Woo Audio Amp Owner Unite
Jul 7, 2011 at 9:05 PM Post #11,506 of 42,298


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She got mad at me for spending too much money on frivolous vacuum tubes for my Woo Audio amps so I bought her a bouquet of flowers to bring peace and harmony to the household and to also beautify the living room and she got mad at me again. Go figure!
 


It's a good thing delicate green tea is meant to be prepared; consumed warm and not hot - I spilled some onto my thigh after seeing this post!  
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Jul 7, 2011 at 9:58 PM Post #11,507 of 42,298
Let me know what you think of the BDP-1 and DAC as I am evaluating a pair now and would love to compare notes.
 
 


Will do. I just wrapped up my WA2/WA22 comparisons (with my LCD-2, HD800s, T1s, and Ed. 8s). I am now moving on to comparing the DACs.

Let's us know how did it go!!!! You must be bummed as you would probably have to start your journey of hunting tubes once more.... The only down side i felt for W22 >.< Damn though 6SN7 are expensive and rare.... Try your luck on Ebay, I got my EML 5u4G for less than $150... 
 


Good thing the WA2 and WA22 share the same power tubes. I've got 2 pairs of 7236s (Tung-Sol x2 and Sylvania x2) and 1 pair of Tung-Sol 5998s. :smile: I find rectifier tubes have the least impact on SQ....first power, then driver and finally rectifier tubes. I do have a NOS Sylvania 5U4G and a pair of 6SN7s coming in next week. This week I did buy a pair of Electro-Harmonix Gold 6SN7s and a very good step up from the stock RCAs. I was always impressed with their 12AX7 tube and they have not disappointed. Of the new issue tubes, I am a big fan of EH and Gold Lions. They really hold their own next to some of the NOS tubes. I also picked up a 1950s winged "C" SED 5U4G. So far the new driver and rectifier tubes have yielded positive results over the stock tubes.
 
Jul 7, 2011 at 11:35 PM Post #11,508 of 42,298


Quote:

Quote:
 
She got mad at me for spending too much money on frivolous vacuum tubes for my Woo Audio amps so I bought her a bouquet of flowers to bring peace and harmony to the household and to also beautify the living room and she got mad at me again. Go figure!
 



ROTFL!
 
 
Jul 8, 2011 at 12:14 AM Post #11,509 of 42,298


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This is me, only the exact opposite.  I've struggled for years now over why a bit perfect ripped file on the PC doesn't sound the same as spinning the actual CD, because in my case the result always sounds worse.  This came up just recently again, after building my new PC.  The most bizarre part is that the sound card didn't change, I re-used it from the old system...... yet the sound quality is distinctly different than before with the exact same files, settings, and audio hardware.  The only thing that changed was going from an XP to a Win7 driver for that soundcard.  If the ones and zeros are the same ones on the disc, it should sound the same if no re-sampling is present (and there isn't since I am using ASIO), but it never does and I've never found a satisfying explanation why.  The PC playback always sounds more hard-edged and shouty, as though there is less dynamic headroom.
 


I had my doubts... then I took steps... one by one... and it mattered. Audio inside the computer environment is challenging to say the least. I'm not at all surprised the CD sounded different. "Ones and zeros" being the same only tells part of the story. Not all tweaks and adjustments cost money - you could extract so much more from your system. And those same bits will sound different.  
 
 
Jul 8, 2011 at 1:56 AM Post #11,511 of 42,298
 

I suggest that you look at the HE-500, the other HiFiMAN cans aren't efficient enough for any of the Woo amps except the WA5/LE.
 


I'm quite pleased with the 5LE from the 6SE, they are actually not as hungry as the 6. That said, I'd have to agree that with the 500 available now it's probably a better choice to consider.

 
Jul 8, 2011 at 2:08 AM Post #11,512 of 42,298
Agreed, I used to have an HE-5 and they were definitely borderline out of my WA22 with the 2-watt tubes; the HE-6 was more of a fail.
 
