Woo Audio Amp Owner Unite
Jan 26, 2015 at 8:23 PM Post #32,446 of 42,298
  Ok great i was afraid i insulted you or something  that's the problem sometimes words dont always convey true meaning or emotions.
beerchug.gif
 

Can't tell you how many times I took messages the wrong way (on this forum) and afterwards felt like a moron! 
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So now if I'm unsure if someone is directing something negative/sarcastic toward my post, I leave it at that…its better that way for me.
 
Jan 26, 2015 at 11:16 PM Post #32,447 of 42,298
More fun with the Tung-Sol 7N7s in the WA6. I have swapped out the Brimar for the PSvane WE274B rectifier - a much darker tube with almost the same performance as the Brimar - and the result is rather good. Some residual harshness in the 7N7s, but not many hours on them.
 
This is very promising indeed. I might have to invest in some 7N7->6SN7 adapters
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Jan 27, 2015 at 12:12 AM Post #32,448 of 42,298
  I found the only real solution to decent indoor photography was a DLSR. You do have $1000 burning a hole in your pocket I hope?

 
Here's a camera primer-- don't read this if you could care less about taking photos. (Now you've been warned).  You don’t need a fancy camera to take a quality amp photo.  In fact, you have a perfect camera right in your pocket.
 

 
 
SIMPLE SOLUTION:  Use your iPhone! (Photo above taken with an iPhone 6+)
You can take a terrific amplifier photo with an iPhone.  However— you also want to use a camera app like 645 Pro, which allows full access to all of the camera’s settings.  You also need to have a way of steadying the phone.  It cannot move while you are taking the photo or it will blur.  You can get pretty creative wedging the phone between books, or just buy a cheap phone tripod.  
 
How to set the iPhone:  In AUTO mode, the iPhone is going to see a dark image, so the camera says— “Hey!  It’s dark!  I’m gonna go super sensitive so I can get all the light I can.”  That’s a problem because the photo gets grainy.  With 645 Pro, you tell the camera to behave light it’s a bright day, leave the sensitivity at normal.  The sensitivity is called ISO.  Turn the camera app to full manual (M setting), turn the ISO all the way down.  The picture will go dark.  So now you need to tell the camera to take a longer exposure, since the ISO is set so low.  So crank the shutter speed all the way down.
 
NO FLASH.  Turn it off.  Just don't do it.  Most people misuse their on-camera flash.  On camera flash serves one purpose:  To fill a shadow on someone's face in bright sunlight-- it even's out sunlight.  Yep, the flash is for the sunlight, not the darkness.  Totally counter intuitive, but everyone makes this common mistake.  If you want to use a flash indoors... well let's leave that for another day. 
 
Now— set the self-timer to take the photo.  Because the simple act of pressing the touch screen will blur the image.  You want the camera to count down from 10, then snap on it’s own.  
 
After, use a photo editing app (I use photoshop for iPhone, to adjust the image a bit and give it some pop.  You can do this freely because there’s no grain in the image.  I use this technique for all kinds of night photography (with or without my iPhone).  
 
There are more complex ways to take a great amp photo.  I can get into that if anyone is interested, but the idea that you need $2000 in camera gear isn’t true. 
 
Jan 27, 2015 at 12:27 AM Post #32,449 of 42,298
Thanks for that.
 
I find it very difficult to get a shot that highlights the internal structure of a tube without using the flash. I end up with a dark and shadowy pic that doesn't show the technical detail that folks want to see. There probably is a way to do it with the correct aperture setting and shutter speed etc - but I really can't be arsed. Point, click, flash. It ain't pretty, but it shows the bits that folks want to see
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Jan 27, 2015 at 12:34 AM Post #32,450 of 42,298
Well, I think I've found my tube dealer. Made the brutal drive to Madison, Wisconsin through the tail-end of the giant storm hitting the US - 5 hours of snow and freezing rain. I literally saw 4 accidents along the way. I am a slave to my hobby 
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I went down to meet with owner of a boutique audio shop and to pick up a set of Western Electric 421a, which he had ready to go when I arrived. He gave me a tour of the place.
 
Wow... it would not be a stretch to say he had more than 50,000 tubes in storage. Reasonably organized (I mean, as much as anyone would that had been collecting tubes for 50 years) on shelves and in drawers.
 
