[stavros.m]

MLE's position on Atmos for headphones and DTS Headphone X is well known and has been stated many times. They don't work well for him when applied to standard 5.1 and 7.1. He has however said some good things about games with native Atmos mixes. If you want to see others' opinions then type Atmos into the thread search box or if its a particular user whose opinon you want then check their post history from their profile. You can do the same for the Hel as this was discussed at length when MLE did his Hel review.

But while we're here, I'll sum up. Use the equipment you already have first to determine whether Atmos, DTS, Boom 3D, Hesuvi or whatever other software VSS works well for you. If you find one (or more than one) that does then it's time to consider getting the Hel or another stereo input only dac/amp.
The Hel has excellent components and performance by all accounts so whether Atmos for headphone or whatever other software VSS solutions work well with it will be down to your own HRTF compatibility with the VSS in question and the headphones you are using rather than the Hel itself.

As for GSX1000, not ideal to run it into the Hel because, IIRC, MLE said it can't push GSX VSS out of the speaker line-out meaning you would have to double-amp from the unit's headphone- out to the Hel's line-in.
If you want an endpoint dac/amp that you can pair with other hardware based VSS units, it's best to get one with optical in and accordingly, you would also want the original source dac/amp to be able to push VSS out of its speaker line-out, again, preferably via optical out.

Mayflower Arc version 2 is one option for the former. It's more expensive than the Hel but has some advantages in that it offers optical-in, has an optional bass boost feature and the wall wart for power supply is optional, not mandatory (i.e. you can use it if you want to drive particularly power hungry cans but in most scenarios usb power-only should be fine).

Here is one opinion via a three-way comparison of the two along with the Fulla by Brian Phillips aka Badseed Tech:



As for gaming dac/amps that can push VSS out of optical, the only ones that I know of are Creative's SBX capable dac/amps like the G6 and X7 and for most headphones, they'd be more than enough by themselves anyway without a need for anything else like the Hel or the Arc (law of diminishing returns and all that). There are also the Smyth Realisers but they are a whole 'nother level of price and complexity and again, as with the G6 and X7, you likely wouldn't be needing an additional endpoint gaming dac/amp in that instance.

As always, it's best to buy whatever products are competing for your interest from a no quibble return/refund friendly vendor so that you can directly compare them yourself and return the one(s) you don't want. To reiterate though, it would be better for you to first work out whether Atmos/DTS/Boom 3D/ Hesuvi etc. work well for you on the hardware and headphones you have to hand before committing to purchase of any stereo only gaming dac/amps.

thank you very much for the info. My friend won the Hel, but coming from a gaming headset with 7.1 sound i think I will tell him to try to sell the Hel and bye the G6 or X3 since he only games on PC.

thanks

 

[SierraMadre]

You're welcome.

If he won it then no need to sell it unless he needs the money. It's a fine piece of kit, especially for free. Tell him to see how he likes it with Atmos/DTS/Boom/Hesuvi etc. first. If he doesn't like it enough to keep it, he can sell it of course, his prerogative. but it would be a waste of a good piece of free gear if those VSS solutions work for him and he gets rid of the Hel regardless.

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

I second keeping the Hel and trying the software programs. For sure. For one, the Hel's mic input is goshdarn amazing. I love analog and manual mic volume control. The fact it's all analog is so much better to me than volume control tied to Windows. I hate that.

 

[stavros.m]

Hey thank both of you i told him i will try a few for him, since if he keeps them i will be selling him my dt990's i downloaded so far the boom3d and the WavesNX trial windows app. Not sure how i feel about the Waves havent tried the boom3d yet.

 

[SierraMadre]

Hey thank both of you i told him i will try a few for him, since if he keeps them i will be selling him my dt990's i downloaded so far the boom3d and the WavesNX trial windows app. Not sure how i feel about the Waves havent tried the boom3d yet.

Waves, you need to use with a webcam at the very least (seeing as you don't have the headtracker). Of the 3 presets (IIRC, it's movie, game and music or normal), I think normal had the least reverb and was the most natural sounding. Also make sure you set the source device that Waves attaches itself to as 7.1, and any if there are any in-game audio settings for speaker config in the game you are playing as 7.1 or 5.1 speakers.

