[isquirrel]

I will go on to say the that when I sat down and did the math on the inevitable upgrade cycle, having to sell gear at at a loss and then the knowledge that I was buying something that I knew I would upgrade at some time did not make economic or sane reasoning to me. 
 
This is no better explanation of this than a quote from Chris Sommovigo in this review of the 234's http://thehighfidelityreport.com/dream-machine/
 
"One of the questions that invariably arises in explorations of price and value is the one that asks how much money the end-user will eventually lose over a lifetime of constant upgrading and trading-in, etc. If we’re frank with ourselves, the sum can oftentimes get scary. The secondary market has become the primary market, it seems, with the neurotic masses looking to minimize their risks by purchasing used gear at less-than 50% original retail. Risks of what? They already know, ahead of time, that they’re going to sell the thing that they’re about to buy. And so, the abusive cycle of constant “upgrading” takes hold (that, in itself, is a psychological oddity to me, this idea of being pre-dissatisfied, but that’s a subject for another discussion). Over the years, a  serious amount of money is invariably lost in this crazy merry-go-round. Woo’s products in general aren’t fit for that kind of trade-around (you hardly find them for sale on the second-hand market), and this is especially true of the 234 mono blocs."
 
Tony has raised an a very good point, if I do the math on the valves (all of them) and the possible future valve upgrades then for sure you could spend a great deal on an SS amp and still be better off. Will it have that tube sound that I personally prefer - no - will it empty my wallet - yes.
 
Its our personal choices that we make on this journey that define the outcome we are ultimately in a quest for and that's a very personal matter. Thank goodness we don't all like the same thing - life would be very boring indeed!

 

[longbowbbs]

  Quote:Quote:

A few calisthenics or sometimes a nice sweater work for me....

I could do 100 push-ups and sit-ups in five minutes, but getting a comfy cashmere sweater is a lot easier at my age.

I agree with that choice!

 

[isquirrel]

  Anyone that has both the Takatsuki 300B's and the Elrogs, I for one am eager for any further comparisons/updates--my TA300B's are just reaching the 50-60 hour stage and I'm really liking what I'm hearing (my 'backups' are the SERP's, so no slouches in their own right).  At some point I know I will want to add the Elrogs to my stash (although the wallet has to recover first!).
 
Thanks,
 
Randy

I have a quiet day and both sets of tubes are fully run in, so I will compare my notes and sit down and do a write up of both tubes.

 

[TonyNewman]

....  
Tony has raised an a very good point, if I do the math on the valves (all of them) and the possible future valve upgrades then for sure you could spend a great deal on an SS amp and still be better off. Will it have that tube sound that I personally prefer - no - will it empty my wallet - yes.
 
Its our personal choices that we make on this journey that define the outcome we are ultimately in a quest for and that's a very personal matter. Thank goodness we don't all like the same thing - life would be very boring indeed!

 
That's the dilemma I am struggling with.
 
Thinking I might pass on the Elrogs and stick with the tube goodness I already have for occasional enjoyment and use my SS gear for everyday listening. It is just way more practical, and I am finding the SQ (from floor standers and headphones) very good indeed.
 
You can get slightly warm-of-neutral sounding SS gear that is a lovely listening experience - which is what I have. That 'tube magic' isn't there, but I think that dollar-for-dollar SS beats tube in just about every other sonic measure i.e. SS is closer to the source sound than tube - but it is what tubes do with the 2nd order distortion, on vocals in particular, that makes them addictive. That lovely visceral smoothness and fullness that it adds. That is just a wonderful sound.

 

[isquirrel]

   
March 1957.  I've had metal base GZ 34s (we really need a clever nickname for this tube) in the past for my WA6 (now sold)-- It was by far my favorite rectifier in that amp and the tube sold for more than I paid for it.
 
Getting a matched pair for the WA5LE took forever, and when I first put them in the amp with the Sylvania drivers I wasn't exactly impressed.  Good, but it wasn't as nice as the 596.  The RCA driver at least closes the gap.  Much better pairing for the 34, and I'm not sure which tube I like better at the moment.

Mine are 1957 Holland production as well. 
 
Sorry if I harp about these however I cannot recommend the 6SN7 TS RP black glass highly enough, they are the foundation of the tube sound in my system, I can live without Elrog's, T 300B's if I had to, but the TS are a game changer. That's why I buy every good pair I can find. They last maybe 10,000 hours and I have had some fail. I have tried every other 6SN7 and nothing comes remotely close to these except the early WW2 era RCA grey glass with clipped ears. The RCA's are very variable, some are gold others are as worthless as dust. Generally the early production one's are good. Though the best are still only 75% of the TS RP's
 
Some people like the Red Base 5692, true its built like a tank, but its not as good as the Grey Glass WW2 era tubes.

 

[TonyNewman]

 
Mine are 1957 Holland production as well. 
 
Sorry if I harp about these however I cannot recommend the 6SN7 TS RP black glass highly enough, they are the foundation of the tube sound in my system, I can live without Elrog's, T 300B's if I had to, but the TS are a game changer. That's why I buy every good pair I can find. They last maybe 10,000 hours and I have had some fail. I have tried every other 6SN7 and nothing comes remotely close to these except the early WW2 era RCA grey glass with clipped ears. The RCA's are very variable, some are gold others are as worthless as dust. Generally the early production one's are good. Though the best are still only 75% of the TS RP's
 
Some people like the Red Base 5692, true its built like a tank, but its not as good as the Grey Glass WW2 era tubes.

 
Have you tried any 6F8Gs? I have bought a bunch of 6F8Gs to try as soon as my adapters turn up.
 