He had a *case* of WE 421a tubes ... like, a dozen of them in one box that he acquired in an estate sale. He had an original DeForest Audion in its cardboard box on display. He had a crazy collection of super-sized tubes that, in his words, are worthless but fun to look at (see photo). Tons of pre-war and WWII radio gear. His workbench had a McIntosh amp that he was restoring for someone that was originally designed for amplifying church bells (I had no idea that McIntosh made amps for that purpose).
 
I didn't even have time to look at his huge collection of reel-to-reel decks, vintage turntables and amps...
 
Pretty neat afternoon... Honestly, this guy's huge backroom was an electronics museum.
 
I think the coolest part, however, was learning how to use his Hickok Tube Tester. He asked me what else I could use, and without really thinking, I asked if he had any Amperex Orange Globe 6DJ8 tubes... he had a drawer full of them. I picked out a few, we hit the tester and I found a pair that maxed out the readings. Jesus...
 
Anyway, he wanted to keep going, but I was just overwhelmed after a couple of hours (and I was meeting a friend for dinner).
Can't wait to hear the new WE 421a... I have enough tubes now, that I should start saving for a WA2 
L3000.gif
 
 

 
Jan 27, 2015 at 1:09 AM Post #32,452 of 42,298
^^^

Awesome. Great photo and story. Thanks for posting.
 
Jan 27, 2015 at 2:16 AM Post #32,453 of 42,298
  OK, thank you again for the information.
beerchug.gif

 
Isn't it amazing that no matter what other HP's people have, they always enjoy the sound of their Grados! 
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Yeah, always been curious about the RS1s.
 
Jan 27, 2015 at 2:48 AM Post #32,454 of 42,298
So, the TS v NU in VT-99. Hard to declare a winner.
 
The real competition in VT-99 seems to be between the TS and NU, and man are they close. Both are very holographic, great soundstage, both have excellent detail all throughout the range, both have strong bass, both extended both directions. However, the difference is, for me, in the treble/upper midrange. The NU are a bit more pronounced there, to the point where they seem slightly more engaging. After listening back and forth many times, I've decided that the TS is maybe, actually, the more accurate, and the NU is adding a slight edge, but then, maybe the TS is taking a slight (and I do mean ever so slight) edge off. I am not sure that it's a fault in the NU, but in the TS, vocals simply have more "body." At times, I almost hear through the recording, through the mic, and seem to hear what the singer really sounded like. It may be that the NU's edge hides a bit of detail in the upper midrange, I am not sure. Not much, if any. Both drive at very similar levels, and I did not hear an audible change in volume when switching, as opposed to the RCA for example.
 
However, if I wasn't listening back and forth between them, I doubt I'd be able to say that one was much different than the other. I am trying to find differences, and while I know that I listened enough to know that there was a slight difference, without a doubt, between the 2, it was so very slight, in the grand scheme of things. The NU is a bit in your face, and the TS is a bit laid back, again, comparatively. That is the main difference. Both supremely enjoyable. Both sound tonally "right," both have similar extension and detail. Just slightly different takes on the upper midrange/treble. And I will say this, the TS rp is not worth 500 per pair if you can get the NU for 100-200 per pair. I lucked out and managed to snag 2 pairs of TS rp for about 50 a pair, so deals are still out there. But this thread might end up driving enough traffic to affect the market, so who knows where prices will settle. It has already affected prices some.
 
One last thing on these 2, I am listening to these on Grado PS500s, which are slightly pronounced towards the treble, and also are very forward. On a WA6 with the Brimar. It may be that with darker headphones, the NU would actually beat out the TS, I am not sure. I will definitely try to find out at the Nashville meet. Also, the NU I bought used, tested strong. The TS are NOS with about 20 hours on them. I feel it's a fair comparison, as I've never heard anyone claim that more hours would add an edge to the TS, and enough hours that it won't change much more. If it changed at all from first listen to now, it would be a slight edge taken off. I might be making that up too, who knows. Very little change.
 
 
 
Afterwards, I listened to the RCA VT-99: This is much closer to the TS rp than I would have thought, reading online reviews. It is the steal of the VT-99, without a doubt. There was a guy not long ago selling matched pairs of these for 60 bucks. I took a 10 minute break after hearing the TS, and when I heard the RCA, I was like "wow, is this really any worse than the TS?" I had to switch back to the TS again, and much like the NU, the RCA are not that far off at all. I would say that of the 3, the NU is slightly on the bright, edgy side, the TS in the middle, and the RCA right under the TS. The RCA might have the slightest veil, but listening to it normally, I did not notice it. That probably contributes to its reputation as darker, with a bigger midrange. Its bass performance might be slightly less detailed, but it does not have any more or less bass presence than the TS, except maybe ever so slightly less definition/extension way down low. Separation/imaging slightly worse. Slightly more 2d. Maybe it is just slightly less detailed/bright, and that would explain everything I hear. Not that it is "dark," just a tad darker, still oodles of detail. Definitely different. Hard to really describe the difference, as well. Laid back.
 