CORRECTIVE EDIT:

Presets are actually "Multimedia", "Movie" and "Voice".
In the context of gaming and movies, multimedia and movie are the best. Movie is the most holographic in terms of depth projection but also has the most reverb, I'd say about the same as SXFI Gen 2, maybe a bit less. Multimedia is more balanced, less projected depth but also less reverb.

 

[stavros.m]

Waves, you need to use with a webcam at the very least (seeing as you don't have the headtracker). Of the 3 presets (IIRC, it's movie, game and music or normal), I think normal had the least reverb and was the most natural sounding. Also make sure you set the source device that Waves attaches itself to as 7.1, and any if there are any in-game audio settings for speaker config in the game you are playing as 7.1 or 5.1 speakers.

Maybe install the wrong app i dont seem to see any of those presets only Multimedia / Movie / Voice. Also i dont seem to have any option to in my source device to set it to 7.1

 

[SierraMadre]

Maybe install the wrong app i dont seem to see any of those presets only Multimedia / Movie / Voice. Also i dont seem to have any option to in my source device to set it to 7.1

No, that's the right one. I misremembered the name of the presets. I remember now.

Multimedia is the one with least amount of reverb. movie is the one with most. Choose whichever sounds best for you. Avoid the "voice" preset for gaming and movies, it's intended for vocal music.

Set the source device to 7.1 in windows sound manager control panel and any in-game settings to 5.1 or 7.1 *speakers*, whichever is higher.

*To clarify, in order to do this, you need to attach Waves to a 5.1 or 7.1 capable audio source device. This can be your onboard sound chip or an external sound card or USB dac/amp (if multichannel capable).

If there are no in-game settings, don't worry about it. With the webcam acting as head tracker you're good to go *after* you've entered your head measurements (inter-aural arc and circumference) - should be accessible by clicking the gear-shaped icon for settings.

Have a look at the support manual if you need guidance as to how to measure these. If it still doesn't sound right to you after that then maybe it's not for you. Make sure you test in multiple games though as every VSS can perform better in some games and worse than others.

Clicking "sweet spot" sets the anchor point.

 

[Velsu]

No, you absolutely want “the headtracker stuff”, it’s an integral part of what makes Waves NX among the best of the nu-wave 3D VSS solutions. Without the headtracker you might as well just buy the software app or https://www.turtlebeach.com/products/atlas-edge-pc-audio-enhancer and use with your Beyers or an enthusiast set of planars and be done with it.

To clarify, Waves NX allows you to lock an anchor point (which should be your head-on listening position) so that the virtual speaker setup is stationary as would be the case with a real surround speaker system. Even just the micro-movements your head makes as you breathe contribute to the holography. Mobius and Orbit‘s implementation of Waves also allows for easy auto re-centering whereby if your head strays significantly off the anchor point for 5 seconds (I think it was 5), perhaps because you are adjusting to a more comfortable position, then it will automatically calibrate the newest stationary head position as the new anchor point. It works very well.

If you want to preview Waves NX while you are waiting for your Mobius, download the Waves NX central app free trial and try it with your Beyer’s. The app can set a webcam as a proxy for the headtracker. You set your Sound Blaster as the multichannel source device and ensure that SBX is off. You could even try AutoEqimg the Beyers (see the first link in my response to Illram above) for best results.

Ahh this is interesting. Plenty of reddit posts and reviews online mention that head tracker is just a "gimmick" and it is unnecessary for gaming, unless doing VR so i was under an impression that Cloud Orbit without it is a great deal. It seems they treat Waves NX as something standalone/separate.

I must say this is all confusing but i will trust Your word and just stick to Audeze Mobius. I heard they are a little more comfortable. Is there any resource how to start with setting it up once it arrives? I heard its not usual "out of the box" plug and play stuff and most people use Mobius without all it's features before they realize they need to set it up.

And thank You for sticking around and answering all this barrage of questions i feel uneasy bugging You all the time

 

[TONEDEPTH]

will you buy the Audeze Mobius??

 

[stavros.m]

No, that's the right one. I misremembered the name of the presets. I remember now.

Multimedia is the one with least amount of reverb. movie is the one with most. Choose whichever sounds best for you. Avoid the "voice" preset for gaming and movies, it's intended for vocal music.

