[jant71]

Other than audio drivers and beryllium copper mmcx sockets, I have not.

I do know that beryllium copper hand tools are common in the mining industry, as they are non sparking so there is less chance of mining explosions.

SHHHH! Your letting the new driver coating out of the bag too soon. Oh well. Be Cu drivers coming to an earphone near you!

 

[audio123]

...did you seriously get it in like 1 day????

Do you have a secret teleportation device or something???

A week actually haha. Spot on analysis mate.

 

[Owludio]

So, then put it in the damn Zero which they should have done in the first place. And keep it at $100. And put the damn DM8 out already.

The DD in Zero was indeed disappointing. BGVP wasted good TDK EST. Why not put that TDK driver in the nice resin shell along with good DLC or Be DD and make a killing in $200 range instead of DM8.

I think Rose Miracle EST ie very very interesting, but also QDC 3D Magic and i don't know why Rose Miracle hasn't get reviews...

DMagic would be interesting last year but today there is no going back to DD treble, not even to ier-z1r DD. I liked z1r treble and missed it since I had to return it due to fit issues, but Sonion EST are even better. This EST treble maybe less natural than Sonys,
but more resolving and more forgiving at the same time.
Rose developing into fun gentle V with quaky rumbling bass and bright & smooth treble. Upper mids are less forward and also are forgiving. (kind of like L3). I need to give it at least another 100 hours before making more comments. I really would rather have Be DD from Opus Mia in it. What a glorious bass DD...

 

[cscales]

My definition of "seasoned audiophile" is someone who is critical enough, and indeed salty enough, to see this hobby as being especially susceptible to being taken advantage of by peddlers of spurious claims and snake oil marketing, and can therefore exercise an independent and fact-based judgment when it comes to metals and cables and the like

Picture this...

You are interested in an iem. A reviewer writes "...and I pressed play on Dark Side and I was goooone...."

...and for you the rest of the review is irrelevant. Nothing Else Matters.

You are sold.

Ammendment to the definition of "seasoned audiophile".

 

[RikudouGoku]

Mangird MT4 ( 1 dd + 3 BA (2 sonion/ 1 Knowles)) = 200 usd

https://www.linsoul.com/collections/all/products/mangird-mt4

 

[RikudouGoku]

I just noticed that sonion has removed their datasheet on their "EST" drivers on their site: https://www.sonion.com/audio/tweeters/

Back when we "exposed" them for it being an electret instead of an EST, the datasheet was still up. But its gone now.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-discovery-thread.586909/page-3216#post-15738440

But you can find it on google at least:

Isnt this a pretty bad move ethically speaking on their part? Because it feels like they removed the datasheet so no one else would find out it isnt a true EST after we pointed it out (sadly we didnt post screenshots on it..).
(And all the other datasheets for their BA drivers are still up, so it definitely seems like they are removing the proof of their "EST" not being a true EST.)

So isnt this false marketing or something? Feels pretty crappy and unexpected from a western brand.

 

[ChrisOc]

I just noticed that sonion has removed their datasheet on their "EST" drivers on their site: https://www.sonion.com/audio/tweeters/

Back when we "exposed" them for it being an electret instead of an EST, the datasheet was still up. But its gone now.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-discovery-thread.586909/page-3216#post-15738440

But you can find it on google at least:

Isnt this a pretty bad move ethically speaking on their part? Because it feels like they removed the datasheet so no one else would find out it isnt a true EST after we pointed it out (sadly we didnt post screenshots on it..).
(And all the other datasheets for their BA drivers are still up, so it definitely seems like they are removing the proof of their "EST" not being a true EST.)

So isnt this false marketing or something? Feels pretty crappy and unexpected from a western brand.

It may be legally misleading as well as may be false advertising. This appears to be a situation where a buyer who would otherwise not buy the product is persuaded to buy that product believing it has an electrostatic driver or drivers.

I am not sure about the law anywhere else but in the UK and the EU such a misleading advertisement could lead to a claim against Sonion.

 

[RikudouGoku]

It may be legally misleading as well as may be false advertising. This appears to be a situation where a buyer who would otherwise not buy the product is persuaded to buy that product believing it has an electrostatic driver or drivers.

