The discovery thread!

[newworld666]

Got the truthear x crinacle zero as a gift,not bad but maybe underwhelming. Whats the conclusion on them? Except on audiosciencereview there's not much talk about them. Harman tuning, but lacking soul is the first to come to mind.

In a way lacking soul is a reality as these IEM fit taste of 65 to 70% of listeners (based on Harman Target Frequency Response)..

As they were so cheap, I bought them to try to understand what could be wrong compared to my usual Vision Ears EXT, IE900, IE600 .. which cost till 50 times more...
And, as I am more or less in the Harman's frequency response target, that's really not so easy not to enjoy the Thruthear Zero.. they are probably lacking some details in high frequencies and some texture in low frequencies (something like a bit muddy)...
But as there is a good margin in Total Hamonic Distorsion with these => It's possible to adapt the character of the sound with some easy DSP features like with the iFi Go Blu (Xbass, Xspace) or spend a bit more time with Poweramp EQ and play with the PEQ and DSP features to find some more soul...

These last weeks, I am playing more or less only with the Truthear Zero and the planar Tangzu Ze Tian Wu => with Poweramp EQ (android 10+), I get astonishing sound quality that fit my personal taste... based on the Harman Frequency target but with some personnal taste adjustments.

Actually, because of these two IEM, I am not sure any more to spend between 1500€ to 2500€ for universal IEM, as these last months, I find improvements of un-expansive IEMs are really impressive and they leave place to personal DSP adjustments as they are already basically tuned in a quite standard Harman frequency Target without disturbing/limiting distortion.
For 50€, they are really worth the price... by a big margin.

 

[FreeWheelinAudioLuv2]

Amped Wu + Modded Sony A55 = Sweet sounds and serenity in a large hall.

 

[PROblemdetected]

For your first question, high end single DDs like the Final A8000 and DUNU LUNA can have resolution that matches some multi BA/hybrids.





For your second question about diminishing returns.
The budget segment (which I consider as < $100 USD) has the best price-performance ratio in recent years. The MIDFI segment (I consider as $100 - 300 USD), has is the sweet spot if you want to move up the line to get good sonic fidelity for a bit more coin - you pay maybe 2 - 3x more for quite a substantial upgrade in sound. Then you have the TOTL segment (> $1000 USD), which IMHO has bad diminishing returns. Moving from MIDFI to TOTL, you pay maybe 10x more for 10 - 20% improvement. And even TOTL IEMs have their weaknesses.

I would suggest that you try a few budget IEMs to see what suits you in sound signatures. Once you know what you like or dislike, it is best to upgrade to MIDFI and call it a day. Buying many budget sidegrades will add up to a TOTL set one day, and you only have one pair of ears, the rest end up in a drawer, and 80% of new releases are generally sidegrades that are not talked about in a few weeks' time. If you have the cash, then yes TOTL is the way to go, but different folks have different comfort levels when it comes to spending on audio, some want to chase that last 10% sonic fidelity at any cost, some have a tighter budget.




For your third question about driver types:
Driver type, driver brand, driver count are not as important as tuning and implementation. In general, the different transducer/driver types do have their inherent pros and cons, but there is no best driver type, it really depends on how it is implemented and what suits your preference. Companies can use the most premium of drivers like Sonions or Beryllium coated pixie dust or Uranium drivers, but if they can't tune it well, then that is a moot point. Conversely, good tuners can eke out the best performance from a cheap driver, even if it is not a branded driver so to speak.

There are exceptions of course, but in general:
1) Single DDs
- Usually are more coherent and move air/decay in the bass more naturally.
- Timbral accuracy is generally accepted to be more natural on DDs compared to other driver types
- DDs are usually vented, so there may be penalties in isolation compared to unvented BA types.
- DDs may not have as great upper treble extension as multi driver types or planars.
- Single DD types may have less technical performance than multi BAs at the same price point , especially in the budget segment (in general).

2) BAs
- BAs generally when used in a multiple configuration, may give better technicalities than a single DD.
- However, BA bass may sound less natural as it doesn't move air or decay as much as a single DD. Lately, the trend has been for vented BA bass, so as to give this bass movement of air, but they still don't sound 100% like DD bass.
- Speaking about vents, BAs generally are not vented and hence have better isolation than DDs.
- Single BAs are disadvantaged as these don't cover the upper treble and sub-bass as well as a multi-BA config. Arguably, single BAs are not too common nowadays cause of this reason.
- Cheap BAs may sound a bit less natural in timbre, especially with bass decay. YMMV, some are not particular about timbre, and certain music genres emphasize timbre more than others.

