[PurpleAngel]

It is, but Creative hasn't done that. If they did there would be
a) a FAQ on their website explaining how to compile/load the driver
b) a kernel module listed by the lsmod command on my system
c) Driver reported for X7 would not be the stock usb audio driver
The SBX Headphone surround software does what the DSP hardware chip within the X7 and G5/G6 does. Processes surround sound into stereo using SBX algorithm. But that doesn't mean the processing that's happening within the X7 is done in software.

Here is Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-Fi MB3 ($30) that provides SBX Headphone surround sound, for anyone to buy and install on their Windows PC, and the PC will not contain none of Creative's DSP chips.
http://software.store.creative.com/p/software/sound-blaster-x-fi-mb3
So how does that Creative software provide SBX Headphone, without the use of any of Creative's DSP chips, that you say is need for SBX Headphone?
Please enlighten my tiny brain.

 

[Yethal]

Here is Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-Fi MB3 ($30) that provides SBX Headphone surround sound, for anyone to buy and install on their Windows PC, and the PC will not contain none of Creative's DSP chips.
http://software.store.creative.com/p/software/sound-blaster-x-fi-mb3
So how does that Creative software provide SBX Headphone, without the use of any of Creative's DSP chips, that you say is need for SBX Headphone?
Please enlighten my tiny brain.

In software, as I said previously.
SBX headphone suite does in software what G5, G6 and X7 do in hardware using a dedicated DSP chip.

 

[mindbomb]

Im have x7 and AE5 (its some kind of "internal version of G6")
Im dont see any difference by sound quality (but many audiofils say AE5 much better )
X7 its a much more functional device. Its have multichannel outputs and many others thing, als its have some functional and more accurate control panel. Control panel of G6/AE-5 its a terrible designed and cutted functionality.
In points of virtual 3d - at now (after windows vista) all games use internal HRTF by its own sound engine, so im prefer use just stereo, and imho its no point to use HRTF by sound card now - in theory internal game result must be better because game engine work with source sound and create most accurate mix. When used sound card HRTF, its double conversing: first one game make 5.1 sound for speakers, after it sound card make downmix from . 5,1 to virtual 3d in headphones.

Most games will not add in hrtf for headphone users. One major obstacle is that they don't even have a mechanism to know if the end user is using headphones, so typically the games that offer it, like Overwatch and BF5, still make users manually opt in. Some of the most popular games right now, like Apex Legends, Fortnite, Metro Exodus, Call of Duty Black Ops 4, and GTA 5, don't use hrtf. However, all those games support surround sound audio, so they would benefit from the use of processing to convert that audio to virtual surround sound for headphones.

The HRTFs are applied binaurally, meaning that both ears are required for the intended effect. A quick and easy test to see if there are HRTFs being used is to lift one ear cup off of your head, and see if sounds that are in front of you suddenly lose depth.

 

[iunewind]

It would be really nice of the games worked the way you just described. Entire headphone gaming would be much simpler. Unfortunately unless a game is specifically coded to use an HRTF algorithm (like PC version of Overwatch) it's going to use stock fmod pipeline(audio middleware used by every major game engine on the planet) and render a stereo mix that's basically a widened stereo mix.

Im clearly hear front/back sounds in headphones when play typical 3D game (without special selection of headphones in in-game settings). Game make HRTF by it self, but, of course, if we have options to make 5.1 game output and downmix it on sound card (or software, and today its, imho, always software but different algorithms depended by sound card vendor), its always be debate about what better.
Im read different opinions. Some people think in-game HRTF is better. Some people think opposite - like Creative algorithms work best. Some other people think double conversion its bad for sound, you lose clarity and make some smeared sound when downmix already downmixed 5/7 channel again to 2 channels.
In game sound engine work with dozens of sounds (samples) and create from it downmix to 5 channels with different effect already applied to each sample - for emulating fading, moving, echo, reverb of each sound etc. Its no clear answer - will it better if external algorithm downmixed it again or make its stereo work better.
Another thing: when you play Direct mode (plane stereo so it use in game HRTF) on sound card like AE-5, G6, X7 or any external DAC you have maximum sound quality can be achieved on that sound card. If you select any other mode, signal will be reworked and slightly degraded. Im never hear difference but some peoples say its really better to hear direct modes

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

I've yet to hear any in game HTRF to sound anywhere near as convincing as dedicated virtual surround dsps like SBX, DH, etc.