I am not sure about the law anywhere else but in the UK and the EU such a misleading advertisement could lead to a claim against Sonion.

Shuoer is doing something similar too: https://www.linsoul.com/collections/shuoer/products/shuoer-tape

It is a magnetostat and not an electrostat.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-world-s-first-magneto-static-earphone-hpsd-e70#/

But I guess that since Shuoer is from china there isnt much we can do about it.

 

[JEHL]

I just noticed that sonion has removed their datasheet on their "EST" drivers on their site: https://www.sonion.com/audio/tweeters/

Back when we "exposed" them for it being an electret instead of an EST, the datasheet was still up. But its gone now.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-discovery-thread.586909/page-3216#post-15738440

But you can find it on google at least:

Isnt this a pretty bad move ethically speaking on their part? Because it feels like they removed the datasheet so no one else would find out it isnt a true EST after we pointed it out (sadly we didnt post screenshots on it..).
(And all the other datasheets for their BA drivers are still up, so it definitely seems like they are removing the proof of their "EST" not being a true EST.)

So isnt this false marketing or something? Feels pretty crappy and unexpected from a western brand.

I once looked at a DIY EST headphone guide and looks like the driver is an ultra thin BoPET layer sandwiched between 2 charged steel grilles that function as stators. What's so different here out of genuine curiosity?

 

[RikudouGoku]

I once looked at a DIY EST headphone guide and looks like the driver is an ultra thin BoPET layer sandwiched between 2 charged steel grilles that function as stators. What's so different here out of genuine curiosity?

Biggest difference I know of a "true" EST. Is that those requires a separate amp for the driver.

Like the Shure KSE1500: https://www.shure.com/en-US/products/earphones/kse1500

 

[ChrisOc]

In most instances buyers walk away from the product if they believe it is false marketing. The difficulty for Sonion is that they have neatly carved a market for themselves and appear to be exclusive suppliers to the industry.

Most of us do not have a contract with Sonion as we bought from IEM manufacturers, so our contract is with the manufacturer.

The question is whether the brands which use Sonion electret drivers masquerading as "electrostatic" drivers are complicit. They would be complicit if they knew that they were using electret drivers yet marketing them as electrostatic drivers.

Sorry for the legal language.

 

[ChrisOc]

Back when we "exposed" them for it being an electret instead of an EST, the datasheet was still up. But its gone now.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-discovery-thread.586909/page-3216#post-15738440

You may not need to show the datasheet if there are others who can attest to the fact. However, as the IEMs with Sonion "electrostatic" we buy are from IEM manufacturers so there is no contractual relationship between us and Sonion.

It is conceivable that a claim against an OEM would lead to the OEM bringing Sonion in as a party to the claim, so Sonion is forced to answer the claim that its "electrostatic" drivers are in fact electret drivers.

 

[JEHL]

Biggest difference I know of a "true" EST. Is that those requires a separate amp for the driver.

Like the Shure KSE1500: https://www.shure.com/en-US/products/earphones/kse1500

I'll admit is mostly out of pure curiosity, it's certainly misleading the deletion of the spec sheets regardless of what's actually inside the drivers.

Edit: To my personal understanding, the biggest advantage of EST drivers is that the electrically charged parts are not attached to the membrane at all, effectively the don't add mass to the moving part.

 

[ChrisOc]

I am not sure of the facts, but I read somewhere that Knowles brought a claim against another manufacturer for their claims that they were using a particular type or brand of drivers which turned out to be false following Knowles examination of the product. It seems that manufacturer was using an inferior driver.

Don't quote me on this, I have not done my research on it, so I am entirely reliant on my recollection of what I read, which is why I do not mention the name of the manufacturer.

 

[RikudouGoku]

I am not sure of the facts, but I read somewhere that Knowles brought a claim against another manufacturer for their claims that they were using a particular type or brand of drivers which turned out to be false following Knowles examination of the product. It seems that manufacturer was using an inferior driver.

Don't quote me on this, I have not done my research on it, so I am entirely reliant on my recollection of what I read, which is why I do not mention the name of the manufacturer.

You are right, it was that a lot of brands for example Campfire Audio used Bellsing drivers instead of knowles in their Solaris (an 1500 usd iem).

https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/cxqlje/knowles_files_claim_with_us_trade_commission_to/