Grado modders go Magnum
Nov 6, 2015 at 2:35 PM Post #3,616 of 4,994
Originally Posted by stratocaster /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 *SNIP*
 
Yes. These bring down the treble, beginning at about 5khz,  10kHz is brought down about 4-5db.

 
Great stuff....you know, I might try this with one of my more traditional builds (stock L-Cush, wooden cups, etc...). 
 
Are you doing press-fit or foam-fit for the drivers?
 
Nov 6, 2015 at 2:51 PM Post #3,617 of 4,994
Are you doing press-fit or foam-fit for the drivers?

Press-fit, but I have to admit that I am not a strong believer in the different wood, different sound stuff. Other variables (pads, cup depth, cup diameter, resonance reduction through damping, no air leakage between driver and cup[less sub-bass] etc.) are more important to me.
 
Nov 6, 2015 at 3:12 PM Post #3,618 of 4,994
Hey all! Another pad swap update!
 
Major note to remember: Every little adjustment makes a difference to the sound. I think you all will be doing a disservice to yourselves if you don't experiment with different pad configurations!
 
 
First, here are all of the pads I tinkered with:
 
 
 

 
 
In essence here is how I would characterize each pad, starting from left to right in the image above:
 
1) Generic PX100 pad (came with my generic-L-Cush pads). Not worth your time on their own. Small sounding. Worse than using no pads at all IMO.
 
2) Generic S-Cush pad (came with quarter mod already done). This pad brings out big bass presence but the soundstage is too restricted sounding. Reversing this pad so that the big circle faces your ear, exposing more driver holes, does help balance the sound but the conmfort of this configuration is too poor to recommend.
 
3) Generic L-Cush. These sound pretty much just like the stock L-Cush from Grado. Nice, sparkly treble, faint bass, small-ish soundstage. Not a big fan, really. 
 
4) HD414 Pads, sloppily quarter modded. These sounds pretty solid. I think they sound a little too warm when not quarter modded. Otherwise, nice, intimate sounding mids with solid bass. Soundstage is fairly wide but lacks depth. I could definitely live with the sound these give off if I had to.
 
5) Stretched out L-Cush, or "Flabby Bowls" as I shall call them. Before becoming stretched out, they sounded a lot like the generic L-Cush. In their Flabby Bowl form they sound...awesome!?!  Now that these bowls are stretched out, they sound way better BUT...they won't stay on because of how loose they are! They literally fall right off. That brings me to my next section: Conclusions
 
There are two winners at the end of all of my testing. I cannot pick one because both pad configurations sound great--it really is going to depend on mood or individual taste.
 
 
The first winner is the Quarter-Modded Sunflower Pad: This is excellent sounding much like the original sunflower pad that I discussed in a prior post but the hole in the center, exposing the driver holes, creates more depth to the soundstage rather than a flat, wide soundstage. The resulting sound of this pad setup is a pleasing, smooth treble, forward mids, and full bass. Rather non-fatiguing and pleasant. 
 
Here is a picture of said setup:

 
The second winner is the Fitted Flabby Bowl. This setup gives you a much more intimate and wide sound compared to the regular L-Cush with better bass but also retains the crisp, sparkly treble and pluck that people come to expect form a Grado-esque headphone. As I said above, the Flabby Bowls do not stay on, however...I found a way. I simply took the otherwise useless PX100 pads, ripped a hole in the middle, then stretched them over the cups to create a lip for the Flabby Bowls to grab onto. See the pic below:
 

 
 
Just take the stretched out L-Cush aka Flabby Bowl and stretch it over the lip created by the PX100 pad and you are done!
 
Nov 6, 2015 at 3:28 PM Post #3,619 of 4,994
  Hey all! Another pad swap update!
 
Major note to remember: Every little adjustment makes a difference to the sound. I think you all will be doing a disservice to yourselves if you don't experiment with different pad configurations!
 
 
First, here are all of the pads I tinkered with:
 
 
 

 
 
In essence here is how I would characterize each pad, starting from left to right in the image above:
 
1) Generic PX100 pad (came with my generic-L-Cush pads). Not worth your time on their own. Small sounding. Worse than using no pads at all IMO.
 
2) Generic S-Cush pad (came with quarter mod already done). This pad brings out big bass presence but the soundstage is too restricted sounding. Reversing this pad so that the big circle faces your ear, exposing more driver holes, does help balance the sound but the conmfort of this configuration is too poor to recommend.
 
3) Generic L-Cush. These sound pretty much just like the stock L-Cush from Grado. Nice, sparkly treble, faint bass, small-ish soundstage. Not a big fan, really. 
 
