The Stax thread (New)

[dreamwhisper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ridleyguy I am curious to find out how many of the high-end Stax owners went the electrostatic route after going as far as you could go with dynamics, i.e recabling, amplifiers, DACs etc?

Well I knew something was iffy when I realised that the isodynamic headphones I tried were a better transducer; they provided more musical information than any of the dynamics I had heard before them.
And I would rate them higher than most dynamics I've heard...
Then I tried the K340's and further felt that dynamics really weren't presenting the information as cohesively as this new electro/dynamic hybrid...

And so, the decision to go stat was really already made, and I am not interested in dynamics anymore save if I find myself actually wanting coloration. (like the forward mids of some of the high-end Audio-Technica's)
Otherwise, for me, simply the way dynamics present information is already colored enough for me to not want to listen to them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ridleyguy recabling

A trend I see at head-fi that I don't understand is that people use cables to change the tonal balance of a headphone.
This is backwards imo. Better quality cables should be used to allow music to travel through transparently and reject outside interference.
I've observed first hand that cables can change the tonal balance of a headphone (Zu Mobius HD650's)
but I don't want to listen to cables.. and let me emphasize that we're talking very subtle changes here... I want to listen to the music traveling thru cables ...
so I guess my point being if you are really worried about cabling, you need a better transducer (Stax!), and prbly also a better source, amp.

 

[Ridleyguy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamwhisper /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well I knew something was iffy when I realised that the isodynamic headphones I tried were a better transducer; they provided more musical information than any of the dynamics I had heard before them. And I would rate them higher than most dynamics I've heard... Then I tried the K340's and further felt that dynamics really weren't presenting the information as cohesively as this new electro/dynamic hybrid... And so, the decision to go stat was really already made, and I am not interested in dynamics anymore save if I find myself actually wanting coloration. (like the forward mids of some of the high-end Audio-Technica's) Otherwise, for me, simply the way dynamics present information is already colored enough for me to not want to listen to them. A trend I see at head-fi that I don't understand is that people use cables to change the tonal balance of a headphone. This is backwards imo. Better quality cables should be used to allow music to travel through transparently and reject outside interference. I've observed first hand that cables can change the tonal balance of a headphone (Zu Mobius HD650's) but I don't want to listen to cables.. and let me emphasize that we're talking very subtle changes here... I want to listen to the music traveling thru cables ... so I guess my point being if you are really worried about cabling, you need a better transducer (Stax!), and prbly also a better source, amp.

You make a number of very persuasive points. On cables, I completely agree with your take on what you do and don't want them to do. When I ordered my SAA Equinox, which I probably only have 50 hrs. on, I was relying both on reviews, and the fact that the owner was a former Sennheiser engineer. Plus I wanted to see what impact (if any) recabling had on my 650s first hand.

I'm not sure yet if my HD650s even with the Equinox cable will ever be able to compare to the K701s with classical music - and piano in particular. Coloured' as you put it is a good word to describe their sound, but on the other hand, I don't see K701s as being coloured. I know they are not as transparent as even my old MkIIs, but their soundstage and the layering of the orchestra they project...it's addictive, and if the HD800s are even better ...Hmm. Can Stax improve on that?

 

[spritzer]

SAA is just as full of crap as the rest of the cable peddlers. He's charging a boatload for a similar cable (in terms of how the copper is drawn) to what Stax have been using since 1987 on all of their TOTL models. I've been here a long time and seen cable go from being a small scale tweak to a magic bullet that will fix just how horrible any headphone is to begin with. This is all utter hyperbole along with the magical burn-in which will also fix the simple fact that underneath that pretty box (amp, dac etc.) is just badly designed garbage.

As for the dynamic competition, the HD800 is a fine headphone but far from the best Senn have ever come up with. Overpriced as is the norm with Sennheiser and simply pales against a well driven HE60. I never cared for the K701 and felt it was a huge step down for AKG compared to such great dynamics as the K501 and K1000. Even a bad version of the Lambda frame puts them to shame and would be cheaper too.

 

[Ridleyguy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spritzer /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is all utter hyperbole along with the magical burn-in which will also fix the simple fact that underneath that pretty box (amp, dac etc.) is just badly designed garbage. .

If an amplifier uses OIMP V-Caps, are you saying that they do not require significant burn-in?