Like for example, Resident Evil 2 Remake has a binaural mix option. It sounds better than stereo for sure, but it still does not place rear audio cues behind your ears. It does differentiate front/rear sounds much better than stereo, but it's no replacement to what we're used to here. My biggest disappointment with any HTRF is when rear sounds are still coming from in front, which some binaural tracks still do. What's the point in binaural if they can't convince the ears of things around you, and at best can only slightly make the soundfield less linear? yes, you can tell that the sound is a rear cue, but within the headspace, it's still in front of your eyes. That's a failure to me.

No one can ever convince me that something like that is better than Dolby Headphone, Creative SBX, Sennheiser GSX where there is a definite sound coming from behind you.

I've come by a used HE-4 in very good condition and that thing is actually really really good. I love the classic Hifiman line much more than the new, except for the HE-1000SE (unfortunately too expensive). Found the previous ones including the HEX V2 too soft.

The HE-4 is very different from the HE-500 and different enough from the HE-400. It's quite fast, clean, punchy, impressive width in the soundstage with very good separation, however depth (layering) is not a very strong point unfortunately. HE-400 has phatter weightier bass while as clean but the mids are less ideal, more subdued on the top, generally not as natural as I hoped (HE-500 easily bests both though, the HE-400 comes last) and the highs even more aggressive. HE-500's bass is less clean than both but it's overall a more cohorent and better balanced headphone.

HE-4's highs are north of neutral and really lively. Not Pro 900 crazy (which some people of course rightfully like) but still plentyful.

I need to find a way to tame those highs a bit because they definitely can be too much with various games. Horizon Zero Dawn for instance has a very rich (and really well made) sound environment and the crushing of ice, bursting of metal and the trails of shattering rocks, bolts and electricity are too much. BlasterX G6 -> Gungnir MB

Power wise the HE-4 is quite the hungry beast and as with most classics they can be cranked very high without them falling apart.

I'm glad you like the HE-4. A massive, severely underrated headphone.

I had it at the time I had the D7000, and it gave me a very different and eqaully as important sound to me. It sounded high end, without the high end price, but man, that thing needs a very powerful amp. I definitely put it up there among my top 5 I'd say.

I think the only shortcoming of the HE-4's sound was the grainy high end, but man it sounded airy and quick otherwise.

 

[mindbomb]

Im clearly hear front/back sounds in headphones when play typical 3D game (without special selection of headphones in in-game settings). Game make HRTF by it self, but, of course, if we have options to make 5.1 game output and downmix it on sound card (or software, and today its, imho, always software but different algorithms depended by sound card vendor), its always be debate about what better.
Im read different opinions. Some people think in-game HRTF is better. Some people think opposite - like Creative algorithms work best. Some other people think double conversion its bad for sound, you lose clarity and make some smeared sound when downmix already downmixed 5/7 channel again to 2 channels.
In game sound engine work with dozens of sounds (samples) and create from it downmix to 5 channels with different effect already applied to each sample - for emulating fading, moving, echo, reverb of each sound etc. Its no clear answer - will it better if external algorithm downmixed it again or make its stereo work better.
Another thing: when you play Direct mode (plane stereo so it use in game HRTF) on sound card like AE-5, G6, X7 or any external DAC you have maximum sound quality can be achieved on that sound card. If you select any other mode, signal will be reworked and slightly degraded. Im never hear difference but some peoples say its really better to hear direct modes

Let me be very clear here: many games don't have hrtf audio. For example: Apex Legends, Fortnite, Metro Exodus, Call of Duty Black Ops 4, and GTA 5 don't have hrtf. The way to get hrtf audio in these cases is through the external algorithm.

When you have stereo without an hrtf, you only have 2 native directions, left and right. A consequence of this is that front and back are not handled well and harder to distinguish.

With a 7.1 surround sound format, front and back sounds are in discrete channels. This allows an algorithm to apply different HRTFs to each to maintain the perception of those directions on headphones. Thus the stereo problem is addressed.

