[MIKELAP]

 

For those owners of WA22 is running balanced a worthy investment knowing i will need at least a balanced DAC not shure about HP cables from what i've  read .Thanks

I have a balanced DAC (Oppo HA-1) and unbalanced (Arcam irDAC) and run the WA22 both ways. I don't think it makes one bit of difference between unbalanced and balanced. I think the most important thing is to get a DAC with the right sound signature. For me the unbalanced DAC's sound signature was many levels better.

I do use the balanced headphone connection for two reasons. First stronger connection and two if I use SS (Oppo HA-1) there s a documented power gain. I have run a test between balanced and 1/4 inch connection and to my ears I could not pick up a quality difference. However others have said there is.

Thanks will continue reading on the subject ,if anybody else would have an opinion on running the WA22 balanced being worth the expense or not feel free .Thanks

 

[joseph69]

  Thanks will continue reading on the subject ,if anybody else would have an opinion on running the WA22 balanced being worth the expense or not feel free .Thanks

I also considered this at one point myself…so after doing some reading I came to understand that balanced is used mainly for long lenght in a studios. Also I have read that there was no difference in sound quality compared to SE. Whatever the case may be, or what others may hear, I decided against going balanced, as I'm perfectly fine with my SE connection and my current equipment.
This is just what my research has lead me to believe…I'm in no way saying there is no difference in sound because I have never heard/experience a balanced connection.

 

[Badas]

I also considered this at one point myself…so after doing some reading I came to understand that balanced is used mainly for long lenght in a studios. Also I have read that there was no difference in sound quality compared to SE. Whatever the case may be, or what others may hear, I decided against going balanced, as I'm perfectly fine with my SE connection and my current equipment.
This is just what my research has lead me to believe…I'm in no way saying there is no difference in sound because I have never heard/experience a balanced connection.

Exacta mondo. It is bogus. All the Oppo fanboys were bleating on about the sound quality gain on using balanced so I tested their claims. There is a power gain using the Oppo in balanced (a lot) however when I volume level matched I could not pick up a quality gain. I responded in the thread and said the volume gain was making you all think there was a quality gain. I got slammed. Then a Oppo engineer posted and said a quality gain was just not possible.
I did the same test on my WA22 with the exact same impression. No quality gain.
Balanced is for very very long cable runs. We just do not use that in the headphone game. I'm of the opinion if you have balanced gear then use it. If you don't then don't worry about it. You're not missing anything.

 

[joseph69]

 Then a Oppo engineer posted and said a quality gain was just not possible.

I did the same test on my WA22 with the exact same impression. No quality gain.
Balanced is for very very long cable runs. We just do not use that in the headphone game. I'm of the opinion if you have balanced gear then use it. If you don't then don't worry about it. You're not missing anything.

This must be the article that I read…I do remember reading quality gain was just not possible.
And I do agree, if you have it, use it, if not, don't bother.

 

[Kimakaze]

  For those owners of WA22 is running balanced a worthy investment knowing i will need at least a balanced DAC not shure about HP cables from what i've  read .Thanks

 
I think this post from Ardilla says it all, at least from Jack's point of view.
 

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

- Balanced in Yes
- Single Ended or Balanced output the same

 
ORIGINAL POST http://www.head-fi.org/t/634551/woo-wa22-balanced-vs-unbalanced-input#post_8838857
 

1. [img]http://cdn.head-fi.org/c/ce/100x100px-LS-ced77c57_HeadFiAvatar.png[/img]

1. ardilla
2. 

 
WA22 - balanced or not - a never ending story..... 
 
Here is what Jack Wu had to say about it:
 

The WA22 is a fully balanced amp, see diagram below.
 

 
 
The question here is that this amp is not fully balanced because the "amp with a single ended output stage directly connected to the XLR connectors.” It is not true. In an Output Transformer coupled design, the primary and secondary coils are isolated. Output stage and input stage are not connected and thus no cross-talk whatsoever can happen.
 
On the ¼” output, both channels have independent paths, see the black and red wires.  If this wiring scheme applies to a Output Transformer Less design, the circuit will become single-ended. See the second diagram in #17, the v- would have to be a common wire to other channel.  One must be carefull not to take reference from the wrong context to avoid all the misunderstanding.
 