4) HD414 Pads, sloppily quarter modded. These sounds pretty solid. I think they sound a little too warm when not quarter modded. Otherwise, nice, intimate sounding mids with solid bass. Soundstage is fairly wide but lacks depth. I could definitely live with the sound these give off if I had to.
 
5) Stretched out L-Cush, or "Flabby Bowls" as I shall call them. Before becoming stretched out, they sounded a lot like the generic L-Cush. In their Flabby Bowl form they sound...awesome!?!  Now that these bowls are stretched out, they sound way better BUT...they won't stay on because of how loose they are! They literally fall right off. That brings me to my next section: Conclusions
 
There are two winners at the end of all of my testing. I cannot pick one because both pad configurations sound great--it really is going to depend on mood or individual taste.
 
 
The first winner is the Quarter-Modded Sunflower Pad: This is excellent sounding much like the original sunflower pad that I discussed in a prior post but the hole in the center, exposing the driver holes, creates more depth to the soundstage rather than a flat, wide soundstage. The resulting sound of this pad setup is a pleasing, smooth treble, forward mids, and full bass. Rather non-fatiguing and pleasant. 
 
Here is a picture of said setup:

 
The second winner is the Fitted Flabby Bowl. This setup gives you a much more intimate and wide sound compared to the regular L-Cush with better bass but also retains the crisp, sparkly treble and pluck that people come to expect form a Grado-esque headphone. As I said above, the Flabby Bowls do not stay on, however...I found a way. I simply took the otherwise useless PX100 pads, ripped a hole in the middle, then stretched them over the cups to create a lip for the Flabby Bowls to grab onto. See the pic below:
 

 
 
Just take the stretched out L-Cush aka Flabby Bowl and stretch it over the lip created by the PX100 pad and you are done!

Did you try any tape mods?
 
Nov 6, 2015 at 4:10 PM Post #3,620 of 4,994
  Press-fit, but I have to admit that I am not a strong believer in the different wood, different sound stuff. Other variables (pads, cup depth, cup diameter, resonance reduction through damping, no air leakage between driver and cup[less sub-bass] etc.) are more important to me.


I agree with somewhat (not completely on woods, but close...). I am working with 1 and a 1/4 inch cup length at the moment. Finished a pair that are 1 and a 1/2 that I need to test out. Diameter, I tend to just make the walls as thin as I can while leaving the narrowest possible lip for the driver to sit on.
 
My V6 are press-fit...well...close...they have a strip of tape around them...but I keep thinking about how Rhydon designed them to be foam fit. I might be going back and making mine foam fit to satisfy my curiosity. I want to hear them as he intended them to sound.
 
Nov 6, 2015 at 5:28 PM Post #3,621 of 4,994
I am a latecomer to the party here.  After lurking for a while I decided to redirect my budget from of buying a set of HD600 or HD650, or Shure SRH1840's off-the-shelf and instead build a set of Magnum V6's.  Based on the research I had time to do, the heritage of the Magnum drivers, and Rhydon's reputation here, my gut told me to commit to the V6 route, even though they had just been introduced and there was little information available on them at the time.
 
As I have been ordering and accumulating the associated component parts, I have had more time to research my choice and the design of the driver itself.  I love good designs.  Especially elegantly simple designs, as these are often the hardest to achieve.  At first pass the V6 seemed to be just a very straightforward design with no frills.  As I have looked further, I have found out just how deceptively simple and sophisticated this design is.
 
At first glance it appeared that the driver just had a clear plastic grille over the diaphragm to protect it, similar to the stamped metal and fabric protective covers on most designs. I searched "acoustic lens technology" and discovered some of the relative advantages of a round perforated waveguide lens.  In actuality, this V6 grille also serves as an acoustic lens, or waveguide. The physical characteristics of the lens are carefully managed to shape the wavefront, and control dispersion which tends to beam on-axis as frequencies climb upward. Further, the cavity between the lens and the diaphragm has a resonance that can be managed to smooth the response curve, and mitigate peaks and nulls. The distance between the diaphragm and the lens, the spacing and size of the holes, their shape, the thickness of the lens are all variable that come into play.  So beyond just functioning as a protective grille, I have discovered that the V6 incorporates a carefully engineered acoustic lens.
 