 

[iunewind]

Let me be very clear here: many games don't have hrtf audio. For example: Apex Legends, Fortnite, Metro Exodus, Call of Duty Black Ops 4, and GTA 5 don't have hrtf. The way to get hrtf audio in these cases is through the external algorithm.

When you have stereo without an hrtf, you only have 2 native directions, left and right. A consequence of this is that front and back are not handled well and harder to distinguish.

With a 7.1 surround sound format, front and back sounds are in discrete channels. This allows an algorithm to apply different HRTFs to each to maintain the perception of those directions on headphones. Thus the stereo problem is addressed.

Ok, when talking about sound im belive only in blind test, so im make my own now
Metro Exodus, Im found campfire and make random mouse move with eyes shut, after it im try to pointing campfire by ears and check it with eyes open.
On both AE-5 and x7, im try both mode - stereo direct sound and "5.1 in system -> stereo downmix to headphones on soundcard" each with selected and deselected "Spatial Audio (dolby athmos)" in game.. and im fail. In each mode its happening errors of front/back campfire pointing time by time. Im hear it like front of my and when im check by eyes its suddenly was back and vise versa, Most of pointing was correct but not every - some time im wrong (about 20% of tries). Also any "side" positioning pretty rough. So i can say by me experience - headphones in any mode - direct stereo or 5.1-to-stereo conversion work not very good for me.
Im chek it twice on JVC SZ2000 and Bayer 990pro - no difference. "Dolby athmos" in game setup also not affected to my pointing accuracy

After it im try on my quadro speaker setup and of curse, its not any errors at all (but side positioning still rough). Its not correct comparison of curse, because my speaker setup not equal (front and back pair it different speakers) and not very accurate tuned but any way its most cool 3D sound for my with most cool atmosphere, comfort and positioning.

little tip: Creative AE-5 CAN NOT play games with quadro system, because creative drivers degraded for AE-5/G6 geeration and not have ability to select your speakers setup - AE-5 need central speaker for play games in 5.1 modes or you lose all dialogs. (G6 its stereo sound card of curse).
On X7 you can setup your speaker system by cheking/uncheking existing speakers in control panel and not problem play with quadro (without central channel) as any previous Sound Blaster since 20years old SB Live 5.1. On new generation Creative lost this feature.
(sorry my English please, hope you understand something )

 

[Fegefeuer]

I'm glad you like the HE-4. A massive, severely underrated headphone.

I had it at the time I had the D7000, and it gave me a very different and eqaully as important sound to me. It sounded high end, without the high end price, but man, that thing needs a very powerful amp. I definitely put it up there among my top 5 I'd say.

I think the only shortcoming of the HE-4's sound was the grainy high end, but man it sounded airy and quick otherwise.

I remember it from your review back then.

Yeah, it easily requires more power than all my other headphones but even then my amp has more than enough for it and it's already at -14db pre-gain (lowest, which I need for the other headphones) and not much more than 2 o'clock at most.
I guess back then many amps were simply not enough in clean power/drive and since Hifman brought a lot of other headphones the HE-4 became kinda left out over time. HE-6 and HE-500 have a cult status until today though (rightfully so).

I'll try to find a way to subdue the highs slightly, everything else is mostly really great. Trying to create a bit more depth to the soundstage with pad rolling.
I don't even mind the grain like K701, X2 and Co.

The seller didn't even use it more than 150 hours and the condition is excellent (minor spot at the headband).

 

[mindbomb]

Ok, when talking about sound im belive only in blind test, so im make my own now
Metro Exodus, Im found campfire and make random mouse move with eyes shut, after it im try to pointing campfire by ears and check it with eyes open.
On both AE-5 and x7, im try both mode - stereo direct sound and "5.1 in system -> stereo downmix to headphones on soundcard" each with selected and deselected "Spatial Audio (dolby athmos)" in game.. and im fail. In each mode its happening errors of front/back campfire pointing time by time. Im hear it like front of my and when im check by eyes its suddenly was back and vise versa, Most of pointing was correct but not every - some time im wrong (about 20% of tries). Also any "side" positioning pretty rough. So i can say by me experience - headphones in any mode - direct stereo or 5.1-to-stereo conversion work not very good for me.
Im chek it twice on JVC SZ2000 and Bayer 990pro - no difference. "Dolby athmos" in game setup also not affected to my pointing accuracy

I think for Creative, you have to set Windows to 5.1 speaker configuration, then in the Creative driver, set speakers/headphone to virtual 7.1 headphones, then also enable sbx surround in the creative driver.

