Orthodynamic Roundup

[GREQ]

 
What, they're not bright at all, they're literally the darkest orthodynamic ever made, just look at the FR chart, the treble is down 30dB by 10kHz:
 

Have you actually heard them?

 

[BucketInABucket]

  Have you actually heard them?

I would assume not as they're so rare. Most people go by other people's opinion when talking about these.

 

[Armaegis]

  Yes, way. If this were false then there would be absolutely no benefit to thinner substrates and the LCD-3 would sound exactly like the LCD-2.

 

  If you really think I'm wrong, enlighten me.
 
My understanding of it is that simply, excursion is the movement of the diaphragm. The electric signal passed through the voice coil causes movement when immersed in a magnetic field. Since the driver is clamped at the edges, the diaphragm flexes, causing a trampoline-like movement. Having a higher thickness to size ratio should adversely affect how much the diaphragm can flex and thus how far it can excurse. 

 
 

Originally Posted by takato14 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Assuming the measurements are accurate, I suspect that the miniscule driver has such low excursion that they can't even come close to producing proper treble.
 
 

 
 
Wow those are some very broad sweeping statements and false conclusions about something that you have once again misunderstood. As gurubhai mentioned, the thickness has more to do with the weight/inertia/etc. The lighter is it, the more responsive it can be. Technically yes, a thinner substrate could flex/stretch more, but not significantly, and the mechanical effects of that are going to be dwarfed by the tension anyways in a driver that has that.
 
You don't need "excursion" for treble. Quite the opposite in fact. A small driver should have no problem with treble but difficulty producing bass. Sound levels are a function of energy transfer via pressure waves. These are primarily a function of the "excursion", the area, and the frequency. Since the first two don't change that much, we can see that significantly more energy can be transferred as frequency goes up. That's why tweeters can be tiny while woofers are two orders of magnitude larger. Granted I'm ignoring the effects of cabinet/cup/damping/etc design which uses geometry and other witchcraft to tune output.

 

[leeperry]

  A small driver should have no problem with treble but difficulty producing bass.

 
How do you explain that the 38mm YHD serie is so bassy then? Even Yamie gave up on their 55mm drivers and made clear in the YHD brochures that those 38mm drivers are as good as orthos were at the time.  Wualta also said that the the smaller a driver, the lower the THD and all associated physical problems.
 
Of course the very large and heavy LCD2 drivers would supposedly be bass monsters, but the bigger a driver the more troubles there would be FR-wise?

 

[takato14]

  Excursion has nothing to do with the properties of a diaphragm, its merely a function of the push/pull force applied on the membrane. One can lift a stone to the same height regardless of its weight, provided one has enough muscle power.Regardless of its thickness/weight, all diaphragms would manage the desired excursion if you power it adequately.
 
The benefits of a thinner diaphragm are due to it having lesser inertia and greater agility. Its ability to accelerate suddenly, reach the desired point, turn back just as quickly and then return back to the original position. A thicker/heavier diaphragm would find it much more difficult to manage.

Does this only apply to planars? The Z7 has an extremely "agile" driver, very fast attack and decay, and it has a large and extremely heavy membrane due to the palladium coating on the diaphragm. 
 

  Wow those are some very broad sweeping statements and false conclusions about something that you have once again misunderstood. As gurubhai mentioned, the thickness has more to do with the weight/inertia/etc. The lighter is it, the more responsive it can be. Technically yes, a thinner substrate could flex/stretch more, but not significantly, and the mechanical effects of that are going to be dwarfed by the tension anyways in a driver that has that.
 
You don't need "excursion" for treble. Quite the opposite in fact. A small driver should have no problem with treble but difficulty producing bass. Sound levels are a function of energy transfer via pressure waves. These are primarily a function of the "excursion", the area, and the frequency. Since the first two don't change that much, we can see that significantly more energy can be transferred as frequency goes up. That's why tweeters can be tiny while woofers are two orders of magnitude larger. Granted I'm ignoring the effects of cabinet/cup/damping/etc design which uses geometry and other witchcraft to tune output.

I'd ask you not to be rude, but that'd be a bit hypocritical of me, so I'll abstain.
 