Jul 8, 2011 at 9:42 AM Post #11,513 of 42,298

Ah, a computer and information science point here: WAV does not have more information than ALAC or FLAC. It occupies more bits, but that's because the density of the information is lower. If you ignore the additional information that an ALAC or FLAC has, purely because the definition of the container (file) for the data allows for tags, the information (music) content of a WAV, ALAC and FLAC is identical. The proof is that you can convert endlessly between all three formats, and the bits representing the music in each of the three formats won't change. No information is lost.
 
You may ask yourself: how can the files always be smaller and still have the same information? The answer is that they can't. There is NO lossless compression method that can take any arbitrary input file and always create a smaller file. Lossy compression? Sure. Lossless? No way. It takes 5 minutes to prove this with simple math on a whiteboard. The 5-second version is that there are fewer possible files if they're smaller (there are 2 to the power n possible files of n binary bits size), so the decompressor wouldn't know which of the many larger files is the right one.
 
FLAC and ALAC work because they're dealing with inherently inefficient data representation in WAV (or AIFF....same thing, different clothes). If you took a set of random bits and threw them at FLAC or ALAC, they'd fail, or "compress" the file to one that's larger than the original. Most compression algorithms are smart enough to declare defeat and just give you back the original file.
 
An an aside, when I was a venture capitalist (halcyon days), I saw a number of companies promising lossless compression of all arbitrary files. One even claimed that you could use their technology to compress a 600MB CD to 60KB, then again to 6 bytes, and then reverse the process losslessly; THAT was an uncomfortable meeting. I turned them all down, because they were wrong, sadly misguided, nuts, or worse. Anyone with college-level information science can do the 5 minute proof mentioned above. And, no, this isn't like the people who "proved" that you can't fly faster than sound; the math on compression is much more solid than that: Claude Shannon, one of the fathers of information theory, was a very smart dude.
 
Lossy compression has its place. The HD movie you watch on your TV is missing over 99% of the bits in the data stream. If you've worked in compression, you can see the compression artifacts (and hence working in compression spoils your enjoyment of TV forever), but it's amazing how good it looks. JPEG performs similar, although less severe, miracles on pictures. Most MP3s throw away 90% of the information, but still sound ok to many people.
 
All the above assumes that the FLAC/ALAC software you're using isn't buggy and doesn't destroy your data. A few tests of compress/decompress and comparing against the original should convince you.
 
Is that enough talk to talk you out of WAV and embrace the joys of tagged files, Mike? And, to repeat a prior post: if WAVs make you more comfortable, and sound better to you, go for it. I'm not snickering behind your back. There are enough unknown variables in how we perceive sound, both psychological and physiological, to make your perceptions real and something that I honor and respect. You can always tag the files with "sidecar" files (same name, different extension) or with music software that tracks all of this in a database, like J River. It's safer and easier to manage if the tags are in the files, but some software doesn't keep all of the tags in the files. For example, iTunes doesn't keep ratings or last played date in the files. You can torture it into doing so with scripts and using/abusing other tag fields, but it's not convenient. As always, no perfect answer, and lots of tradeoffs....
 
Quote:
 

You are a BAD man, Grokit
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.  Actually, an iPad is in my future, but really way down the road.  It does look purdy though.
 
Right now it's between FLAC & WAV.  I'm learning about what tags are and what their value brings and how each format stores tags and how other applications relate to the formats' storage.  Basically, I'm looking for a good reason to get talked out of WAV which is my default because it has more information and that's just me.  However, as I learn more, tagging seems to be important down the road, and since sonically FLAC = WAV, the more flexible format seems the way to go.
 