Dolby atmos in this case is only for people who have bought the Dolby app for windows 10. The app then allows "dolby atmos for headphones".

 

[iunewind]

I think for Creative, you have to set Windows to 5.1 speaker configuration, then in the Creative driver, set speakers/headphone to virtual 7.1 headphones, then also enable sbx surround in the creative driver..

Yes, this is how i set up. And im not hear big difference in terms of better positioning in any mode. Some time im miss with in-game stereo mix to headphones and same rate of errors was with in-game 5.1 converted to headphones on sound card. Also im not hear difference with X7 and AE-5. Probably G6 will work same because its very similar card, just external version of AE-5.
And im make sure one more time - only blind test result its something worth when talking about sound.

 

[mindbomb]

Yes, this is how i set up. And im not hear big difference in terms of better positioning in any mode. Some time im miss with in-game stereo mix to headphones and same rate of errors was with in-game 5.1 converted to headphones on sound card. Also im not hear difference with X7 and AE-5. Probably G6 will work same because its very similar card, just external version of AE-5.
And im make sure one more time - only blind test result its something worth when talking about sound.

Well, there is a test I think would be interesting. While recording just the audio, look at the campfire and then slowly turn clockwise 360 degrees. Then make a new recording, 180 degrees away from the the campfire (so it is behind you at first) and then turn 360 slowly counterclockwise. Compare how different the 2 recordings sound, you can use an abx tester to make it blind, and see if you can tell which one started in front and which one started behind. Then you can do the same experiment with the sound card algorithm.

Then you can put the 4 audio only recordings on youtube with no indication on which file is which, and then have the public participate, and see how well they can which one started in front, and which one started behind.

If anyone else has any comments or wants to do this experiment, I welcome it.

 

[mindbomb]

So, I actually quickly put together the experiment I was describing: Two videos were created. One in which the audio starts out in front, things are rotated 360 degrees, and one where things start behind, and there is rotation in the opposite direction. Can you tell which is which?

Here is the set of 2 videos with stereo audio



And here is the set of 2 videos with dolby headphone dh2

 

[KR1SeS]

RE: Comparing different 3D sound virtualization engines (Dolby Atmos, DTS Headphone X, Creative CMSS 3D, Creative SBX Pro Studio, Sennheiser GSX, Razer Surround, Creative SXFI) I stumbled onto this video:



Of course, you can just download HeSuVi yourself and try them out yourself. https://sourceforge.net/projects/hesuvi/

To my ears (on my headphones, on my soundcard w/ 3D virtualization on card turned OFF) Dolby Atmos, CMSS 3D and Sennheiser GSX sound the best in terms of positional accuracy (esp. front-back localization), without totally distorting the sound.

To my ears, using the settings in the video, Creative's new and improved Super X-FI (SFXFI) sounds like total crap. In fact, every single demo I've heard about Super X-FI - whether games or multi-channel music - sounds distorted, muffled and with bad front-to-back localization.

I have the SHP9500s and tired of using onboard audio with my PC. I was torn between GSX 1000 and Sound BlasterX G6, but also the Mayflower Arc which has no VSS.

I have a question, can I just run HeSuVi and have identical VSS as the GSX 1000 or the G6 running on the Mayflower Arc? This would make my decision so much easier!

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

It should also be noted than when testing things such as virtual surround vs stereo, games MAY require a restart. For example, Destiny 2 throws away the 5.1/7.1 if you ever change it to stereo, so to get proper virtual surround, you have to enable 5.1/7.1 and THEN restart the game. Don't switch games on the fly unless you're doing stereo vs virtual surround through external hardware and not windows. For example, the G6 and X7 will cycle the windows audio plug ins which may break audio in the games in which they won't do 5.1/7.1 unless you relaunch a game.

If you don't restart, all you may be doing is upmising stereo to virtual surround, which is obviously incorrect.

 

[Fegefeuer]

Damn, if you think about it. There is only one thing worse than DEDICATED HARDPANNING STEREO GAMING. IT'S UPMIXED STEREO GAMING.