In car audio some installers would use aperiodic loading where possible.  Sealed, ported, and infinite baffle or free-air enclosures are common, but aperiodic loading is less commonly used.  Aperiodic loading generally models between ported and sealed enclosures and is thought of to some degree as a frequency-specific leaky sealed enclosure. Aperiodic loading can offer the advantages of smoothing the impedance and response curves of a driver, affects primarily bass frequencies, and the physically resistive aperiodic loading of a driver naturally damps signal overshoot and ringing.  The resistive material further tends to damp mid and high frequency reflections within the enclosure.  Use of this type of enclosure loading presumes that the front wave and back wave of the diaphragm are isolated from each other (which is somewhat inherent with headphones.)  In car audio an enclosure was fashioned just large enough to encompass the driver, then a double grille was attached between which acoustically resistive material (cloth, fiberglass, etc) could be layered.  The outermost grille was attached to allow easy removal so that the number of layers could be adjusted for optimum response.  
 
It occurred to me that a similar a loading could be used to tune bass frequencies in an open headphone cup and would be fairly easy to implement utilizing a slight modification of the grille structure commonly used in Grado variant designs.  By placing a double grille at the end of the cup, and adjusting the resistive material between the grilles to achieve the desired effect, the bass response could be optimized for a given driver/cup combination, while simultaneously mitigating internal mid and high frequency reflections within the cup
 
In actuality, correspondence with Rhydon revealed that aperiodic loading is already used in the design of the V6 driver (and Grado drivers as well).  It is elegantly incorporated within the driver itself. Essentially the back wave of the driver is controlled by a combination of the fabric membrane and holes spaced around the perimeter of the diaphragm.  Careful design in this area can significantly affect bass response, and overall frequency response.  
 
Grado mods that add holes in the fabric ring are altering the aperiodic loading of the driver.  Generally, the more resistive the aperiodic membrane and structure is, the higher the bass roll-off point (similar to making a sealed enclosure smaller).  Similarly, the less resistive the aperiodic loading, the lower the frequency response can extend, albeit at an increasing loss of damping and control of the cone movement (similar to a ported enclosure where the enclosure or port is too large and the design approaches free-air loading).  This is why those who open too many holes in the Grado drivers report loose bass or loss of control. The aperiodic variables can be juggled to tailor the response of a driver while other driver elements remain essentially the same.  This accounts for at least some of the variation between Grado models, especially in their bass response.  
 
Symphone's emphasis seems to be on offering an optimized driver that is yet as flexible as possible in its application.  Since the primary emphasis is on the driver itself, it is likely that they have not left much on the table in terms of driver design, except the drivers interaction with the cup enclosure itself.  In the same way that they have carefully managed the various design elements in the driver, it will interesting to see how they optimize the 3d design (for both the driver and cup assembly combined) which is soon to be released.  This approach simultaneously allows the opportunity to design a cup housing that is as inert as possible in its structural design, while at the same time exploring synergies between the driver and enclosure as a total assembly.  
 
Placement of the V6 in a wood (or aluminum) cup enclosure offers opportunity to tune the sonic signature of the total design by bringing to bear the sonic characteristics of the wood itself in combination with those of the driver.  The 3D approach offers opportunity to minimize coloration of the enclosure allowing the sonic signature of the driver itself to take precedence and approach the design as a total synergistic assembly.  
 
Exploring the differences between these two approaches is what attracted me to the idea of building two different and polar opposite V6 designs within what I had previously budgeted for one premium headphone.  Based on the reviews thus far of the V6 I think it is likely that I may well wind up with two different designs that may equal or exceed what I could have bought off-the-shelf for one headphone.
The learning and interaction with positive and creative culture here at Head-Fi alone has already proven to be worth it, and I haven't even built the V6's yet.  
gs1000.gif
 
 
Nov 6, 2015 at 8:06 PM Post #3,622 of 4,994
  *SNIP*
 
You will eventually have to bring down the region between 5 and 10 kHz a bit, and what I am using is this: A disk of less air-permeable cloth (~1cm diameter) is fixed on a thin felt piece. This thing will be placed directly in front of the driver and the cloth disk will just cover the driver dome, resulting in the desired treble reduction.
 

 
@stratocaster  a quick question....how are you affixing the treble reducer to the thin felt disc?
 
Nov 6, 2015 at 8:31 PM Post #3,623 of 4,994
  I am a latecomer to the party here.  After lurking for a while I decided to redirect my budget from of buying a set of HD600 or HD650, or Shure SRH1840's off-the-shelf and instead build a set of Magnum V6's.  Based on the research I had time to do, the heritage of the Magnum drivers, and Rhydon's reputation here, my gut told me to commit to the V6 route, even though they had just been introduced and there was little information available on them at the time.
 
As I have been ordering and accumulating the associated component parts, I have had more time to research my choice and the design of the driver itself.  I love good designs.  Especially elegantly simple designs, as these are often the hardest to achieve.  At first pass the V6 seemed to be just a very straightforward design with no frills.  As I have looked further, I have found out just how deceptively simple and sophisticated this design is.
 
