[average_joe]

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To keep it short, the 4ai does have a slight bass boost to give it that sense of naturalness, while enjoyable it is not neutral in the sense I find it 100% accurate.  There is also a narrow midrange suckout that affects the coherence of strings like the guitar in Hotel California from Hell Freezes over for example.  That's all I can say for now as I'm on the loaner program for the 3ai and 4ai and need to decide how i will be passing along my impressions.
 
The 4ai sounds quite different from the ER4S or UERM.  

 
So, if there is a bass boost for naturalness, wouldn't that be natural and truly what flat should be?  Not to say you are wrong, but just asking a question.
 
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i need it to have 0 emphazsis around the band + a good soundstage and great seperation .. i pretty much love a good static sounding bass presentation..

 
In my experience, that would be the NT-6...not warm or enhanced, but oh so capable in the bass region if necessary.  However, the treble is north of neutral/flat to my ears.  

 

[7nationarmy]

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Where are you getting this information?  It is clear you have not heard the 4ai.

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To keep it short, the 4ai does have a slight bass boost to give it that sense of naturalness, while enjoyable it is not neutral in the sense I find it 100% accurate.  There is also a narrow midrange suckout that affects the coherence of strings like the guitar in Hotel California from Hell Freezes over for example.  That's all I can say for now as I'm on the loaner program for the 3ai and 4ai and need to decide how i will be passing along my impressions.
 
The 4ai sounds quite different from the ER4S or UERM.  

I find the bolded statement paradoxical. If it have the naturalness due to what you mentioned as bass boost, doesn't it sounds very close to the raw recording (uncolored/flat)? Naturalness is how close it is to the recording, which consists of timbre, and well, how uncolored it is.
 
I still stand on my judgement that it is neutral, just as all the reviews on 4.Ai (and I believe Heir mentioned in their website that it is tuned to be neutral); but I think it is best to wait for proper measurements to really measure flatness. Especially before bashing other people (and technically all the 4.Ai reviewers here in Head-fi). You can disagree, but stop making people seem like they do not know any crap about what there are talking about. I know where I am coming from.

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

So, if there is a bass boost for naturalness, wouldn't that be natural and truly what flat should be?  Not to say you are wrong, but just asking a question.

 
No, because it does it to everything and doesn't reflect the recording, it reflects the headphones tuning.  In many instances the MD's sound 'natural' to me but I would never call them neutral, accurate or reference.
 
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I find the bolded statement paradoxical. If it have the naturalness due to what you mentioned as bass boost, doesn't it sounds very close to the raw recording (uncolored/flat)? Naturalness is how close it is to the recording, which consists of timbre, and well, how uncolored it is.
 
I still stand on my judgement that it is neutral, just as all the reviews on 4.Ai (and I believe Heir mentioned in their website that it is tuned to be neutral); but I think it is best to wait for proper measurements to really measure flatness. Especially before bashing other people (and technically all the 4.Ai reviewers here in Head-fi). You can disagree, but stop making people seem like they do not know any crap about what there are talking about. I know where I am coming from.

 
Whatever, read above.  I have the measurements to know what the crap I'm hearing so your judgement means just about squat when it's quoting other people's impressions or manufacturer hopes and claims.  I'm not sure how you could even put the ER4 and 4ai in the same sentence.  Unpublished rule of headphone impressions, never make an absolute claim or recommendation about a phone YOU have never heard before yourself.

 

[tinyman392]

I think the difference lies in the different definitions for the word natural we have.  This is one of the biggest words that is highly used, but never means the same thing.  In this case, one party is saying that natural -> flat.  The other group says it doesn't.  I haven't heard the 4.Ai, so I can't comment.  I've read it's neutral, but then again, this is from a small range of people.  And even further, neutral is used in a very inaccurate fashion nowadays on Head-Fi.  

 

[Inks]

I agree with Anax, take user's comments about what's neutral with a huge grain of salt. 
 
I'm having my take on the 4ai soon and it will reveal a lot in terms of it's frequency response. 

 

[Anaxilus]

I didn't even say the IEM sounds natural.  I said it adds a bit of bass boost to elevate the low end to add a sense of naturalness much as you would get from room gain via speakers.  This is a comment about being true to the recording versus being euphonic.

 

[average_joe]

Great article IMO by Tyll Hertsens - Beyond Neutral
 
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No, because it does it to everything and doesn't reflect the recording, it reflects the headphones tuning. In many instances the MD's sound 'natural' to me but I would never call them neutral, accurate or reference.

 
I know what you are talking about.  Something that is truly "neutral" and transparent in my eyes is something that changes with the recording and has the dynamic range to reproduce whatever is in the track, however it was originally recorded.  It is much easier for me to review products that impart a defined sound signature on the music as it is easy to grasp.  But when I review one of those transparent SOBs and I think I have it down, I listen to another track from a different artist and different era and I have a different sound signature.  But I digress because that doesn't mean the FR is flat, or it sounds natural...

 

[7nationarmy]

Whatever, read above.  I have the measurements to know what the crap I'm hearing so your judgement means just about squat when it's quoting other people's impressions or manufacturer hopes and claims.  I'm not sure how you could even put the ER4 and 4ai in the same sentence.  Unpublished rule of headphone impressions, never make an absolute claim or recommendation about a phone YOU have never heard before yourself.

