RAZ's TOTL review and rambles thread, on life support
Jun 2, 2021 at 11:04 AM Post #2,221 of 3,674
If people let a price tag dictate what they perceive to be “good” then that’s their own problem/fault.

Well it doesn't help that literally every trend in marketing and hype serves to feed this perception-- and further it's just true enough ("You get what you pay for" is one of the truest maxims in all of consumerdom) that it's hard to call into question. In my experience improvements are fairly consistent up to about ~$1.5K following which diminishing returns kick in majorly and most improvements tend to be highly specialized to specific tastes. Thus perhaps unsurprisingly some of the most divisive models (Fourte, Thummim, Sultan, Infinity MK iii etc.) are also the most expensive.
 
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Jun 2, 2021 at 11:15 AM Post #2,222 of 3,674
I think to a certain degree it's because those reactions are very much one-dimensional, so those who make that argument are a little tired of it. There are only so many times one can say "that's far too expensive" before we get bored of our own opinion, let alone anyone else taking it into account.
On top of this, the replies are also predictable. "Oh but if you sold your three most expensive IEMs you'd easily be able to afford this latest and greatest IEM!!!" Well yes, and if I didn't eat breakfast and lunch, I could afford a very fancy dinner, but that wouldn't stop the dinner being overpriced.
The discussion becomes terribly circular.

The underlying "zinger" always seems to be "well I want the best sound, so I'm happy with this TOTL IEM at $6k." Well great, that's nice. But almost everyone in here wants the best sound they can get - that's why we aren't happy just listening to bundled transducers and mass-market "boom-tish" ones (some mass market ones are excellent, this isn't a swipe at the whole mass-market). Everyone's here for the same reason, but not everyone can afford the best (indeed there are probably many who can afford it, but the price has gone past what they might consider their own point of principle maximum.)

So while I totally get what you mean, I don't think everyone has just accepted this new normal. I can only speak for myself here, but I haven't accepted it, what I've accepted is that I operate at a level below this elite tier.

Some may consider that ridiculous considering some of the IEMs I own - I'm very grateful to have my collection (which in itself is ridiculous and totally unnecessary)
But the alternative is to sell them and buy into a price range I'm simply not comfortable with. That's my own choice though. For me, the pleasure of hearing the same album on the LX one day and the Sultan the next is an alluring call, and one I value over the (equally valid) "one to rule them all" that many also prefer.

Arguing over the price of it, though, has become a thankless and soul-destroying task
‘Very, very fair points. For me, my comment on the lack of backlash wasn’t necessarily a wish that people started raging and winging at these sorts of prices again. I’d much rather have the passive reaction you proposed; “I can’t afford it, so I’ll just let it go.” It’s more so an observation of how much of that has now changed - not only into a passive blasé, but, in some cases, to enthusiasm or anticipation - which may prove to be dangerous messaging.

But, as you said, and it’s the reason why I wanted to pull my reply to @gLer’s post pages ago: This ultimately is all a hypothetical. Like I said, this is all only bad if I think the worst of other brands, if the dystopian version of this does come true and it eventually does catch on. Otherwise, it boils down to simple musings. But, I think expressing a thought isn’t necessarily thankless or soul-destroying. Ultimately, it is a conversation, and it’ll be something to look back on - either with irony or gloom - once the future does unfold.

I also think the reason why I’m more fired-up about it than I usual is because I’ve seen it is possible to put your best foot forward without hiking up your prices. The Jolene is the example I’m gonna use again, because I can’t come up with much else. I wish that that’s used as more of an argument than the inevitability sentiments, which are more popular.

I've been reading this discussion and this is especially interesting to me and definitely confirms (at least in this one case) something I have been wondering about.

The prices of these products seem like they are much much more about their perceived space in the market rather than necessarily just about the technology or the r&d that went into creating it.

The general sentiment on the forums too is almost always that the more expensive iems are just better (not actually always of course). There's obviously an expectation that if you are spending big bucks, you expect the best. And nobody ever wants to believe or admit that an expensive purchase may be anything less than perfect.

And it brings me back to the trailli that I find myself extremely skeptical of the claims that it's somehow noticeably "better" than anything else out there on the market. I haven't heard it so I obviously can't actually say. But I find myself thinking that while it may be an excellent iem, the hype almost certainly has to be in part due to the price.