At first glance it appeared that the driver just had a clear plastic grille over the diaphragm to protect it, similar to the stamped metal and fabric protective covers on most designs. I searched "acoustic lens technology" and discovered some of the relative advantages of a round perforated waveguide lens.  In actuality, this V6 grille also serves as an acoustic lens, or waveguide. The physical characteristics of the lens are carefully managed to shape the wavefront, and control dispersion which tends to beam on-axis as frequencies climb upward. Further, the cavity between the lens and the diaphragm has a resonance that can be managed to smooth the response curve, and mitigate peaks and nulls. The distance between the diaphragm and the lens, the spacing and size of the holes, their shape, the thickness of the lens are all variable that come into play.  So beyond just functioning as a protective grille, I have discovered that the V6 incorporates a carefully engineered acoustic lens.
 
In my experience with car audio, I observed how some installers would use aperiodic loading where possible.  Sealed, ported, and infinite baffle or free-air enclosures are common, but aperiodic loading is less commonly used.  Aperiodic loading generally models between ported and sealed enclosures and is thought of to some degree as a frequency-specific leaky sealed enclosure. Aperiodic loading can offer the advantages of smoothing the impedance and response curves of a driver, affects primarily bass frequencies, and the physically resistive aperiodic loading of a driver naturally damps signal overshoot and ringing.  The resistive material further tends to damp mid and high frequency reflections within the enclosure.  Use of this type of enclosure loading presumes that the front wave and back wave of the diaphragm are isolated from each other (which is somewhat inherent with headphones.)  In car audio an enclosure was fashioned just large enough to encompass the driver, then a double grille was attached between which acoustically resistive material (cloth, fiberglass, etc) could be layered.  The outermost grille was attached to allow easy removal so that the number of layers could be adjusted for optimum response.  
 
It occurred to me that a similar a loading could be used to tune bass frequencies in an open headphone cup and would be fairly easy to implement utilizing a slight modification of the grille structure commonly used in Grado variant designs.  By placing a double grille at the end of the cup, and adjusting the resistive material between the grilles to achieve the desired effect, the bass response could be optimized for a given driver/cup combination, while simultaneously mitigating internal mid and high frequency reflections within the cup
 
In actuality, correspondence with Rhydon revealed that aperiodic loading is already used in the design of the V6 driver (and Grado drivers as well).  It is elegantly incorporated within the driver itself. Essentially the back wave of the driver is controlled by a combination of the fabric membrane and holes spaced around the perimeter of the diaphragm.  Careful design in this area can significantly affect bass response, and overall frequency response.  
 
Grado mods that add holes in the fabric ring are altering the aperiodic loading of the driver.  Generally, the more resistive the aperiodic membrane and structure is, the higher the bass roll-off point (similar to making a sealed enclosure smaller).  Similarly, the less resistive the aperiodic loading, the lower the frequency response can extend, albeit at an increasing loss of damping and control of the cone movement (similar to a ported enclosure where the enclosure or port is too large and the design approaches free-air loading).  This is why those who open too many holes in the Grado drivers report loose bass or loss of control. The aperiodic variables can be juggled to tailor the response of a driver while other driver elements remain essentially the same.  This accounts for at least some of the variation between Grado models, especially in their bass response.  
 
Symphone's emphasis seems to be on offering an optimized driver that is yet as flexible as possible in its application.  Since the primary emphasis is on the driver itself, it is likely that they have not left much on the table in terms of driver design, except the drivers interaction with the cup enclosure itself.  In the same way that they have carefully managed the various design elements in the driver, it will interesting to see how they optimize the 3d design (for both the driver and cup assembly combined) which is soon to be released.  This approach simultaneously allows the opportunity to design a cup housing that is as inert as possible in its structural design, while at the same time exploring synergies between the driver and enclosure as a total assembly.  
 
Placement of the V6 in a wood (or aluminum) cup enclosure offers opportunity to tune the sonic signature of the total design by bringing to bear the sonic characteristics of the wood itself in combination with those of the driver.  The 3D approach offers opportunity to minimize coloration of the enclosure allowing the sonic signature of the driver itself to take precedence and approach the design as a total synergistic assembly.  
 