Then please post your measurements. Prove that whatever I was hearing out of the 4.A is wrong and I will gladly take back all my words. You also never read my post correctly. I never said ER4 sounds the same as 4.Ai. I just said that it is neutral, but ER4s and 4.A have different presentation.

Also, if the 4.Ai sounds entirely different from 4.A, my bad.

 

[tomscy2000]

Quote:

To keep it short, the 4ai does have a slight bass boost to give it that sense of naturalness, while enjoyable it is not neutral in the sense I find it 100% accurate.  There is also a narrow midrange suckout that affects the coherence of strings like the guitar in Hotel California from Hell Freezes over for example.  That's all I can say for now as I'm on the loaner program for the 3ai and 4ai and need to decide how i will be passing along my impressions.
 
The 4ai sounds quite different from the ER4S or UERM.  

 
This man speaks the truth. It's hard to get rid of the 3.5 kHz dip in the TWFK, and the bass is definitely boosted a few dB, but not enough to upset the Ety-lovers. To me, the bass is boosted the perfect point, where it can hit hard when it needs to, and disappear when it doesn't. It's also the best tuning of the TWFK I've heard to correlate with both accuracy and musical fullness.

 

[tomscy2000]

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  Also, if the 4.Ai sounds entirely different from 4.A, my bad.

 
Not entirely different, but it is different. Insertion depth, isolation, and acoustics of silicone tips affect the sound a fair bit. Then again, you heard the 4.A demo, which should be similar to the 4.Ai. The custom-4.A is different from the 4.Ai, but it is not more neutral.
 
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X2, the B2s need long tips to even out that treble though. 
 
Most balanced IEM I have seem seems to be the ER4B with orange Knowles dampers. Personally I have found the HF5s with brown dampers and short tips to be the most balanced IEM I have heard with a bit of compensation on the treble due to the brightness of newer recordings, while having all the sparkle needed for even those recordings without it. Amazed how there's really no sibilance and yet it's highly revealing like a ER4S or B. 

 
Or big ear canals, or a high tolerance to pain...

 
Do the HF5/4P with brown dampers solve its issue in the highs? I much prefer the 4S (in the F111) and the 4B.
 
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  Even with the proper compensations, the W4 is not that flat. Funny, to me the W4 is kind of like how Anaxilus is describing the Heir 4ai. 

 
They're similar but not the same. They have about the same bass impact, and that's about it. The W4 has more mid-bass, and less of a slope upwards from 600-2000. I compensated the W4 to sound most like the 4.Ai by using bullet tips, and it was still inferior in the highs.

 

[7nationarmy]

Well the difference between 4.a and the 4.ai explains it. I was arguing apples and oranges. My bad. Sorry for that.

 

[Inks]

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Do the HF5/4P with brown dampers solve its issue in the highs? I much prefer the 4S (in the F111) and the 4B.

  Ya the HF5s are missing a bit on top in stock form, the brown, gray or even white filters remedy that. With the brown or gray filters I dare say to likely place them on par as long as you use short tips as well. 

 

[DigitalFreak]

Thr following 4 are the only IEM's I can class as anywhere near the realm of neutral
 
Meelectronics A151 (neutral sound with a lack of extension on both ends, good entry level IEM but lacks detail, can't really be compared to the bottom listed it's a bang for the buck entry level IEM that does well in it's price range and little else)
Sony MDR EX 600 (flat sounding mids and bass with a tizzy sounding treble that's north of neutral, loaded upper mid and can be sibilant with bad source, I had to kill the hiss with tri flange tips)
Westone W4 ( maybe I'm in the minority here but in my opinion the W4 is to mid centric, warm, lacks to much up top in the highs, and has to much bloat in the bass to be considered a neutral never mind flat)
j-Phonic K2 sp (really dry sounding mids with nice detailed treble, surprisingly not very sibilant at all but has a slightly boosted bass. mid bass can get a little carried away at times but has nice rumble none the less, whether they can rumble as well as the W4 I still haven't developed a final opinion, the bass does seem to behave well enough when not wanted though)
 
I don't think any of the above can really be classed as true neutrals or flat but they are a fun listen and I'm guessing most of the hardcore on this thread would rate them as passably accurate and natural. My two personal favorites are the Sony MDR EX600 and the j-Phonic K2 sp but of coarse that's just me YMMV
 
I await your thoughts on my post gentlemen

 

[Sylaw]

ohh god... lots of arguments are going in here... sorry for nt checking the thread , i had sm office work ( my new caller center job ) lol..
 
what ever i found that some one said that i find w4 and er4s are very much natural..  its highly wrong.. i said at least these comes close to being natural "
 
by the way i feel like giving ue900s a shot... + need more info abt others as well..   and again what amuses me is that some 1 said that w4 has a bass blot.!! i never heard a blotyness for last 8 months....  i dnt knw what kind of a tip that u are using..  for the reference i use the shure " yellow " foam tip.. which gives the w4s a very nice transparency..

 

[jmorenor]

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UE IERM

 
Same opinion here...