 



 
 
Jul 8, 2011 at 9:56 AM Post #11,514 of 42,298
If you're using the analog outputs of your sound card, I'd expect it to sound different in a new PC: different electrical noise. A PC is a bad place to have analog stuff going on; it's really electrically noisy inside the Faraday cage that most PCs surround themselves with. If you're using the digital outputs, I would also expect drivers and overall PC hardware to have an effect, especially on timing. The bits are almost certainly the same, but they may be arriving on a different schedule. This isn't computeraudiophile (yet), but there's real electrical science here to explain the issues, versus, ahem, subspace manifold verteron particle interference
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.
 
A well-clocked and isolated USB DAC, perhaps of the asynchronous variety, should sound really damn good. It's largely a question then, I think, of the difference between your USB DAC and the DAC that lives inside or next to your CD transport. It's SO hard to do an A/B comparison. I've tried it with my W4S DAC-2, comparing the same CD played from a Theta David II (which can tolerably claim to deliver the right bit on the right schedule) through the coax PCM input and a ripped version playing from Pure Music through the USB input. There's no obvious difference to me, but there certainly might be to others. Even level matching accurately is a challenge, and we all know that louder often sounds better. Harmless fun to try all this out though, isn't it?


Quote:
This is me, only the exact opposite.  I've struggled for years now over why a bit perfect ripped file on the PC doesn't sound the same as spinning the actual CD, because in my case the result always sounds worse.  This came up just recently again, after building my new PC.  The most bizarre part is that the sound card didn't change, I re-used it from the old system...... yet the sound quality is distinctly different than before with the exact same files, settings, and audio hardware.  The only thing that changed was going from an XP to a Win7 driver for that soundcard.  If the ones and zeros are the same ones on the disc, it should sound the same if no re-sampling is present (and there isn't since I am using ASIO), but it never does and I've never found a satisfying explanation why.  The PC playback always sounds more hard-edged and shouty, as though there is less dynamic headroom.
 



 
 
Jul 8, 2011 at 10:58 AM Post #11,515 of 42,298


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Just send them to me, I'l make works of art out of them. thats way better than a landfill.
 
 


If you are serious, I have a whole box for you.
 
 
Jul 8, 2011 at 11:27 AM Post #11,516 of 42,298


Quote:
Ah, a computer and information science point here:
*****
As always, no perfect answer, and lots of tradeoffs....
 

Thank you very much, FlyingBear. I have copied your posts, pasted it in Word, sent it to my work Samsung laser printer, printed it, and will read it and digest it during my lunch break. Yum!
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And you're right: It is harmless fun to try all this out, yes it is.
 
 
Jul 8, 2011 at 12:53 PM Post #11,517 of 42,298


Quote:
Ah, a computer and information science point here: WAV does not have more information than ALAC or FLAC.

 
Great post in it's entirety, I would just nit-pick this single point: "WAV does not have more audio information than ALAC or FLAC."  
 
Quote:
subspace manifold verteron particle interference
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Can I have fries with that?
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Jul 8, 2011 at 3:48 PM Post #11,519 of 42,298

Life would hardly be worth living without a good nit-pick, but I have to nit-pick you back, so that, well, you can do the same
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FLAC and ALAC can have more information than WAV, because the file format supports sections that contain all sorts of metadata/tags. But your nit-pick suggests that WAV may have more non-audio information than ALAC or FLAC (if I read you correctly) and I don't think that's correct. ALL of the information in a WAV exists in a FLAC or ALAC, because the compress-decompress cycle restores the WAV perfectly, with no bits changed. Or am I missing something? Either way, you can't beat a good nit-pick on a hot Lausanne night (for that is where I am tonight).
 
Best regards....
Quote:
Great post in it's entirety, I would just nit-pick this single point: "WAV does not have more audio information than ALAC or FLAC."
 



 
 
Jul 8, 2011 at 4:13 PM Post #11,520 of 42,298
From how I understand it, the way that FLAC and ALAC cut the storage requirements in half from that of AIFF and WAV files without compressing the music is by getting rid of all of the non-audio information during the conversion process. AIFF and WAV let the computer read the audio data more efficiently, but FLAC and ALAC re-code that data to use much less storage space.
 

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