Based on the driver count and tech, and shell material/construction/design, there's nothing in there that even remotely seems to command that $6k price compared to many other things in the market. So does the rest of the price come from tuning or intangibles or is a good chunk of it just to set it's place in the market and create the perception that it's somehow ultra high end and immediately better than things priced less.

Obviously not a statement on the actual quality or sound since I haven't heard them. And I know the trailli owners would all tell me I'm wrong and that I need to hear them to understand. And while I personally can't possibly imagine them being worth the asking price, obviously there are plenty out there who do think they are worth it. And that will drive the trend forward. And like you, it's a bit worrying that I think we are going to see more and more ultra high priced iems that at least on the surface don't actually push the envelope in terms of what they are offering other than that perceived place in the market. But I should also say that my experience in this hobby and market is also limited mostly to just what I see here on the forums, which is admittedly a limited viewpoint.

Of course, if people find value in them then it's only smart for the companies to price their products at what the market will accept.
The first bit of your post is something I touched on months ago on the Flinkenick thread. Like I said there, I’ve been told by the people behind audio brands that a lot of pricing is done by the expectation of performance. The higher you want people to think of your product than the competition, the higher you’ll tend to price it. One thing that must be made clear though, is that this often isn’t done (or, at least that’s what they tell me) with malicious or deceitful intent.

Although this can be spun as, “Oh, so they’re pricing these flagships because they want me to think they’re awesome,” it is admittedly important to look at the brand’s POV: “If I don’t price these in the same tier as the other flagships, then my flagship will run the risk of being ignored.” Do I necessarily agree with that sentiment? No. I think that’s what a community like Head-Fi and reviewers are for; highlighting the cream that deserves to rise to the top. But, at the end of the day, it is the method with the greatest chance of success, so I don’t see it changing anytime soon.

The question now is will brands aim towards the Trailli and Mason’s performance and price, now that a market for that exists? Or, will they aim for their performance, but keep prices where they are to keep the competition alive?

Speaking of King Arthur, I heard that’s actually a good IEM but I can’t for the life of me remember where I even read that. Seems to be a super elusive IEM to find just about any information on.
So far, the only comments I’ve seen on it have been from the Singaporean crowd, including guys like Crinacle. I believe he covered it on his thread/site. I’ve actually had the opposite experience, where all I’ve seen about it has been pretty negative. I think the common consensus is that it’s too dark or thick-sounding. But, it’s a small sample size at the end of the day (and one that doesn’t tend to prefer richer sigs too), so the jury is probably still out.
 
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Jun 2, 2021 at 11:22 AM Post #2,223 of 3,674
So far, the only comments I’ve seen on it have been from the Singaporean crowd, including guys like Crinacle. I believe he covered it on his thread/site. I’ve actually had the opposite experience, where all I’ve seen about it has been pretty negative. I think the common consensus is that it’s too dark or thick-sounding. But, it’s a small sample size at the end of the day, so the jury is probably still out.
I believe there are two versions - the initial one was the one rumoured to be an EE/EA collaboration and the one that tanked pretty hard (I heard it in Hong Kong and can't remember anything about it, which isn't a good look for a $7k IEM).
The latest iteration seems to have more positive reviews though - this one I personally know very little about, but I'm sure someone in here has some input
 
Jun 2, 2021 at 11:23 AM Post #2,224 of 3,674
‘Very, very fair points. For me, my comment on the lack of backlash wasn’t necessarily a wish that people started raging and winging at these sorts of prices again. I’d much rather have the passive reaction you proposed; “I can’t afford it, so I’ll just let it go.” It’s more so an observation of how much of that has now changed - not only into a passive blasé, but, in some cases, to enthusiasm or anticipation - which may prove to be dangerous messaging.

But, as you said, and it’s the reason why I wanted to pull my reply to @gLer’s post pages ago: This ultimately is all a hypothetical. Like I said, this is all only bad if I think the worst of other brands, if the dystopian version of this does come true and it eventually does catch on. Otherwise, it boils down to simple musings. But, I think expressing a thought isn’t necessarily thankless or soul-destroying. Ultimately, it is a conversation, and it’ll be something to look back on - either with irony or gloom - once the future does unfold.

I also think the reason why I’m more fired-up about it than I usual is because I’ve seen it is possible to put your best foot forward without hiking up your prices. The Jolene is the example I’m gonna use again, because I can’t come up with much else. I wish that that’s used as more of an argument than the inevitability sentiments, which are more popular.