It appears I have indeed made a mistake. The membrane thickness relative to the size of the transducer most certainly does play a part in treble reproduction, but not because it's adversely affecting the excursion. I had the right idea but I was misinformed as to the reason. Thank you for correcting me.
 
Ok...
 
Back on topic: Who snatched that pretty little bugger? 

 

[Armaegis]

I was speaking in generalities obviously. Individual drivers will vary, plus as I mentioned there's cup geometry and damping which affects sound immensely. But basic physics still applies when we look at the general case: tweeters don't need much size or displacement to produce loud pressure levels, contrary to what takato was trying to say. Oh sure if you shove a bunch of damping around it that changes things, just like configuring a cup and baffle into a bass reflex port will likewise affect things.
 
Yes a smaller driver should in theory be easier to control and thus have less distortion. Smaller surface area, easier to maintain a more uniform surface and/or less surface breakup/nodes/voodooandgremlins. The magnetic fields are not perfectly even across the entire surface. The electrical field generated by the tracings is likewise not perfect. The bigger the surface, the more these imperfections may come into play. Plus a big surface is more likely to have natural nodes across it's surface that may fall within the audible spectrum and/or mess with the sound being produced.
 
Yadda yadda.

 

[Armaegis]

@takato14
I wasn't intending to be rude, but I admit to being very frustrated at your recent posts
 
I noticed you edited out some other stuff so I'll refrain from specific comments... but I do want to note that while it's commendable that you're attempting to correlate hearing with measurements and specifications, some of the conclusions that you are drawing are off the mark. Correlation does not equate to causation, and in a few instances it stems from a misunderstanding of the principles of how the devices work. This in itself isn't a problem, we're all learning after all, but you are particularly adamant in your viewpoints and posit them as absolutes which is what bugs the rest of us.

 

[dBel84]

Having heard both the YH1000 and YH5M, I would say they sound remarkably similar to one another. Essentially if you like the yamaha sound, you will like these. 

 

[Hutnicks]

  Having heard both the YH1000 and YH5M, I would say they sound remarkably similar to one another. Essentially if you like the yamaha sound, you will like these. 

How does the fit interact with the sound on the 5M?. That headband has always fascinated me. Arguably one of the slickest designs ever.

 

[takato14]

 

  Having heard both the YH1000 and YH5M, I would say they sound remarkably similar to one another. Essentially if you like the yamaha sound, you will like these. 

How does the fit interact with the sound on the 5M?. That headband has always fascinated me. Arguably one of the slickest designs ever.

Yes, please tell. It doesn't seem like it really needs the headband from a design point given that its an IEM, but it could offer several unusual ways to wear them, that's for sure.

 

[dBel84]

It is not an iem - it really needs the headband. ( which is an engineering marvel - just amazing ) The little arm that holds the ear piece pivots down to bring the tip into contact with the ear canal. The ear piece has that acoustic chamber that can be detached - this allows for heavier damping of the backwave. The top end does roll off but no more then any stock yamaha, and it makes for a pleasant listening experience, but not for the people who like razor shards in their ears. 

 

[takato14]

  It is not an iem - it really needs the headband. ( which is an engineering marvel - just amazing ) The little arm that holds the ear piece pivots down to bring the tip into contact with the ear canal. The ear piece has that acoustic chamber that can be detached - this allows for heavier damping of the backwave. The top end does roll off but no more then any stock yamaha, and it makes for a pleasant listening experience, but not for the people who like razor shards in their ears. 

Oh wow, want factor increased by 300%. 

 

[Armaegis]

I thought they were well into the four digit$ given the ridiculous rarity of them.

 

[Hutnicks]

  It is not an iem - it really needs the headband. ( which is an engineering marvel - just amazing ) The little arm that holds the ear piece pivots down to bring the tip into contact with the ear canal. The ear piece has that acoustic chamber that can be detached - this allows for heavier damping of the backwave. The top end does roll off but no more then any stock yamaha, and it makes for a pleasant listening experience, but not for the people who like razor shards in their ears. 

Thanks. That headband has always had me wondering why no one has copied it.

 

[Hutnicks]

  I thought they were well into the four digit$ given the ridiculous rarity of them.

That is what I was thinking. I do recall that most of the quad digit sales went to Japan or other far east countries though.