Also, no phase splitter is needed because the source is XLR (balanced). As for the RCA input, only ½ of the input is used and the efficiency is roughly dropped 50%. In other words, the RCA input will not take advantage of this design. You must use a balanced source to get the best out of the WA22.
 
Hope that clarifies.
 
-Jack
 

Source:    http://www.head-fi.org/t/456258/wa22-internal-pictures/30#post_7258747
 
 
 
 
 
Also - from Jack Wu on email: 

The WA22 is designed as a fully balanced amp from input to output. The amp is accepting a balanced input to work as designed. When RCA input is used, the input is essentially half of balanced input; thus the amp will lose about half the efficiency. The RCA input will work if the amp has a single-ended to balanced conversion built-in. For design simplicity, the WA22 accepts only balanced input.
 
Regarding to the outputs, all sockets delivery similar performance. The reason for multiple outputs are for people with different cable needs.
 

Edited by ardilla - 5/5/13 at 3:23pm

 

[isquirrel]

Hey Tony,
 
Got your Elrog's yet?
 
Matt got his this week, been waiting on him to chime in with some impressions

 

[TonyNewman]

  Hey Tony,
 
Got your Elrog's yet?
 
Matt got his this week, been waiting on him to chime in with some impressions

 
Not yet. My local supplier (audio crack dealer) is dealing direct with the folks in Deutchland. Communication is a little erratic

 
I'm in no rush - having a lot of fun playing with my tubeset in the WA5 now that it has been repaired. No doubt the ER300Bs will arrive suddenly in a week or two - a pleasant surprise when it happens.
 
How are the ER300Bs tonality-wise? My understanding is that they are slightly warm of neutral - does that sound about right?

 

[isquirrel]

Perhaps a little warmer, however they do impart a very nice sense of realism and good tonality. I would describe them as being more forwards in their presentation, Matt has reported he particularly enjoys them with his genre of music.

 

[Fririce0003]

Well then I suppose I should give my impressions on the Elrog and Takatsuki tubes this far.
I'll start off by saying, both these tubes are in a league of their own, they don't do anything wrong. It's more a case of personal preference and what they do, more right, for you.
So far I've got 86 hours on the Takatsuki's, 300b's, 274b's and TSRP. 10 hours on the Elrogs, Mullard Metal Bases and a different set of TSRP's. Not quite as much as I hoped for, but works ramped up again, back to doing weekends and 10 hour days :/
Starting with the Elrog's, they're a nice clean sounding tube, on the warmer side of neutral but not too far off. Compared to the Takatsuki's they're a bit more forward in presentation, the leading edge of the notes are quicker and note decay isn't as long. The frequency response is tilted slightly in favour of the upper treble and highs, not a shrill or overly bright tube. But the slight skew to the Elrog does make it seem like details are more present. Bass is extended, a little bit on the lighter side but it still has presence. Some of the things that I've found the Elrog to do especially well is electric guitars, especially distortion on them. To do that right you need an amp that's quick and clean, so it's purely from the recording and guitar, not decay stacking ontop of itself. Now the Elrog does that right it presents nice clean distortion, heavy guitar rifts sound aggressive and grutal without loosing any technical prowess.
Another thing they do well is electronic music, sure you don't get as much bass as the Takatsuki of SERP but the speed and clarity renders all of the electronic effects perfectly.
So onto the Takatsuki, the words that come to mind when listening to them are; rich, euphonic, weighty, musical and sophisticated. Compare to the Elrog the soundstage is widened and deepened giving the music a grand scale to it. The bass is extended, weighty, quick and impactful. Speed isn't far behind the Elrog, it may even be on par, the Euphony and richness of the tube make it a bit hard to compare though. Decay on notes is longer, notes trail off into the background wonderfully, female vocals, jazz, classical or instrumental, this tube absolutely shines. It's incredibly musical and involving. Now I said it seemed like the Elrog drew more detail, the fact of the matter is the Takatsuki draws out more actual detail and dynamics, but the larger soundstage and euphonic voicing it leads to a more musically involving listen, but if you focus on the details things you've never heard in the mix before jump out at you.
I'm not really sure how I'd describe the tonal balance, it's all done well, bass is the fullest and weightiest I've heard, mids are lush and full, highs are crisp and extended. It doesn't leave me, personally, wanting anything more musically.
While the Elrog does have an edge rendering guitars and textures due to a lack of decay and euphony plus it's more immediate voicing, the Takatsuki's hold up fine for rock, metal and electronic. It's just presented in a different way, rock and metal, for guitar solos the euphony adds another layer of depth to the sound and drums have more impact. For electronic, my god the bass, not just quantity but quality, weighty, fast and textured. The Takatsuki renders bass better than the elrog.
Well for me overall I prefer the Takatsuki, the Elrog are still an impressive tube and will continue seeing use, but I feel myself gravitating to the Tak's more often than not.
Keep in mind I've still got a lot of burn in to do on each set of tubes so things could change later down the track. Also of note I'm using the tubes in a 234 with abyss headphones. The music I listen to is a bit of everything, classical, jazz, instrumental, female vocal, rock, metal, electronic and J-Pop, really what every I feel like at the time.
Hope that read was entertaining and informative enough, and as always feel free to ask me any questions you may have