The first bit of your post is something I touched on months ago on the Flinkenick thread. Like I said there, I’ve been told by the people behind audio brands that a lot of pricing is done by the expectation of performance. The higher you want people to think of your product than the competition, the higher you’ll tend to price it. One thing that must be made clear though, is that this often isn’t done (or, at least that’s what they tell me) with malicious or deceitful intent.

Although this can be spun as, “Oh, so they’re pricing these flagships because they want me to think they’re awesome,” it is admittedly important to look at the brand’s POV: “If I don’t price these in the same tier as the other flagships, than my flagship will run the risk of being ignored.” Do I necessarily agree with that sentiment? No. I think that’s what a community like Head-Fi and reviewers are for; highlighting the cream that deserves to rise to the top. But, at the end of the day, it is the method with the greatest chance of success, so I don’t see it changing anytime soon.

The question now is will brands aim towards the Trailli and Mason’s performance and price, now that a market for that exists? Or, will they aim for their performance, but keep prices where they are to keep the competition alive?


So far, the only comments I’ve seen on it have been from the Singaporean crowd, including guys like Crinacle. I believe he covered it on his thread/site. I’ve actually had the opposite experience, where all I’ve seen about it has been pretty negative. I think the common consensus is that it’s too dark or thick-sounding. But, it’s a small sample size at the end of the day, so the jury is probably still out.

Man you are right. I forgot Crin did hear it. Do you know if the same version that is for sale now is the same one he heard? I thought I remember reading somewhere it was tweaked but I’m not too sure about that.
 
Jun 2, 2021 at 11:23 AM Post #2,225 of 3,674
Realistically, arguing over prices achieves nothing. The IEM market will ultimately be driven by the consumers. A product can only be falsely hyped by reviewers and/or influencers to a certain extent before the “real” consumers truly decide if a product is worth its asking price.

If it’s a good product, and consumers see value in it and are happy to pay the asking price, it will sell. If it isn’t a good product, the hype will wear off.

Clearly there are enough people out there that consider Traillii to be worth it’s asking price at this point in time. The people out there buying $6k IEM’s aren’t your average consumers. In most cases, they would be enthusiasts that already have a strong understanding of the current market offerings.

If another IEM manufacturer comes along and offers a product that outperforms it at a better price, these consumers will move on. I know I certainly will. There will be ebbs and flows in prices depending on the competition and saturation of this particular niche of the IEM market.
 
Jun 2, 2021 at 11:27 AM Post #2,226 of 3,674
I believe there are two versions - the initial one was the one rumoured to be an EE/EA collaboration and the one that tanked pretty hard (I heard it in Hong Kong and can't remember anything about it, which isn't a good look for a $7k IEM).
The latest iteration seems to have more positive reviews though - this one I personally know very little about, but I'm sure someone in here has some input
Man you are right. I forgot Crin did hear it. Do you know if the same version that is for sale now is the same one he heard? I thought I remember reading somewhere it was tweaked but I’m not too sure about that.
Oh, I wasn’t aware that there’s another version. I don’t know what the read is on that one.

Realistically, arguing over prices achieves nothing. The IEM market will ultimately be driven by the consumers. A product can only be falsely hyped by reviewers and/or influencers to a certain extent before the “real” consumers truly decide if a product is worth its asking price.

If it’s a good product, and consumers see value in it and are happy to pay the asking price, it will sell. If it isn’t a good product, the hype will wear off.

Clearly there are enough people out there that consider Traillii to be worth it’s asking price at this point in time. The people out there buying $6k IEM’s aren’t your average consumers. In most cases, they would be enthusiasts that already have a strong understanding of the current market offerings.