3) Hybrids
- These theoretically combine the best of both the DD and BA concept, with the DD handling the bass, and the BAs handling the higher frequencies. In practice however, there may be coherency or cross over issues - eg bass can sound much slower than the BA, or the timbre/note weight between the different drivers can sound oddly different.

4) Planars
- The hype and craze for his year. Planars generally have excellent transients and low distortion, they give excellent technical performance. Some of the planars at the $100 range can kick the behinds of higher priced DDs. However, some weaknesses (in general) would be that planar timbre doesn't sound as natural as DDs, possibly cause of the rapid transients/decay, and planar IEMs may have an issue with bass excursion. Planar IEMs have evolved rapidly in the past year or so, and I look forward to more refinement in the coming months.

Nice post,

I would to move the categories from sub100 to sub200 (thats now the sweet spot to get the hana for example)
Next category is the 200 to 500, to my taste.

But I always recommend to find your own preferences on the cheap under 60€ catalogue, then you could spend more money on the hobby.

Try to dodge the hype trains!!

 

[DaveStarWalker]

A very rare cable, real discovery for me :

https://www.spill.hk/headphones/Rhapsodio-Graphene-review/

Rhapsodio Graphene Cable (x4). About 700 bucks brand new.

Completely exotic recipe as I know :

Upocc silver (98%) and upocc gold (2%) alloy, plus graphene plated upocc copper. And Silver 925 grade upocc plated silver plugs (2 pins and jack) , ...

Franckly? Wooooooh !

Sammy is THE GUY here.

 

[ChrisOc]

This came out an hour ago...

Akros Review of AFUL ACOUSTICS Performer 5​

Listening to Akros is like chatting with a friend, good reviewer.

 

[PROblemdetected]

Testing with another filter

Nice tourbillons btw

 

[W0lrince]

Hi guys, I have a bunch of questions recently. I've been thinking how much can a single DD IEM can perform? What's the price of its diminishing returns? When do you opt for another type of transducer? Go for hybrid setups or go for planar? And generally what's the best type of transducer? These are the questions the go through my head every time I look at my cart on AliExpress.

More like what's the best iem that you can buy and enjoy than it's tech.
Quick summary for you:
DD: smooth, usually good timbre, sound natural (i mean you should not hear sharp things in real life right?), but limited air, more pricey for a really good single DD than a hybrid.
BA: timbre like someone try to push sound to you, forceful, could be good thing or bad thing depend on how good these tuned, good for orchestra
Planar: .... Haven't heard before, i only have piezo (GK10) ... If piezo is close to planar then: could be dry, detail but grainy, bass lack definitetion, rock is your friend!
- I like vocal and timbre so i always leaning toward DD iem
But i believe that tuning is more important than what the tech inside, so you don't have to care too much about it's driver!

 

[W0lrince]

So my N3ap just arrived!
, actually i just go mod it right after i hear it for the first time, like 30min or something.
- Bass: man do i hear better bass than this, but do lack little bit of detail, really need a good amp to shine
- Mid: it's so smooth that even my nephew can slide on it. Smooth organic and extremely easier to listen to (also a con)
- treble: ..... Man do i wish just a little more air...
Also technicality is good, but for 300$
So i mod it, take all the glued foam out which is quite a messy job. Put in a simple mesh filter + Y6 Filter (aliexpress) with widebore tips (or sony ex11 tips/final e for more bass), it will open up the treble a little bit (9khz-12khz), now it sound like a knock off moondrop product
Be mindful with these 10khz peak, can cause sibilance!

 

[ldo77]

My P1 Max were a completely unplanned purchase. I'd bought the AQ4 as my big purchase in the Summer Sale. Towards the end I stumbled on a deal with coupons for about $94. That was about half of the $190 price it had been going for. Very pleased with the Panda it's comfortable to wear and has a laid back sound I can listen to all day. Would have been nice to have had a case included, but that's the only nitpick. For less than the price of the T3+ , it's a steal.

Actually that seems to be a repeating pattern for me during sales. The first shop I looked at when the 11/11 sale started was Audiosense and they had NO deals up at all. A day or so later everything was on sale except AQ0. Then AQ0 dropped to half price and the T800 and AQ4 were no longer in stock. They don't even have an 11/11 page up, all on their normal sale page.

I Can see DT600 at half price.
Am I right ?
Is it a good deal ?