Exploring the differences between these two approaches is what attracted me to the idea of building two different and polar opposite V6 designs within what I had previously budgeted for one premium headphone.  Based on the reviews thus far of the V6 I think it is likely that I may well wind up with two different designs that may equal or exceed what I could have bought off-the-shelf for one headphone.
The learning and interaction with positive and creative culture here at Head-Fi alone has already proven to be worth it, and I haven't even built the V6's yet.  
gs1000.gif
 

 
that's fantastic stuff syn.
not sure i understood the finer points, but it is exciting to be a part of something where so much thought is being devoted to each individual component in order to, as you say, explore synergies.
i look forward to your musings on both your designs. i anticipate mine is still two or three weeks off. dependent on the 3d models just like you.
 
Nov 7, 2015 at 7:02 AM Post #3,625 of 4,994
Quick question: the only thing I'm missing for my next Magnum build is a headband insert.
I'm not using a donor headphone. Where have you got headband inserts from? - Grado declined to sell me one because of the agreement between them and their UK distributor, and they say they're not licensed to sell components, only carry out repairs.
 
Nov 7, 2015 at 9:04 AM Post #3,627 of 4,994
  Quick question: the only thing I'm missing for my next Magnum build is a headband insert.
I'm not using a donor headphone. Where have you got headband inserts from? - Grado declined to sell me one because of the agreement between them and their UK distributor, and they say they're not licensed to sell components, only carry out repairs.

(edited to correct post #)
 
Check post 3452 here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/576717/grado-modders-go-magnum/3452
 
Scan down to "Headband Assembly"
 
These are the options I am aware of.  Also the Sony MDR-V6 uses the same headband as the  MDR7502.
 
Nov 7, 2015 at 9:49 AM Post #3,628 of 4,994
   
These are the options I am aware of.  Also the Sony MDR-V6 uses the same headband as the  MDR7502.

Are you sure the MDR7502 will fit the stock Grado cup, might be too small.
 
Vivitar DJ Mixers do fit
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00NIZ88GC/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_2?pf_rd_p=1944687682&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00NIZAUK4&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0SCSVDSDB6MB4NDA1KMQ
 
Nov 7, 2015 at 9:49 AM Post #3,629 of 4,994
  Quick question: the only thing I'm missing for my next Magnum build is a headband insert.
I'm not using a donor headphone. Where have you got headband inserts from? - Grado declined to sell me one because of the agreement between them and their UK distributor, and they say they're not licensed to sell components, only carry out repairs.

 
  Check post 3621 here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/576717/grado-modders-go-magnum/3621
 
Scan down to "Headband Assembly"
 
These are the options I am aware of.  Also the Sony MDR-V6 uses the same headband as the  MDR7502.

i believe the post Synesis meant to send you to was post #3452
as post 3621 (while being very informative and well worth reading) is all about the drivers and not the headband assembly or frame* as i refer to it
 
* the part of the headphone consisting of the headband + rod blocks +rods + gimbals.
 
Nov 7, 2015 at 10:13 AM Post #3,630 of 4,994
from that post:
 
Headband assembly.
 
The least durable part of my SR80 was it gimbal assembly, a price paid for light weight. Worst case an SR60 could be purchased new or preferably used, but it would be nice to find a more durable headband assembly.  I saw posts early in the thread about an aluminum gimbal assembly, but I did not determine if it was still available.  A real leather headband is desirable for comfort, any sourcing or alternatives would be appreciated.  
 
fleasbaby: For headbands, I now turn my cups slightly narrower than the norm to use them in the Sony MDR7502 headband. Its lightweight, durable and relatively cheaper to obtain. You also don't need to invest in a headband pad for them.
 
joeq70: Headband --Many people use the Sony headband that fleasbaby referenced above, but if you want a Grado headband, I recommend going to www.headphile.com and snagging deal #6, option #2. It is a nice leather headband with rod locks. I got one for my last build and thought it was the nicest overall headband I've used yet.
 
7keys: I'm still looking for a Sony 7506 headband.  Trew audio wants $19 for US customers and $44 for Canadian customers. http://www.trewaudio.com/store/Sony-7506-Replacement-Headband-and-Cups.html
 
fleasbaby: Headbands, I use the MDR7502 one. It's light, good looking, and indestructible. I don't need to buy a leather pad for it. I can get it pretty cheaply by buying a used pair on eBay. It also has a narrower yoke though, so I turn my cups accordingly. Not everyone has this luxury.
 
Synesis: Leather headband upgrades available at http://turbulentlabs.com/products/view-all/
Installation video for leather headband: http://turbulentlabs.com/film/view/
 
Synesis:  Helpful thread on making your own headband, also contains helpful info on headbands: http://www.head-fi.org/t/237221/tutorial-padded-leather-headband-for-grados-with-pics
 
Synesis: Sony MDR-V6 and Sony MDR-7506 use the same headband assembly for potential donors.
 
 
 

so either the Sony headbands work or Grado ones...
 

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