Set the source device to 7.1 in windows sound manager control panel and any in-game settings to 5.1 or 7.1 *speakers*, whichever is higher.

*To clarify, in order to do this, you need to attach Waves to a 5.1 or 7.1 capable audio source device. This can be your onboard sound chip or an external sound card or USB dac/amp (if multichannel capable).

If there are no in-game settings, don't worry about it. With the webcam acting as head tracker you're good to go *after* you've entered your head measurements (inter-aural arc and circumference) - should be accessible by clicking the gear-shaped icon for settings.

Have a look at the support manual if you need guidance as to how to measure these. If it still doesn't sound right to you after that then maybe it's not for you. Make sure you test in multiple games though as every VSS can perform better in some games and worse than others.

Clicking "sweet spot" sets the anchor point.

thanks for the info ya for some reason plugging my dt990 in the syba sonic amp\dac doesn't sound very good with the wavesNX but from the pc it sounds better. Not sure how much i like it yet but something to try out for a bit. I think i mighjt need to get used to the reverb

 

[AppleheadMay]

Anybody else not getting email updates of watched threads anymore?

 

[SierraMadre]

thanks for the info ya for some reason plugging my dt990 in the syba sonic amp\dac doesn't sound very good with the wavesNX but from the pc it sounds better. Not sure how much i like it yet but something to try out for a bit. I think i mighjt need to get used to the reverb

Like I said, the source audio device that Waves NX piggy backs on to needs to be multichannel capable. It must be capable of receiving and recognising a discrete multichannel surround signal. The Syba is just a stereo dac/amp so Waves was only being given a stereo source feed to virtualise so it's no wonder it wasn't that great for you. You were getting a virtualised stereo speaker setup rather than a virtual 7.1 surround setup. I repeat, you need a 5.1 or 7.1 capable audio device as source in the first instance. That could be your onboard soundchip if it's capable or an external dac/amp that has those capabilities like a Sound blaster G6.

Choose the audio source from the Waves Central app and then ensure that it's set to 5.1 or 7/1. Can't remember if you can do this straight from the Waves app, hence why I recommended doing it through the Windows sound manager just to be sure, see below screen shot. I can't find my headtracker at present and Waves NX isn't installed on my Surface anyway, it's on my gaming rig which isn't here, so I can't illustrate the process exactly but it shows audio device configuration via Windows OS including the access path.

Imagine that I have Waves NX installed and I have chosen the 7.1 capable SXFI AMP (SXFI turned off as in this hypothetical example - I am simply using it as a multichannel decoding capable dac/amp) as the audio source device for Waves to attach itself to and for output from there.
IIRC, the only difference between this screenshot and an actual Waves NX config would be that the virtual audio device "Waves NX" would be set as the windows default audio device rather than the SXFI here. If you are able to set the Waves NX audio device as 7.1 too either in the app or in the sound manager, then do so.

Ahh this is interesting. Plenty of reddit posts and reviews online mention that head tracker is just a "gimmick" and it is unnecessary for gaming, unless doing VR so i was under an impression that Cloud Orbit without it is a great deal. It seems they treat Waves NX as something standalone/separate.

I must say this is all confusing but i will trust Your word and just stick to Audeze Mobius. I heard they are a little more comfortable. Is there any resource how to start with setting it up once it arrives? I heard its not usual "out of the box" plug and play stuff and most people use Mobius without all it's features before they realize they need to set it up.

And thank You for sticking around and answering all this barrage of questions i feel uneasy bugging You all the time

nonsense. Sadly it's nothing more than arrogantly dismissive and closed minded ignorance from a bunch of people (including pro reviewers many of whom know far more about audio than I ever will and thus should know better) who don't understand the purpose of the head tracking implementation in the Mobius, Orbit S and Waves NX headtracker VSS solutions.

If Waves NX or another headtracking VSS solution doesn't work for an individual's HRTF and accordingly they don't rate it, that's absolutely fine; universally effective VSS is difficult if not impossible. But when they dismiss the principle of leveraging headtracking for VSS with "Meh, head tracking is a gimmick, it's only useful for VR!", it displays a fundamental ignorance as to how 3D audio is currently implemented in VR not to mention a complete lack of understanding in how the ears receive audio cues and how the brain processes them. Waves NX may not have worked for them but that'll be down to their own personal HRTF compatibility with the Waves algorithm, not because headtracking is a pointless gimmick. If anything, unbeknownst to them, the headtracking will have prevented their opinion /experience of Waves NX VSS from being even worse.