 

[lgcubana]

For your first question, high end single DDs like the Final A8000 and DUNU LUNA can have resolution that matches some multi BA/hybrids.





For your second question about diminishing returns.
The budget segment (which I consider as < $100 USD) has the best price-performance ratio in recent years. The MIDFI segment (I consider as $100 - 300 USD), has is the sweet spot if you want to move up the line to get good sonic fidelity for a bit more coin - you pay maybe 2 - 3x more for quite a substantial upgrade in sound. Then you have the TOTL segment (> $1000 USD), which IMHO has bad diminishing returns. Moving from MIDFI to TOTL, you pay maybe 10x more for 10 - 20% improvement. And even TOTL IEMs have their weaknesses.

I would suggest that you try a few budget IEMs to see what suits you in sound signatures. Once you know what you like or dislike, it is best to upgrade to MIDFI and call it a day. Buying many budget sidegrades will add up to a TOTL set one day, and you only have one pair of ears, the rest end up in a drawer, and 80% of new releases are generally sidegrades that are not talked about in a few weeks' time. If you have the cash, then yes TOTL is the way to go, but different folks have different comfort levels when it comes to spending on audio, some want to chase that last 10% sonic fidelity at any cost, some have a tighter budget.
.
.
.

Can’t disagree with hard facts.

But I would want to address that $300 $400 - $999 gap. I'm going to use dining out, to exemplify that gap. Because as you point out, there are diminishing returns, when you hit higher monetary tiers, in regards to IEMs.
Breakfast, < $50
Brunch, < $100
Lunch (in Miami, Manhattan), < $300 $400 (gotta include IEMs like the Xenn Mangird Tea 2)
High Tea, <$1,000
Nobu, Salt Bae, El Bulli (R.I.P.), . . .

High Tea is a point of luxury that is attainable, with some effort; it requires an environment with minimal distractions, a dedicated sit down time, allows you to unwind, with offerings that can be ethereal, yet still memorable.

If you didn’t just win 2 Billion dollars (U.S. PowerBall), for most of us, we would find our TOTL at "High Tea" :
Fiio FD7
Dunu Zen or Pro
Thieaudio Clairvoyance, . . .

I think this DayLight Savings time is messin with my lunchtime and influencing my thought process

​

 

[Carpet]

I Can see DT600 at half price.
Am I right ?
Is it a good deal ?

I already had the AQ4 and it is very good. The current discounts in the Audiosense store are better than expected, T800 and AQ4 are already sold out. DT600 was on my list of IEMs that I would like but could not afford. It is no longer on that list!

TL DR; YES, that is possibly the best deal on an IEM in the entire sale!

Edit; okay possible exception of FD7, but feedback on that is still a bit thin!

 

[Barusu Lamperouge]

Well, it’s kinda an underdog and in a way underrated. For me I almost gave it a horrible review....then after a few days the low-end worked-out. Being it’s not dramatic in the low-end anyways gave me just the right amount in the end, to come to terms with what it was doing. Also, really it’s pretty small and not really a showboat when you compare it to the planar IEMs surrounding it. It comes in a little box, with not much extras, but it performs in the end. IMO

I have found this a prevalent theme with TinHifi products. All their products age really well. Even T2 EVO which I discarded as a harsh and unbalanced sounds a lot better than it used to earlier. I can feel the rich bass and technical tuning. With a bit of tiprolling, I found a very sweet spot. Same happened with the OG T2 which I eventually sold because EVO did that job for me albeit better.

 

[Ace Bee]

First thing - I am not really fond of planar. I listened to the Timeless, and while the technical performance was quite nice, ultimately it failed to get my continued attention. Read about it here: https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/7hertz-timeless.25394/review/27416/

Now, basically what I do not like about planar is how the midrange notes sound a bit thin and lack a bit of depth. The details are well reproduced, no doubt, but the difference between the planar timbre and DD timbre changes the overall presentation. Timeless had it, S12 suffered from it. With them, the primary difference that I felt, (disclaimer: this is completely my very own opinion, and if you feel what I am spewing is pure bs and no such things exist, I'm not gonna defend myself, as I can not realistically make anyone experience what I am experiencing), that the base of the midrange notes did not have that much weight, the middle part of the note body was slightly thin but quite detailed, and the trailing edge was pretty good. That lightness of the base failed to add that last bit of realism to the notes, so they felt kinda wispy.
Apart from that, the upper midrange felt a bit of uneven and slightly harsh, bright obviously. There was a slight metallic sheen to the whole midrange. The treble wasn't bad, but again a tad bit too bright for my comfort. The bass had a slight pillowy nature - where the subbass decay is less but the midbass notes have added body to make the slam slightly fatter and sound a bit more strong.