 

[isquirrel]

Agree with Matt's finding's above, my Tak have +300 hours on them and the Elrog's + 120 hours - the above scenario's don't change that much. I have been wondering with Matt whether a different rectifier would help with the Elrog's. I actually prefer them with the Tak 274B.
 
But then I think its the best rectifier I have heard including the WE. 

 

[daverich4]

Thanks will continue reading on the subject ,if anybody else would have an opinion on running the WA22 balanced being worth the expense or not feel free .Thanks

I think part of the answer depends on whether you're buying a new WA22 or a used one. I'm under the impression that the new ones produce the same output whether you're using the balanced or single ended inputs. However, my three year old WA22 produces approximately HALF the output when fed with a single ended source. No problem if your headphones can be driven to a volume that you're happy with but mine won't drive my HD800's from a single ended input without the volume all the way around. For me it's balanced inputs only. YMMV.

 

[Badas]

I think part of the answer depends on whether you're buying a new WA22 or a used one. I'm under the impression that the new ones produce the same output whether you're using the balanced or single ended inputs. However, my three year old WA22 produces approximately HALF the output when fed with a single ended source. No problem if your headphones can be driven to a volume that you're happy with but mine won't drive my HD800's from a single ended input without the volume all the way around. For me it's balanced inputs only. YMMV.

Yeah. I heard there had been a minor redesign to allow the single end to operate at the same volume level as the balanced. Mine is six months old and I can confirm that they are at the same volume. No difference at all.

 

[MIKELAP]

 

Thanks will continue reading on the subject ,if anybody else would have an opinion on running the WA22 balanced being worth the expense or not feel free .Thanks

I think part of the answer depends on whether you're buying a new WA22 or a used one. I'm under the impression that the new ones produce the same output whether you're using the balanced or single ended inputs. However, my three year old WA22 produces approximately HALF the output when fed with a single ended source. No problem if your headphones can be driven to a volume that you're happy with but mine won't drive my HD800's from a single ended input without the volume all the way around. For me it's balanced inputs only. YMMV.

My amp is 4 years and i use the Senns HD800 with it loud for me is about 1 and 2 o'clock . i read about the phase splitter being in recent amps (2014) it seems Woo charges $250.00 to upgrade for older amps 

 

[daverich4]

My amp is 4 years and i use the Senns HD800 with it loud for me is about 1 and 2 o'clock . i read about the phase splitter being in recent amps (2014) it seems Woo charges $250.00 to upgrade for older amps 

Mine typically would be in about the same place as long as I'm driving the WA22 with the balanced inputs. If I try to drive my HD800's with the single ended inputs the volume ends up being almost all the way around with little room for adjustment if the music is recorded down in level a little. In any event, for my use, it's a moot point as both my Transporter and DAC have balanced outs.

 

[MIKELAP]

Montreal Audio show going on this weekend nice gear at the Woo Audio room