To be clear, there are two reasons and implementations for headtracking. One is VR and the other is VSS enhancement.

VR

VR revolves at least in part around physical movement. If not the entire body, then the upper body for motion control or al least the head for camera control as camera view tends to be tied to the physical movements of the user's head mounted display unit (HMU), i.e. the directions that the user is facing at a given time and the directions that they turn their heads towards instead of the manipulations of a mouse or a gamepad's analogue stick. VR audio tends to be pre-programmed into the game and handled by the CPU of the host system by itself or in conjunction with a dedicated dac/amp and audio processing chip in the HMU package. It is optimised to follow these head movements and keep the audio cues relative to the game environment and the user's head position. One of the major VR VSS engines used by game devs is actually a specialist VR version of Waves. In any case, whatever the VR audio engine, whoever it's from, such games don't typically require separate hardware to implement this experience. In fact, many VR headsets allow you to remove or bypass the included stock headphones and use your own stereo cans plugged to the headset or the PC if you like instead. Some VR headsets even forgo headphones altogether to keep costs down. Even in that latter instance, a separate audio device with its own headtracking would be unnecessary because a gyroscopic headtracker is already in the HMU itself. Without it, it wouldn't be able to track the VR world camera view to the user's head movements. The Mobius and Orbit S official documentation and online FAQs actually tell you to turn Waves VSS off for VR because Waves, Audeze and Kingston are fully aware of the aforementioned.


(As a side note, Mobius control software beta has trialled mapping gyroscopic head motion to the cans for quick snapping the game camera relative to the direction of the user's gaze while in a kind of pseudo VR hybrid implementation. However this beta came some time after launch and was never the original raison d'etre for head tracking in the Mobius.)


Head tracking for Non-VR VSS

The core purpose of Mobius's 3D audio is like any other VSS solution (and I don't mean just the nu-wave 3D audio VSS solutions that have taken off over the past couple of years), that is to mimic a true physical surround speaker setup as far as is possible using various audio acoustic trickery. Thing is though, headphones are stuck to your head/ears. Any head movements, how ever small naturally result in the actual physical source of audio, the headphone drivers, moving with you as they are clamped to the sides of your head.
On the one hand, this can be a source of immersion due to the focus and isolation, particularly in the case of closed-backs but on the other hand, it's not realistic. . . It's not representative of how we perceive and process audio cues from our surrounding environment.

You will no doubt have listened to a true surround speaker setup at some point in your life, if not in the home AV space then at the very least in the cinema. In such a setup, do the speakers adjust themselves in angle or position if the user moves their head, let alone their body position? No. When you set-up a surround system, you fix your channels and speakers, perhaps do some calibration for distances, time delay and other environmental characteristics to optimise the experience to an ideal listening position, a sweet spot and then you leave it like that until if and when you decide it needs to be recalibrated, moved or modified. But in the here and now of your listening session while playing game or watching a film, the setup is fixed. If you shift your position at all, whether just tilting your head to the side or a more substantial repositioning of your body such as leaning over onto the left armrest when you were previously leaning on the right, tilting a reclining chair back etc., the speaker setup remains fixed in the same position with time delay and whatever else set as per last calibration.


So even if a given VSS is otherwise amazing, even if it's an otherwise perfect replication of a true surround setup, the moment you introduce movement that physically moves the source of the sound - the headphone drivers - in tandem with your own personal anatomical audio receiver -your ears - that simple fact in and as of itself prevents true replication of a multichannel speaker system.

Now, that's not to claim that listening to a multichannel spear system is a perfect replication of the way audio behaves in real-life either, but when the positional cues of the audio environment come from a fixed sphere or soundstage that only changes per the instructions of the source content / audio mixing while the listening ears are left free to regularly shift in position (however minimally / otherwise imperceptibly) due to the head's micro-movements resulting from respiration, chewing / swallowing, miscellaneous small shifts in head position etc. for comfort, - that is much closer and more realistic to not only a true multichannel speaker setup but also to how we perceive and process sounds in real life.