By the way, the Raytheons are very good too. I'd say they were as good as any of the rest, except they are a bit sibilant. The treble is pronounced, and if only the midrange was also pronounced, that would be fine, but it's not. Vocals can definitely sound more sibilant. That said, I have less than 2 hours on these, so I need to give them more time before I say anything definitive. I think the sibilance will be tamed into something manageable. Very, very close to the RCA otherwise.
 
 
To sum it all up, knowing what I now know, I would say to first, snap up a few pairs of the RCA grey glass, and don't pay more than 35-40 per tube. They are the best value, and they will only get more and more rare. If you can find NU and TS at around 100 per tube, they are worth it. The Tung Sol is the king, in my opinion, but by a hair. I would be happy with any of the top 3, very happy.
 
Jan 27, 2015 at 3:04 AM Post #32,455 of 42,298
  Well, I think I've found my tube dealer. Made the brutal drive to Madison, Wisconsin through the tail-end of the giant storm hitting the US - 5 hours of snow and freezing rain. I literally saw 4 accidents along the way. I am a slave to my hobby 
blink.gif

 
I went down to meet with owner of a boutique audio shop and to pick up a set of Western Electric 421a, which he had ready to go when I arrived. He gave me a tour of the place.
 
Wow... it would not be a stretch to say he had more than 50,000 tubes in storage. Reasonably organized (I mean, as much as anyone would that had been collecting tubes for 50 years) on shelves and in drawers.
 
He had a *case* of WE 421a tubes ... like, a dozen of them in one box that he acquired in an estate sale. He had an original DeForest Audion in its cardboard box on display. He had a crazy collection of super-sized tubes that, in his words, are worthless but fun to look at (see photo). Tons of pre-war and WWII radio gear. His workbench had a McIntosh amp that he was restoring for someone that was originally designed for amplifying church bells (I had no idea that McIntosh made amps for that purpose).
 
I didn't even have time to look at his huge collection of reel-to-reel decks, vintage turntables and amps...
 
Pretty neat afternoon... Honestly, this guy's huge backroom was an electronics museum.
 
I think the coolest part, however, was learning how to use his Hickok Tube Tester. He asked me what else I could use, and without really thinking, I asked if he had any Amperex Orange Globe 6DJ8 tubes... he had a drawer full of them. I picked out a few, we hit the tester and I found a pair that maxed out the readings. Jesus...
 
Anyway, he wanted to keep going, but I was just overwhelmed after a couple of hours (and I was meeting a friend for dinner).
Can't wait to hear the new WE 421a... I have enough tubes now, that I should start saving for a WA2 
L3000.gif
 
 


Awesome stuff, thanks for the photos. That 355A is huge !
 
Jan 27, 2015 at 3:06 AM Post #32,456 of 42,298
Jan 27, 2015 at 3:06 AM Post #32,457 of 42,298
  So, the TS v NU in VT-99. Hard to declare a winner.
 
The real competition in VT-99 seems to be between the TS and NU, and man are they close. Both are very holographic, great soundstage, both have excellent detail all throughout the range, both have strong bass, both extended both directions. However, the difference is, for me, in the treble/upper midrange. The NU are a bit more pronounced there, to the point where they seem slightly more engaging. After listening back and forth many times, I've decided that the TS is maybe, actually, the more accurate, and the NU is adding a slight edge, but then, maybe the TS is taking a slight (and I do mean ever so slight) edge off. I am not sure that it's a fault in the NU, but in the TS, vocals simply have more "body." At times, I almost hear through the recording, through the mic, and seem to hear what the singer really sounded like. It may be that the NU's edge hides a bit of detail in the upper midrange, I am not sure. Not much, if any. Both drive at very similar levels, and I did not hear an audible change in volume when switching, as opposed to the RCA for example.
 
