The discovery thread!

[james444]

Quote:

Just received my pair of SHE3580s from Amazon.
 
Some initial impressions:
 

1. Isolation is pretty mediocre. Not really surprising considering how little there is to these. I would say they're on par with my CW31s, a little worse than the MEE M6.

 
Use high quality tips like the UE silicons and stuff some foamies underneath. That way I get decent isolation. The 3580's sound quality is worth the effort.


 
Quote:

Well and then you have stuff like the MP8320, EX600/1000 etc. which aren't exactly bass monsters and have huge drivers.

 
Neither are the SHE3580 bass monsters if you drive them from a flat source, they have good balance with only slighty enhanced bass. But they do scale nicely with EQing if you're a basshead.
 
Quote:

Dsnuts I believe you've got yourself some headline worthy impressions of the SHE3580 here

I agree, thanks to you both for the great find.

 
Now for something completely different... (opens Isurus package) 

 

[Selenium]

I wasn't trying to infer that they were bassmonsters. Just that Nuts should have realized before the Phillips that larger drivers don't mean MOAR BASS since he has the MP 8320 and EX600 both of which have huge drivers and a balanced sound-sig.

 
Have fun with your Isurus!

 

[ri_toast]

75 hours into the Isurus burn, amount of detail is VERY nice. still using the comply with the wax guard, which is small layer of foam over the nozzle. i really tried to improve these by eq in foobar, i couldn't find anything lacking or needing boost, i tend to run everything without enhancements anyway. i think any reasonable basshead could eq these into monsters if that is the goal.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

why couldn't I edit this post?

 

[Joe Bloggs]

If you're really into this, you could always go all out and tune a parametric EQ for them
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/587703/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-a-tutorial-part-2
 
Listening for resonant peaks using sine sweeps generated by Sinegen then equalizing them out with a parametric equalizer.  I haven't completed my part 2 guide, but plenty of people had great results just with PiccoloNamek's "part 1" guide.  PiccoloNamek himself found plenty to improve on his Stax in EQ.
 
(why are all my edits of the previous post not showing up?)

 

[pack21]

Quote:

75 hours into the Isurus burn, amount of detail is VERY nice. still using the comply with the wax guard, which is small layer of foam over the nozzle. i really tried to improve these by eq in foobar, i couldn't find anything lacking or needing boost, i tend to run everything without enhancements anyway. i think any reasonable basshead could eq these into monsters if that is the goal.

The tips you have are the Comply T100? fits well in the Isurus?

Because I was thinking in a sensorcom dual-flange, but someone with a SM3 told me, that may be, could be too narrow for this in-ear.
 
 
I'm looking for some good tips for Isurus.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

 
Quote:

If you're really into this, you could always go all out and tune a parametric EQ for them
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/587703/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-a-tutorial-part-2
 
Listening for resonant peaks using sine sweeps generated by Sinegen then equalizing them out with a parametric equalizer.  I haven't completed my part 2 guide, but plenty of people had great results just with PiccoloNamek's "part 1" guide.  PiccoloNamek himself found plenty to improve on his Stax in EQ.
 

Further to the above, I found so much to improve on the Philips SHE3580 that by the time I was done I didn't think these phones were worth recommending on their own, that these were the proverbial stone in the stone soup that is my sound system now.  It's only after Dsnuts promoted them and people responded positively that I realize these actually stand pretty high up the headphone ladder... for headphones not receiving a custom parametric EQ tweak.  For me, parametric EQ tweaked headphones just stand on their own ladder on a whole 'nother floor, with these EQ'ed SHE3580 probably standing as far higher than the best unEQed headphones on Earth as the Orpheus stands higher than the stock SHE3580.  Heck, it's not like I find the Etymotic ER-4P even worth listening to anymore without parametric EQ, either.
 
*You heard that right, I'm claiming a 2x stock SHE3580 to Orpheus improvement by parametric EQing the SHE3580... whatever that amount of improvement may be.
 
So the next time people hear me mouthing off about how awesome my parametric EQ'ed SHE3580 sound, don't take it as a slight against SHE3580's stock sound, take it as just an indication of how awesome PiccoloNamek's EQ method done right is.  (I made some of my own additional inventions that I haven't yet fully detailed in my Part 2 tutorial)
 
I know it's very technical and involved, but say the Orpheus can be had now for $15,000.  Now say you rate your time as worth $100/hr. (that's a lot if you ask me).  I just told you the sound improvement is 2 Orpheus' worth of sound, which would be worth $30,000.  That means it would be worth your time to figure out parametric equalization even if it takes you 300 solid hours to do so!  For me I'd say it took 24 hours, and I'll be sharing more of my discoveries with you when I have time!
 
