. Fascinating.

Is the long-term effect of bone conduction of high frequencies on ear and brain known?

What is specifically concerning that the intensity of those bone conduction frequencies may not be controlled directly but by the listening preferences at more audible frequencies.

 

[baskingshark]

So the TRN vs KZ driver nuclear race has restarted in earnest. Even TWS sets are not exempt from driver wars LOL. Though as usual, driver count ain't as important as tuning and implementation.

I like their ambitiousness in moving from the budget market to try to enter the midfi market. The KZ ASX is > $100 USD, so would be interesting to see KZ muscling into the big boy's territory (their last venture into the > $100 USD market wasn't too successful in the KZ AS16).

TRN V90 was quite well received, so I'm looking foward to this S version which is I think is essentially a "pro" version. I didn't really like their last 2 multi driver behemoths, the TRN BA8 and TRN VX, they were technically proficient, but had too hot upper mids/treble and were quite expensive at launch (so not as good price to performance ratio).

 

[RikudouGoku]

So the TRN vs KZ driver nuclear race has restarted in earnest. Even TWS sets are not exempt from driver wars LOL. Though as usual, driver count ain't as important as tuning and implementation.

I like their ambitiousness in moving from the budget market to try to enter the midfi market. The KZ ASX is > $100 USD, so would be interesting to see KZ muscling into the big boy's territory (their last venture into the > $100 USD market wasn't too successful in the KZ AS16).

TRN V90 was quite well received, so I'm looking foward to this S version which is I think is essentially a "pro" version. I didn't really like their last 2 multi driver behemoths, the TRN BA8 and TRN VX, they were technically proficient, but had too hot upper mids/treble and were quite expensive at launch (so not as good price to performance ratio).

That KZ ASX faceplate looks really nice.

 

[MrDelicious]

Electret is material that can hold permanent electrical charge. Voltage equivalent can be up to several thousands volt but typically - couple of hundred. In this simplified scheme, all Electret is doing - is replacing Bias Voltage Supply.
I don't see advantage of using Electret over connected metal plated conductive membrane, unless electret membrane can be lighter and more flexible.
Both technologies use transformers to drive AC signal voltage up.

This design suggests passive conducive (plated) membrane - not electret.
So, the main difference from something like Shure KSE electrostats - is that it has high voltage amp that covers the entire range.
Sonion drivers can only cover upper frequencies otherwise the size of the transformers has to be too large for an IEM.
My guess is that use of Electret allows to use lighter membrane and/or lower voltage ratio transformers, that can be smaller.

Technically it's not a deception. The membrane moving principle is the same, thus the same will be effect on the sound.
In fact, theoretically Electret might be superior in some applications because it provides static charge, eliminating need for push-pull but most likely allows to induce stronger force at the same distance between 2 electrodes.
Why all this outrage, blaming Sonion for riding 30 year old audiophile hype about EST, - if the end result is the same, and people are buying products based on reviews & impressions more than anything.
If the difference of using EST vs Electret vs BA can be affected by placebo effect from said "deception" - that suggests difference wasn't worthy of investment to begin with. So, until someone convinces me that Electret may lose charge overtime or dynamically change charge, sufficiently to affect the sound, - why should I care how they call it for marketing reasons?
Shuoer Tape was a deception. It never sounded to me like EST. It was EarBridge ABM.
BGVP Zero however, - does, so whatever they're using - at least sounds as good or better than a good sub-micron planar(like Tin P1). I believe it's TDK EST driver.
I, personally am at the point, when with rare exception(like L5 just for the tuning), will seek IEMs where treble is done by an EST type drivers.
This is the first time in 18 month, I don't miss ier-z1r anymore.

Is the charge permanent? Doesn't it dissipate over time?