 

[spritzer]

How would a capacitor benefit from being run in for hours on end being charged countless times? Does its value change any more then can be accounted for by changes due to the increasing temperature inside the amp? The V-caps are no different from all the other film caps (using oil or not) so why would they require so much time to charge up?

Warmup is very real and so is that it takes time to get to know any system but some magical changes at 200 hours are just silly. Spend some time building your own gear (and hearing it from the first minute) and you see how much crap all of this really is.

 

[Ridleyguy]

I was only going by tests of various capacitors I have read about, with 400 hrs. of burn-in with AC before testing, but my knowledge of this subject you could put in a thimble and have room to spare, so I'm certainly not disputing what you say, and appreciate your comments.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spritzer /img/forum/go_quote.gif SAA is just as full of crap as the rest of the cable peddlers. He's charging a boatload for a similar cable (in terms of how the copper is drawn) to what Stax have been using since 1987 on all of their TOTL models. I've been here a long time and seen cable go from being a small scale tweak to a magic bullet that will fix just how horrible any headphone is to begin with. This is all utter hyperbole along with the magical burn-in which will also fix the simple fact that underneath that pretty box (amp, dac etc.) is just badly designed garbage. As for the dynamic competition, the HD800 is a fine headphone but far from the best Senn have ever come up with. Overpriced as is the norm with Sennheiser and simply pales against a well driven HE60. I never cared for the K701 and felt it was a huge step down for AKG compared to such great dynamics as the K501 and K1000. Even a bad version of the Lambda frame puts them to shame and would be cheaper too.

Just curious, what have you heard the HD800 driven from, and was the cable stock? I find the HD800 on an Eddie Current ZDT with Warren Audio cable comes very close to the HE60 driven by the Woo WES. I really need to sit down sometime and do a really thorough comparison, but I do tend to lean toward the HE60/WES more.

 

[dreamwhisper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ridleyguy /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not sure yet if my HD650s even with the Equinox cable will ever be able to compare to the K701s with classical music - and piano in particular. Coloured' as you put it is a good word to describe their sound, but on the other hand, I don't see K701s as being coloured. I know they are not as transparent as even my old MkIIs, but their soundstage and the layering of the orchestra they project...it's addictive, and if the HD800s are even better ...Hmm. Can Stax improve on that?

Yeah the Equinox is an all-copper cable and I think that it would be an improvement from the stock cable in terms of purity of metal and the conductivity that goes along with that.
Of course I'm not an expert but I personally wouldn't pay such a premium for these aftermarket cables when all they are is better quality wires.
I would however buy the headphone cables used, but only because the quality wire that is used in them isn't as readily available, like with Blue Jeans cable, unless you're into DIY.
For any other sort of digital or analog cable I am a big fan of blue jeans cable because it has better spec's than the industry standard Starquad cable that is used by recording engineers.

I've heard the AKG K340 and K501... If the K501 is anything like the K701, then yes, the O2/717 is superior to them. (and the 717 is the budget amp) The K501's are like listening to loudspeakers a football field away. And the only way I've heard an AKG headphone that could improve on that principal, the K340, was because of the electrostatic technology used. (can't comment on the K1000)
I have a lot of respect for AKG because they made the K340, as well as the K240, a great 'lively sounding' budget studio monitor headphone.

Considering the AKG phone's I've heard, I feel comfortable speculating that no matter how intimate-sounding we think the K501/K701 are, the O2's are MOAR intimate, not to mention technically superior in every way.

I haven't heard the K1000, so I can only speculate.
The only way in my mind the K1000's would be able to compete with the O2's is because they both share the principal of being 'earspeakers' in that a single K1000 speaker side can be heard by both ears, allowing for a greater sense of air.
The R10 also have 'ports' which allow for air flow. No idea if this is a pattern and a commonly celebrated feature.
To me, dynamic drivers just aren't as technologically advanced, (to my ears anyway)
and even more important to me is just how non-fatiguing stats are to listen to.

...I would be curious to see if a Qualia could redeem dynamic headphones for me with rock music as Deadneddz suggests....although, I don't see a dynamic headphone ever again being my main phone because electrostatic phones are so non-fatiguing.

 

[Ridleyguy]

I noticed that Skylab has just unboxed some 30 year old "new" AKG340s in another new thread today (Full-Size headphones) and his comments very much support what you are saying about AKG products, quite coincidentally.