(there's a good reason this is so--those resonant peaks caused by covering your ears with a pair of headphones aren't going away, no matter how much you pay for your headphones.  And those resonant peaks change in frequency and amplitude with the model of headphone used, how you wear them and, in the case of IEMs, the size and type of tips you use to put them on.  So even God himself won't be able to tune a pair of headphones to have perfect sound out of the box for you.  Or He could, for YOU only.  Now who at Sennheiser or Westone or wherever would do that for you and nobody else??)
 
The good news is, these Philips SHE3580 have great sound quality out of the box, and great bass and treble extension, so they will do all parts of the frequency spectrum justice without distortion as you tune that parametric EQ.  And they will take you a significant way up that ladder on the second floor, that hierarchy of sound quality of headphones with custom-tuned parametric EQ.  By the time my Etymotic ER-4Ps broke again, I'd gotten around to tuning those to sound very good too, but I hadn't gotten to tune them to sound BETTER than the $10 SHE3580 yet.

 

[Varley]

@Dsnuts
 
Man, you have a talent for finding these things, my Philips SHE3581's came today, along with my ZO Rev 3 and I am now enjoying this set up more than I've been enjoying my other IEM's - I don't know if it's because I know they're so cheap that It impresses me even more when they are almost 80% of the technical capability of £100+... 
I wonder why I still keep my more expensive things - Thing is, I'm not even joking, to my ears these are incredibly impressive

Scary stuff.
 
The Isurus should be here soon, man, thanks

 

[roark37]

Joe Bloggs, interesting post about eq but I have what may be a very naive question:  would home speakers/stereo benefit from eq in a similar way that you describe for headphones?  I have tried to improve my home system in the last year mainly by trying a couple of different speakers but nothing has really worked in a significant way. It is a tough room with cathedral ceiling and cutouts which I think are a big part of the problem.  Do you think eq could potentially make a large improvement?  Thanks.

 

[roark37]

 
 
Quote:

There seems to be more and more choices now a days for good to great sounding budget stuff.. That is only good news for all of us.. The way cheaper stuff sounds now a days. Other manufacturers gotta take note and deliver more for the dollar now a days and again that only means we win with more and better choices.
 
Those tips can be kinda hard to put on but not too bad once you get it. I have been busy finishing up the year at my business. Once I get some time I will work on a budget fi earphone comparison and you guys will be the first to see it.. I figure I would let you guys discover these all here first. In any case both these iems represent some of the best money can purchase at the moment for cheaper great sounding stuff.  Iems such as the XePort 3010 and the 5010 are also worth getting and add to the fact that these 2 can be bought for less than $30 on their web site which ships from San Diego makes it a good deal for anyone in the US.
 
I think there is probably a lot of rebranding going on that we aren't aware of. The XePorts for example look just like MEElectronics earphones..They are probably using the same drivers as well but with different tweeks to them..If any of you guys think you found one the community should know about. By all means let everyone know about them or you can contact me and I can certainly give a listen. It is all about the discovery and there is a lot out there that we are just not aware of I bet.

Edited by Dsnuts - Yesterday at 9:51 pm

 
Thanks Dsnuts and look forward to the budget fi comparison.   A couple of follow ups though:  I have the small tips now on the SHE3580 and have shoved them way in and although I am getting okay sound nothing like the bass or sound quality that others describe.  So since I am new to iem's I suspect I still have the fit not quite right.  As a comparison are you familiar with the JVC HAS160?  If so that has way more bass and overall sound quality to me than the Phillips.  That is an on the ear versus iem but if I had the proper fit would that seem right?  By the way I don't know if you have heard them or recommended them but if not I think those HAS160 should be your next "value" choice.  I think they can be bought for $12 or less and I prefer them over many I have tried which were much more expensive.  Thanks again.
 