Because of all the above misgivings, I swore to myself that I would never get a Planar Dynamic IEM of serious value ($100+) as ultimately I will not be able to love it and will feel the money to be wasted. Although I have no idea if the high end planar dynamic iems suffer from the above, namely CA Supermoon. I will know if I can hear one, which does not seem to be soon. But anyway, I digress...

However, when the Gumiho came out, I was slightly interested. The SPD seems interesting, and the added BA for treble since the SPD is unable to handle treble region effectively somehow made me feel I might not hate it that much. The price point felt quite right as well. I contacted Celest in hope of being allowed to review one, and they were kind enough to send me a review unit.

When I put them on first with the provided cable, honestly, I was surprised and blown outta my wits. The midrange was vastly different than the previous planar iems - the notes have a very very nice amount of thickness - so much that initially, it did not feel unnatural at all. As time went on, I realised that the notes were lacking a bit of depth, and I started to notice the absence of the DD timbre very slightly, but honestly, I am just nitpicking here and overall it sounded pretty, pretty good. Despite the thickness, the midrange boasts a very high degree of transparency and a very clean background. The thickness adds a natural touch to the notes that sounds very welcoming to my ears.

The low end although had the same pillowy nature - slightly thick midbass slam and slightly fast subbass decay. The textures were quite good, throughout lows, mid, and highs. At least such bass sounds better than BA bass, because here the subbass rumbles still have comparatively better body.

Coming to the treble, well, since the day I became infatuated with DD, I started to not like BA much - but it mostly was centered on low and midrange. I always liked BA treble - they can have a sense of effortless details where the details are reproduced without making the notes sound forced or strained. However, in this process they can also make them sound a bit dull and the tonality might become a bit off - the way I felt it on Fiio FH5s, and Kinera Urd.
However, the BA treble of Gumiho does not seem to suffer from the negative aspects that much. That effortlessly detailed trait is very much present, along with an acceptable amount of brightness and the right kind of tonality to make them sound natural enough. This is where Gumiho differs from the pure planars like Timeless and S12 - with the latters the treble always felt a bit too striking and hot, with Gumiho I never felt uncomfortable, and yet not even once felt any detail was masked. Yep, it's unfailingly BA treble, but to my ears a quite pleasant one. However, I have to mention something here - with the stock SPC+Alloy Copper the treble was a bit too intense for me, hence I swapped it for a pure copper cable I generally use for on-the-go listening, and the result was fantastic. That is the one in the picture below.

However, not all can be said great about Gumiho, and the drawback is the stage. You see, Gumiho has a bit of forward and yet comfortable presentation - where the bass, mid, and treble all are equally emphasised, and hence the depth of the stage takes a hit here. Although the layering is pretty nice and so is the imaging, the stage is a bit flat. It extends very well in width and height, but not much in the depth - average at best. But oh well, for $50, I am not complaining.

Overall, I have an extremely positive initial impression of Celest Gumiho, and it will easy get 4.5 Star from me at $50 price point - a default recommendation.

 

[Redcarmoose]

First thing - I am not really fond of planar. I listened to the Timeless, and while the technical performance was quite nice, ultimately it failed to get my continued attention. Read about it here: https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/7hertz-timeless.25394/review/27416/

Now, basically what I do not like about planar is how the midrange notes sound a bit thin and lack a bit of depth. The details are well reproduced, no doubt, but the difference between the planar timbre and DD timbre changes the overall presentation. Timeless had it, S12 suffered from it. With them, the primary difference that I felt, (disclaimer: this is completely my very own opinion, and if you feel what I am spewing is pure bs and no such things exist, I'm not gonna defend myself, as I can not realistically make anyone experience what I am experiencing), that the base of the midrange notes did not have that much weight, the middle part of the note body was slightly thin but quite detailed, and the trailing edge was pretty good. That lightness of the base failed to add that last bit of realism to the notes, so they felt kinda wispy.
Apart from that, the upper midrange felt a bit of uneven and slightly harsh, bright obviously. There was a slight metallic sheen to the whole midrange. The treble wasn't bad, but again a tad bit too bright for my comfort. The bass had a slight pillowy nature - where the subbass decay is less but the midbass notes have added body to make the slam slightly fatter and sound a bit more strong.