 

[dreamwhisper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ridleyguy /img/forum/go_quote.gif I noticed that Skylab has just unboxed some 30 year old "new" AKG340s in another new thread today (Full-Size headphones) and his comments very much support what you are saying about AKG products, quite coincidentally.

Interesting. Skylab has bought and sold the K340's a few times. In fact, I bought my pair from him.
I'm pretty curious to see what he has to say.

EDIT: bah, he didn't even get them modded, did he?
C'mon that's the one thing a 30 year old headphone is going to need most.
Have you seen the stock plastic mesh screen on those headphones? Gross...

The one problem I had with the K340 is that to hear the same level of detail I hear with an O2 at a sane volume I have to turn the K340 waaay up.
I didn't understand why the K340's were so fatiguing for me until I realised just how loud I was listening to them.
Maybe they just need moar power, like from speaker taps as opposed to an OTL tube amp.

 

[Ridleyguy]

Good comments - either way!

 

[edstrelow]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamwhisper /img/forum/go_quote.gif I haven't heard the K1000, so I can only speculate. The only way in my mind the K1000's would be able to compete with the O2's is because they both share the principal of being 'earspeakers' in that a single K1000 speaker side can be heard by both ears, allowing for a greater sense of air. The R10 also have 'ports' which allow for air flow. No idea if this is a pattern and a commonly celebrated feature. To me, dynamic drivers just aren't as technologically advanced, (to my ears anyway) and even more important to me is just how non-fatiguing stats are to listen to. .

I had a good chance to listen to several AKG K1000 set-ups at the last Canjam. To my mind their best feature is the out-of-the head characteristic you get when the drivers are angled at about 90 degrees to the head. In that respect they are like the Stax Sigma. However the K1000 lacks the electrostatic clarity and has a good deal less bass than the Sigmas, especially when the drivers are angled out.

However I did like playing with the drivers trying different positions.

 

[spritzer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ridleyguy /img/forum/go_quote.gif I was only going by tests of various capacitors I have read about, with 400 hrs. of burn-in with AC before testing, but my knowledge of this subject you could put in a thimble and have room to spare, so I'm certainly not disputing what you say, and appreciate your comments.

All capacitors have a sound since they are in effect coloring the signal that goes through them. 100% linear they are not but saying they need to be run in for hundreds of hours makes no sense to me. I used to believe this but that was before I gained experience working with caps and hearing how they work and alter the sound.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeadphoneAddict /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just curious, what have you heard the HD800 driven from, and was the cable stock? I find the HD800 on an Eddie Current ZDT with Warren Audio cable comes very close to the HE60 driven by the Woo WES. I really need to sit down sometime and do a really thorough comparison, but I do tend to lean toward the HE60/WES more.

Custom Dynalo, B22, Dynahi, Auditor and a monster DHT amp with custom transformers. Headphones were fully stock with a multitude of sources, my APL, ML 30/31 stack, my AZ DAC1 plus some EMM labs gear.

As for Warren Audio, you are aware that it is just cheap magnet wire in those cables right? That is the cheapest wire you can find at any electronics store to wind your own transformers, coils etc. Couple that with the fact that the idiot can't even solder and you've certainly got the combination of a true winner...

 

[krmathis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ridleyguy /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am curious to find out how many of the high-end Stax owners went the electrostatic route after going as far as you could go with dynamics, i.e recabling, amplifiers, DACs etc?

To me the route have sort of gone the other way.
My first "real" headphone was the Stax SR-007BL back in 2006, following a Grado SR80. I then went through some 10 other Stax 'phones (4070, SR-404, SR-X/MK3 (Pro), SR-Lambda Pro, ..) before turning towards moving coil. The AKG K1000 that is.
4 years later I still have the SR-007BL, but spend most of my time listening to a K1000.

I do really love electrostatics, but their high demand for amplification lead me to look elsewhere.
No HeadAmp KGBH SE, Woo WES or RSA A10 back then (mid-2008), so the choices were somewhat limited.

One never know what the future will bring.

 

[Currawong]

I have to say the stock HD-800 cable is crap. Putting an APS cable on mine has brought them closer to what I appreciate in Lambdas in the treble, whilst retaining the punch of dynamic headphones in the bass. That being said, the best Stax amp I've had the chance to use Lambdas with is the 717, so I understand that until I finish building my eXStatA, I likely wont realise their full potential. I look forward to the eXStatA + O2 bettering my current rig (and dread it for the cost of the O2s that I'll have to pay).