I have been told that some of the 6F8Gs, such as the National Union, are close in performance to the 6SN7 TSRPs at a fraction of the cost.

 

[Justin_Time]

 
 

This picture of the Audio Research amp is...breathtaking!

 

[longbowbbs]

 

 
 

This picture of the Audio Research amp is...breathtaking!

So does that generator power the whole house or just one floor? 

 

[Krutsch]

  A few calisthenics or sometimes a nice sweater work for me....

 
 

I switch my amp on and by the time I've made some coffee the WA6 is ready to go. The second hour seems to sound better for some reason though.
I could do 100 push-ups and sit-ups in five minutes, but getting a comfy cashmere sweater is a lot easier at my age.

 
Back in my US Army Ranger days, I could you join you for that, but today I would be lucky to do 10 push-ups in five minutes (well, lucky to 10 in any amount of time). Too many years of Emacs and Adobe Illustrator & Photoshop, sitting in an aeron chair 

 
I'll stick with making coffee (am) or mixing a martini (pm) as my warm-up exercise.

 

[Krutsch]

 
I switch on and sometimes listen to the tubes heating up to make sure there are no problems with zero volume, I can hear the thinking of the plates as they slowly warm. That takes apparel 10 mins for all of the macro noises to disappear and for silence. I then know I have no issues.
 
As you can tell I have had more than my fair share of tube drama's. I go make some coffee, have my beloved morning smoke and then come back and have a listen.
 
An old timer friend who used to be in the tube manufacturing industry told this is how he treats his tubes. With respect, as he says some of my tubes are nearly 90 years old. You wouldn't chert in your car and give it full rev's until the oil is warmed through, that's how I treat my tubes. I don't run my tubes for more than 4-5 hours as a general rule.
 
<snip, snip>
 
Trouble is I like to tinker and tune the sound and SS prohibits this.
 

 
Great post, Simon, as always - very informative. I've been lucky to not have had any tube drama (yet, I'm a noobie at the tube game), but I'm sure it's coming.
 
And, like you, part of the juice for me is the tinkering and tube rolling is as fun as it gets. While I am hovering at a few orders of magni-tube below your collection, I still have collected a lot of glass for the WA3 / WA2 (the Siemens CCa tubes arrived today):
 

 
 
...so Tony's point is a very valid one. I am afraid to add it all up ($$$); many were inexpensive, but some were not, and I suspect I could be rockin' a serious SS amp for the all-in cost. But what's the fun in that... and kidding aside, I am really enamored with the tube sound, for all of its pros and cons. I feel like I've discovered a new dimension to music listening and I don't want to go back. I will sit at my desk and listen for 4-6 hours straight 'til 3am, something I've not done since I was a kid.
 
My daughter looked at my tube cabinet, looked at my amp and said: "...I don't get it, your headphone amp only needs three tubes, which are in there now; what are all of those other ones for?"
 
I don't really have an answer that doesn't sound like something from an addict. 

 

[Stax-i-nox]

LOL!  

 

[Silent One]

Silent notes made audible...and visible.
 
:  :  Warm-up  :  :   Nearly all of my listening sessions are reserved. Knowing start times in advance gives me the luxury of firing up the system and let it run long before I expect to be seated. Although my focus is usually on tube gear during this period, the solid state amp benefits as well when on deck. It's customary for me to have two to four hour warm-ups, while I wrap things up, so as to not be interrupted later in-session.
 
:  :  Tube versus Solid State  :  :    I love the presentation both amps return. Both are indeed special to my ears and I enjoy what I hear...always. That said, my preference between the two particular models I have is the glass hands-down over the chips! This is less about tube versus solid state in general, and everything to do with the particular models I have.
 
It so happens that my tube mono blocks can do everything the big solid state amp can, while maintaining that tube magic. My monos are fast, detailed, refined, immediate and so on, not a slow and syrupy tube offering. It's got Bass and can hit! The Siemens F2a glass is a wonderful output tube that got its start in German Cinema much in the same way the WE300B emerged. This tube can swing.
 
- Shindo Laboratory F2a Sinhonia monaural amps
- Sansui G-22000
 
The Sansui receiver (dual mono construction) is no slouch either. The top engineers behind Sansui's TOTL amps/receivers were recruited over to Hashimoto-Japan, the makers of fine Output Transformers. 

 

[longbowbbs]

One of the things about SS VS tubes is you can leave it on all the time. My new Moon Neo 430HA barely gets warm. I have to make sure my Cary is turned off before I head out. A couple of times it ended up on for a couple days. Hate to waste the tube life that way!

 

[Silent One]

Yeah, tube life is something that 'neaked past me...

 

[reeltime]

 
Mine are 1957 Holland production as well. 
 
Sorry if I harp about these however I cannot recommend the 6SN7 TS RP black glass highly enough, they are the foundation of the tube sound in my system, I can live without Elrog's, T 300B's if I had to, but the TS are a game changer. That's why I buy every good pair I can find. They last maybe 10,000 hours and I have had some fail. I have tried every other 6SN7 and nothing comes remotely close to these except the early WW2 era RCA grey glass with clipped ears. The RCA's are very variable, some are gold others are as worthless as dust. Generally the early production one's are good. Though the best are still only 75% of the TS RP's
 
Some people like the Red Base 5692, true its built like a tank, but its not as good as the Grey Glass WW2 era tubes.

I got a pair of 1948 RCAs.  I paid a little extra, around $90, but from what I've read (and now heard) it was worth the added cost.  
 
If I can find the Tung Sol, I'll pick up a pair to audition (nothing on eBay at the moment).  Fortunately the 6SN7 doesn't run as expensive as some of the other tubes!
 
I just listed all of my EML glass on eBay.