Because of all the above misgivings, I swore to myself that I would never get a Planar Dynamic IEM of serious value ($100+) as ultimately I will not be able to love it and will feel the money to be wasted. Although I have no idea if the high end planar dynamic iems suffer from the above, namely CA Supermoon. I will now if I can hear one, which does not seem to be soon. But anyway, I digress...

However, when the Gumiho came out, I was slightly interested. The SPD seems interesting, and the added BA for treble since the SPD is unable to handle treble region effectively somehow made me feel I might not hate it that much. The price point felt quite right as well. I contacted Celest in hope of being allowed to review one, and they were kind enough to send me a review unit.

When I put them on first with the provided cable, honestly, I was surprised and blown outta my wits. The midrange was vastly different than the previous planar iems - the notes have a very very nice amount of thickness - so much that initially, it did not feel unnatural at all. As time went on, I realised that the notes were lacking a bit of depth, and I started to notice the absence of the DD timbre very slightly, but honestly, I am just nitpicking here and overall it sounded pretty, pretty good. Despite the thickness, the midrange boasts a very high degree of transparency and a very clean background. The thickness adds a natural touch to the notes that sounds very welcoming to my ears.

The low end although had the same pillowy nature - slightly thick midbass slam and slightly fast subbass decay. The textures were quite good, throughout lows, mid, and highs. At least such bass sounds better than BA bass, because here the subbass rumbles still have comparatively better body.

Coming to the treble, well, since the day I became infatuated with DD, I started to not like BA much - but it mostly was centered on low and midrange. I always liked BA treble - they can have a sense of effortless details where the details are reproduced without making the notes sound forced or strained. However, in this process they can also make them sound a bit dull and the tonality might become a bit off - the way I felt it on Fiio FH5s, and Kinera Urd.
However, the BA treble of Gumiho does not seem to suffer from the negative aspects that much. That effortlessly detailed trait is very much present, along with an acceptable amount of brightness and the right kind of tonality to make them sound natural enough. This is where Gumiho differs from the pure planars like Timeless and S12 - with the latters the treble always felt a bit too striking and hot, with Gumiho I never for once felt uncomfortable, and yet never for once felt any detail masked. Yep, it's unfailingly BA treble, but to my ears a quite pleasant one. However, I have to mention something here - with the stock SPC+Alloy Copper the treble was a bit too intense for me, hence I swapped it for a pure copper cable I generally use for on-the-go listening, and the result was fantastic. That is the one in the picture below.

However, not all can be said great about Gumiho, and the drawback is the stage. You see, Gumiho has a bit of forward and yet comfortable presentation - where the bass, mid, and treble all are equally emphasised, and hence the depth of the stage takes a hit here. Although the layering is pretty nice and so is the imaging, the stage is a bit flat. It extends very well in width and height, but not much in the depth - average at best. But oh well, for $50, I am not complaining.

Overall, I have an extremely positive initial impression of Celest Gumiho, and it will easy get 4.5 Star from me at $50 price point - a default recommendation.

Truly I wasn’t expecting the Gumiho to be as good as it was, but it’s an enveloping IEM. The added BA.....tones; actually I perceive the soundstage to be bigger than you, but I’m using wide-bore tips? Also I do also use a different cable, but that’s mainly to access 4.4mm. In a way the Timeless and S12 are stepping stones to this new planar future? I have not heard either, but have often read about their pluses and minuses. To me the Gumiho thrills due to the sound coming off relatively big, for such a little IEM, I simply can’t help but think the little Gumiho will fit everyone. Along with it’s low weight it owns a style of fitment, even though it appears to be a strange shape in the end.

 

[Ace Bee]

Truly I wasn’t expecting the Gumiho to be as good as it was, but it’s an enveloping IEM. The added BA.....tones; actually I perceive the soundstage to be bigger than you, but I’m using wide-bore tips? Also I do also use a different cable, but that’s mainly to access 4.4mm. In a way the Timeless and S12 are stepping stones to this new planar future? I have not heard either, but have often read about their pluses and minuses. To me the Gumiho thrills due to the sound coming off relatively big, for such a little IEM, I simply can’t help but think the little Gumiho will fit everyone.

Exactly this. Gumiho has such a wonderfully big and clean and refined sound, it's very hard not be pleased by it.

Truly I wasn’t expecting the Gumiho to be as good as it was, but it’s an enveloping IEM. The added BA.....tones; actually I perceive the soundstage to be bigger than you,

Well, the soundstage is big, but mostly in the height and width, and not so much in depth, although it is purely my own experience and your experience might very well vary. I have not tested it through balanced out yet.