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Speakers?  You can do better than EQ.  You can measure the impulse response of your speakers using a reference microphone and deconvolve the impulse response to cancel out all room effects at your listening sweet spot.  The result could be equivalent to thousands of dollars spent on room treatment.  I haven't done this myself since I don't have a speaker system good enough to do it on, but looking up "impulse measurement microphone" and "deconvolution" on google would point you in the right direction, I think.  You could try posting the question on the hydrogenaudio.org forums too, they have some very technically proficient people there.  Alternatively, I gather that some home theatre surround amplifiers carrry a limited form of this functionality in that you can buy measurement microphones for use with them, use them at your listening sweet spot and they will calculate some compensation parameters automatically.  What those compensations are I don't know; maybe it is indeed parametric equalization.
 
edit:  after some more reading I'm not sure that the home theatre amplifier auto-calibration does anything more than volume matching between different speakers at the sweet spot.  You're welcome to do your own research.  As for the SHE3580.  Try different tips and try pulling the right ear back with your left hand (from behind the head) while pushing in the right bud with your right hand, and vice versa for the left bud.  These should have enough bass for everybody and no bass is the first sign of a bad fit.
 
*if you want to discuss those speakers more, perhaps open a thread in the Computer Audio forum and post a link here?  That would be the most appropriate forum to expand on what you're asking.

 

[Dsnuts]

Quote:

 
 
 
Thanks Dsnuts and look forward to the budget fi comparison.   A couple of follow ups though:  I have the small tips now on the SHE3580 and have shoved them way in and although I am getting okay sound nothing like the bass or sound quality that others describe.  So since I am new to iem's I suspect I still have the fit not quite right.  As a comparison are you familiar with the JVC HAS160?  If so that has way more bass and overall sound quality to me than the Phillips.  That is an on the ear versus iem but if I had the proper fit would that seem right?  By the way I don't know if you have heard them or recommended them but if not I think those HAS160 should be your next "value" choice.  I think they can be bought for $12 or less and I prefer them over many I have tried which were much more expensive.  Thanks again.
 

I have to agree with your assessment of the HAS160. Not too many guys know about this little portable that can. It is a correct sounding portable headphone that has a complete sound. They are indeed a crazy little headphone. I think JVC as a company has some very nice stuff that many over look. I can name a few. JVC earphones. The HAFX1X, The HAFXC51,  Headphones JVC HAS160, HAS600, HAM740. .Just to name a few. All of them are cheaper but give a lot in sound and value.
 
The Philips SHE3580 or any in ear stuff needs correct fit and it is something you will have to get used to. I know guys that have never had in ear stuff don't like the feeling of them but once you get used to it. They will become more comfy than you can imagine. Now as for fit. I think you are not getting the right seal. I am wondering if you will benefit from other tips. Try the medium sized tip again and see if you can get them to sound correct. We had this same issue with a few of the fellas on my MP 8320 thread. If you don't get proper seal on these they will sound very treble happy and bass light. If that describes your sound you are getting I bet you. You aren't getting a proper placement in your ear. Going into this thread I thought there is no way anyone can't get a proper seal on this one as the buds are so tinny.  For you my friend I wouldn't bother trying the Isurus or the Mp 8320 as both are bigger by a mile. 
Quote:

@Dsnuts
 
Man, you have a talent for finding these things, my Philips SHE3581's came today, along with my ZO Rev 3 and I am now enjoying this set up more than I've been enjoying my other IEM's - I don't know if it's because I know they're so cheap that It impresses me even more when they are almost 80% of the technical capability of £100+... 
I wonder why I still keep my more expensive things - Thing is, I'm not even joking, to my ears these are incredibly impressive

Scary stuff.
 
The Isurus should be here soon, man, thanks

And ultimately that is what its all about. Enjoying your tunes..Try out other tips on the isurus and burn away.
 
So I threw up this pic earlier and I will do it again to give a clue to getting a better tip on the Isurus I am using the one on the right. The one on the left is what the stock one looks like. You can see how the right one the sound is funneled through the smaller hole. This balances the sound completely..Try out different tips. I noticed the Monster foam and gels don't work well on the isurus. The Sony hybrids are better but the tip on the right was the best I have found so far for my isurus. The one on the right is just a step smaller than the sony hybrids sound hole wise. .
 

 

[Joe Bloggs]

The SHE3580 aren't bass light and I have graphs to prove it!
 
And, it's nice that the Tt Isurus has so many AT phones waiting in line to adopt it as its twin brother, I thought the SHE3580 by contrast was a little lonely

 
Of course these probably aren't clones of anything (more likely for them themselves to be cloned by somebody we don't know) but here's an interesting comparison someone put up at goldenears.net:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ko&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fgoldenears.net%2Fboard%2F859696
 

In red and blue is the two channels of the SHE3580;  in grey and black are the average measurement of the Sennheiser IE8 with adjustable bass at max and min respectively.)
 