If another IEM manufacturer comes along and offers a product that outperforms it at a better price, these consumers will move on. I know I certainly will. There will be ebbs and flows in prices depending on the competition and saturation of this particular niche of the IEM market.
Your summary of this discussion actually reminds me of the Gamaliel story in the Book of Acts, and it’s a very good point at that. :)
 
Jun 2, 2021 at 12:52 PM Post #2,227 of 3,674
I have been looking at the discussion for a good time now !! For some one who joined the hobby like last 2 years earlier and made the Headfi account like just now..., i have been seeing the prices of iems go beyond what should be haha !!
Even this is going to go same as watch market !!
Given that i have just used very few iems like MEST 2 and VE6XC like just recently and own just Shozy POLA, going above this i think will be a point where i wont be able to even pay for rent or buy a new car haha !!
Hopefully new companies bring out new tech for iems and everything else at a LOWER cost... upto a certain limit is fine but 6k $ I am getting scared getting into this hobby :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
 
Jun 2, 2021 at 1:32 PM Post #2,228 of 3,674
One of the greatest anime plot twists of all time. :D I just personally admire the mentality they're showing with the Jolene, which is, "How can we appropriately price this to disrupt the market?" rather than, "How high can we push this and still have people buy it?" Perhaps, it's a luxury or privilege that's afforded by their massive success in the pro scene. They don't feel as much pressure to be the top dogs in the enthusiast market, so they can afford to make moves like that. But, man, imagine the market if every brand thought that way. Rather than constantly having to, as @gLer put it, justify their exponentially rising costs, they're all competing to price their new tech or, more so, their improved tuning techniques lower and lower instead.

I second this, hopefully, their pricing strategy is profoundly successful.
 
Jun 3, 2021 at 1:23 AM Post #2,229 of 3,674
Your summary of this discussion actually reminds me of the Gamaliel story in the Book of Acts, and it’s a very good point at that. :)
Not too familiar with Acts, so I had to pull that up and the commentary.

The wisdom is there, but I have to say that we humans don't exactly always make the most rational decisions based on the facts as presented.

Making irrational decisions in spite of the facts tends to happen more than we'd like to admit, and it becomes a hill to die on. Akin to the use of polemics in apologetics but I digress.

To put in my 2 cents on @Damz87 post, I would say "yes, but..." in a bigger market prices would tend to correct themselves. Iems though, at the end of a day are a very niche market and this kind of correction, if it happens is slow to take.
 
Jun 3, 2021 at 7:41 AM Post #2,230 of 3,674
I will apologize about a bit of negativity about the Traillii. When considering my recent purchase of Odin it came across my radar. I just can’t get by it’s low end build looks. Even with a custom colour faceplate it doesn’t reach the looks of the Khan which is the worst build of my collection. EE makes beautiful shells imho. A64 also has a great build although in metal. I had to bypass even though it probably has the best sound.
 
Jun 3, 2021 at 7:58 AM Post #2,231 of 3,674
I will apologize about a bit of negativity about the Traillii. When considering my recent purchase of Odin it came across my radar. I just can’t get by it’s low end build looks. Even with a custom colour faceplate it doesn’t reach the looks of the Khan which is the worst build of my collection. EE makes beautiful shells imho. A64 also has a great build although in metal. I had to bypass even though it probably has the best sound.
I love EE build quality myself but in defence of the Bird it looks and feels much better in person than in photos. Let's just say it's not the most photogenic IEM. Stick an onyx black custom shell on it like the LX, though, and I think you'll have a very different visual impression.
 
Jun 3, 2021 at 8:08 AM Post #2,232 of 3,674
I wouldn't be as confident handling the bird or my Hero as I am with my Andro or VxV. Hero is very light which is great but also feels fragile. I'm yet to experience a wood/resin shell, this should feel more premium than a full acrylic build.
 
Jun 3, 2021 at 8:23 AM Post #2,234 of 3,674
I wouldn't be as confident handling the bird or my Hero as I am with my Andro or VxV. Hero is very light which is great but also feels fragile. I'm yet to experience a wood/resin shell, this should feel more premium than a full acrylic build.
Oh for sure, I handle LX with kid gloves. These resin shells MUST NOT be dropped. Whereas the 64 Audio metal shells are far more resilient. Then again these are $2K+ IEMs so very careful handling and meticulous care goes without saying. None of these are throw-on-desk or in-bag or in-pocket IEMs!
 
Jun 3, 2021 at 8:25 AM Post #2,235 of 3,674
I wouldn't be as confident handling the bird or my Hero as I am with my Andro or VxV. Hero is very light which is great but also feels fragile. I'm yet to experience a wood/resin shell, this should feel more premium than a full acrylic build.
Living with a dog means everything I own has to be able to take a punch or two lol. I can't count the times he's been too excited to see me, jumped up, and yanked the Iliad attached to some poor IEM with that fat paw of his, smashing it into the ground... I am pretty familiar with the repair policies of most manufacturers :D
 

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