Those micro-movements help our ears and brains better pinpoint location from direction and depth perception etc. A crude way of demonstrating this without headtracking would be to try it out in a non-VR game with any VSS solution (doesn't need to be Waves). Find a fixed point audio cue (preferably a constant one or a repeating one) that's faint or slightly vague in terms of positioning. Cues made quiet because they are far away are ideal for this. Alternatively, you could pick a louder cue from a busy audio environment where there are other cues and general background noise competing for your attention, congesting the soundscape and hampering precise imaging of that particular cue in question. Cues that are continuously sounding (e.g. a waterfall) or providing a repeated but vague cycle of samples somewhere off screen / out of sight, are best suited for our purposes. If possible it should be one that you couldn't see in the first place so you really are vague about exact imaging of its location as source.

Once you have chosen your sample cue and you can vaguely image/place it, put the controller down or disengage from the keyboard so that the game engine camera is still/stationary. Now try listening to it through headphones. Move your head from side to side (if necessary hold your cans to your head if they are loose or in danger of falling off), back and forth and mix it up with a combination of both. For the most part, the cue in question won't image any better. It won't become any clearer, more solid or distinct because the actual real-life source of the sound, the drivers, are moving in tandem with your head. And here's the rub, if it does improve at all, that will be due to the headphones' movements not exactly matching that of your head.

For the next part, keep the headphones on but this time, keep your head still and use the mouse or analogue stick to give the game camera a good shake. The audio cue will become a bit clearer and more solid because your attention is focused on following that source cue in motion even though your head / ears are relatively unmoving and moreover, because the audio processing of that cue will subtly change its audio characteristics or properties in line with the change in position relative to your in-game avatar's stationary position in the game's audio environment.

It's the same with VSS + headtracking only in reverse. The virtual environment and cues are anchored in that instance, and instead of the game camera, it's your head that's moving and changing your relative position in relation to the cue. When the virtualised speaker setup has an anchor point versus a fixed listening position, moving your head however little, will facilitate easier recognition and both conscious tracking and subconscious imaging of the cue in question. That's due to the natural audio 'decoding' capabilities of our ears and brains.

All that is why Mobius / Orbit and Waves NX has head tracking. It's why Redscape offers their own usb headtracker and VSS software as a competitor to Waves. It is why the Smyth Realiser A16 comes bundled with a head tracker, as did its predecessor, the years old A8, and why the Beyer Dynamic Headzone Pro from over a decade ago (one version of which was reviewed by MLE) back when VR had no presence in the home entertainment space, was marketed as the ultimate luxury headphone VSS dac/amp complete with ridiculous looking antenna emitter and headphone mounted aerial despite being intended for conventional forms of multimedia. None of those products were intended for VR, they were all intended for movies, music and conventional gaming in VSS.

 

[474194]

Hey SM / Guys...

I was hoping to report some good news on my attempt @ Hesuvi, but nothing but snags. No rush for this as I don't have time till the weekend to tackle this project.

My first snag was Hesuvi => Fulla2. When you click configure only "Stereo" option. Ok, no worries, I remember SM mentioning onboard soundcard w/optical so scratch Fulla2 and focus on optical Hugo2.

I never had a need for onboard soundcard since we use USB DAC/AMP, so I installed the ALC898 software. After M$ driver updates, all good. Optical into Hugo2 working.

Snag, the configure button is greyed out. I did not want to install VB cable because latency, but did anyways. VB cable downloaded and de-compressed. It's corrupt, doesn't install. I tried plugging HP in the back of the motherboard and that is fine, can configure 5.1 / 7.1. But I'm trying to get this going for optical.

I read something about a dummy 3.5mm, so I ordered a DIY 3.5mm to try.

I'll start researching some more, but any hints in the right direction would be great.

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

I remember Hesuvi being a massive chore to setup properly. Once I removed it, I certainly didn't wanna go through that hassle again.

But I think once you get it, it really does work really well.

 

[deadchip12]

I notice everytime when I enable dolby atmos for headphone for surround effect and then after a while disable it for pure stereo, the volume becomes really small. Restarting the computer raises the volume to normal again. Any idea?