(I superimposed the two graphs and changed the colour to make it more distinguishable;  also the IE8 graph has vertical scale of 6dB / mark while the SHE3580 graph is 5dB / mark, so I stretched the IE8 graph 20% to match the scale and aligned the two graphs to intersect at 1kHz.)
 
Make of this what you will--but I hear the Sennheiser IE8 are a flagship-class bassy IEM marred by too much midbass, whereas the SHE3580 seems to have... less midbass and more subbass.

 

[james444]

Quote:

 

Further to the above, I found so much to improve on the Philips SHE3580 that by the time I was done I didn't think these phones were worth recommending on their own, that these were the proverbial stone in the stone soup that is my sound system now.  It's only after Dsnuts promoted them and people responded positively that I realize these actually stand pretty high up the headphone ladder... for headphones not receiving a custom parametric EQ tweak.  For me, parametric EQ tweaked headphones just stand on their own ladder on a whole 'nother floor, with these EQ'ed SHE3580 probably standing as far higher than the best unEQed headphones on Earth as the Orpheus stands higher than the stock SHE3580.  Heck, it's not like I find the Etymotic ER-4P even worth listening to anymore without parametric EQ, either.
 
*You heard that right, I'm claiming a 2x stock SHE3580 to Orpheus improvement by parametric EQing the SHE3580... whatever that amount of improvement may be.
 
So the next time people hear me mouthing off about how awesome my parametric EQ'ed SHE3580 sound, don't take it as a slight against SHE3580's stock sound, take it as just an indication of how awesome PiccoloNamek's EQ method done right is.  (I made some of my own additional inventions that I haven't yet fully detailed in my Part 2 tutorial)
 
I know it's very technical and involved, but say the Orpheus can be had now for $15,000.  Now say you rate your time as worth $100/hr. (that's a lot if you ask me).  I just told you the sound improvement is 2 Orpheus' worth of sound, which would be worth $30,000.  That means it would be worth your time to figure out parametric equalization even if it takes you 300 solid hours to do so!  For me I'd say it took 24 hours, and I'll be sharing more of my discoveries with you when I have time!
 
(there's a good reason this is so--those resonant peaks caused by covering your ears with a pair of headphones aren't going away, no matter how much you pay for your headphones.  And those resonant peaks change in frequency and amplitude with the model of headphone used, how you wear them and, in the case of IEMs, the size and type of tips you use to put them on.  So even God himself won't be able to tune a pair of headphones to have perfect sound out of the box for you.  Or He could, for YOU only.  Now who at Sennheiser or Westone or wherever would do that for you and nobody else??)
 
The good news is, these Philips SHE3580 have great sound quality out of the box, and great bass and treble extension, so they will do all parts of the frequency spectrum justice without distortion as you tune that parametric EQ.  And they will take you a significant way up that ladder on the second floor, that hierarchy of sound quality of headphones with custom-tuned parametric EQ.  By the time my Etymotic ER-4Ps broke again, I'd gotten around to tuning those to sound very good too, but I hadn't gotten to tune them to sound BETTER than the $10 SHE3580 yet.

Contrary to a lot of other members here, I'm not opposed to EQing, as long as it's done with a high quality implementation, which is quite rare in DAPs btw. But you're taking your claims a bit too far imo. There are basic characteristics in IEMs and headphones that simply can't be changed via EQ, like detail resolution or attack/decay transients, just to name a few. So there's an inherent limit to what you can gain by EQing. That said, I agree the SHE3580 do a lot of things right even out-of-box, so EQing may just be the icing on the cake.

 

[roark37]

Joe Bloggs, thanks again and I'll look more into eq and that forum you recommended for it.
 
Dsnuts, as far as the JVC HAS160 in the past year I have tried to better them with the Audio Technica ATH-AD700, Koss UR-40, and JVC HAS600, but all were returned as I like the HAS160 straight up much better than all of them.  I know for the ATH-AD700 that may seem really hard to believe and I was very surprised as well as from all the great reviews and descriptions I thought I would love it but it definitely was not for me.  I can't really say about the JVC HAS600 sound quality as I got it hoping it would be a step up from HAS160 but I never even got to that as I found it way too uncomfortable with the heavy clamping so it just was not for me.  I wish the HAS160 had more detail but I really think many that have not heard them would be surprised how "full" sounding and easy to listen to they are.  And especially so for the low price.  I am considering trying Panasonic RP-HTX7 next.  Thanks again.