However, if I wasn't listening back and forth between them, I doubt I'd be able to say that one was much different than the other. I am trying to find differences, and while I know that I listened enough to know that there was a slight difference, without a doubt, between the 2, it was so very slight, in the grand scheme of things. The NU is a bit in your face, and the TS is a bit laid back, again, comparatively. That is the main difference. Both supremely enjoyable. Both sound tonally "right," both have similar extension and detail. Just slightly different takes on the upper midrange/treble. And I will say this, the TS rp is not worth 500 per pair if you can get the NU for 100-200 per pair. I lucked out and managed to snag 2 pairs of TS rp for about 50 a pair, so deals are still out there. But this thread might end up driving enough traffic to affect the market, so who knows where prices will settle. It has already affected prices some.
 
One last thing on these 2, I am listening to these on Grado PS500s, which are slightly pronounced towards the treble, and also are very forward. On a WA6 with the Brimar. It may be that with darker headphones, the NU would actually beat out the TS, I am not sure. I will definitely try to find out at the Nashville meet. Also, the NU I bought used, tested strong. The TS are NOS with about 20 hours on them. I feel it's a fair comparison, as I've never heard anyone claim that more hours would add an edge to the TS, and enough hours that it won't change much more. If it changed at all from first listen to now, it would be a slight edge taken off. I might be making that up too, who knows. Very little change.
 
 
 
Afterwards, I listened to the RCA VT-99: This is much closer to the TS rp than I would have thought, reading online reviews. It is the steal of the VT-99, without a doubt. There was a guy not long ago selling matched pairs of these for 60 bucks. I took a 10 minute break after hearing the TS, and when I heard the RCA, I was like "wow, is this really any worse than the TS?" I had to switch back to the TS again, and much like the NU, the RCA are not that far off at all. I would say that of the 3, the NU is slightly on the bright, edgy side, the TS in the middle, and the RCA right under the TS. The RCA might have the slightest veil, but listening to it normally, I did not notice it. That probably contributes to its reputation as darker, with a bigger midrange. Its bass performance might be slightly less detailed, but it does not have any more or less bass presence than the TS, except maybe ever so slightly less definition/extension way down low. Separation/imaging slightly worse. Slightly more 2d. Maybe it is just slightly less detailed/bright, and that would explain everything I hear. Not that it is "dark," just a tad darker, still oodles of detail. Definitely different. Hard to really describe the difference, as well. Laid back.
 
By the way, the Raytheons are very good too. I'd say they were as good as any of the rest, except they are a bit sibilant. The treble is pronounced, and if only the midrange was also pronounced, that would be fine, but it's not. Vocals can definitely sound more sibilant. That said, I have less than 2 hours on these, so I need to give them more time before I say anything definitive. I think the sibilance will be tamed into something manageable. Very, very close to the RCA otherwise.
 
 
To sum it all up, knowing what I now know, I would say to first, snap up a few pairs of the RCA grey glass, and don't pay more than 35-40 per tube. They are the best value, and they will only get more and more rare. If you can find NU and TS at around 100 per tube, they are worth it. The Tung Sol is the king, in my opinion, but by a hair. I would be happy with any of the top 3, very happy.

 
 
Great post, thanks. Were the Raytheon round or flat plates?
 
Jan 27, 2015 at 3:23 AM Post #32,458 of 42,298
Well, to say I'm amazed is an understatement! Been listening to the newly arrived Elrog 300b's in the Woo WA5...with just 3 hours on them, the clarity, the lack of any harshness, the bass, the depth of the soundstage, is remarkable. To hear all these attributes through my AKG K1000, is literally astounding! I had to turn the Woo off...could not stop listening!! If they sounded like this after only 3 hours, can't imagine after 100+ hours. No wonder there is a run on this tube? Btw, Trueaudiophile.com where I purchased them, were great to deal with.
 
Jan 27, 2015 at 7:07 AM Post #32,460 of 42,298
Well, to say I'm amazed is an understatement! Been listening to the newly arrived Elrog 300b's in the Woo WA5...with just 3 hours on them, the clarity, the lack of any harshness, the bass, the depth of the soundstage, is remarkable. To hear all these attributes through my AKG K1000, is literally astounding! I had to turn the Woo off...could not stop listening!! If they sounded like this after only 3 hours, can't imagine after 100+ hours. No wonder there is a run on this tube? Btw, Trueaudiophile.com where I purchased them, were great to deal with.


You are in for a pleasant surprise when they get to the 50- 60 hour mark and then they are really magical once they get over 100 hours.
 

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