[Inks]

kikeki means that they are dependant on synergy as well . Source is pretty important though, IEMs like the TF10 can sound pretty different depending on the source. For the most part, most are doing OK with synergy though. 
 
Burn-in is very overrated around these parts. I think the driver does loosen up but not the extent some report, it's mostly a subjective bias it's just that most don't admit it or have a hard believing it. Our auditory memories are poor, many think it isn't. There is a lack of evidence for these so called big changes whereas tests have actually proven that changes are very minimal. See this

 

[music_4321]

Quote:

kikeki means that they are dependant on synergy as well . Source is pretty important though, IEMs like the TF10 can sound pretty different depending on the source. For the most part, most are doing OK with synergy though. 
 
Burn-in is very overrated around these parts. I think the driver does loosen up but not the extent some report, it's mostly a subjective bias it's just that most don't admit it or have a hard believing it. Our auditory memories are poor, many think it isn't. There is a lack of evidence for these so called big changes whereas tests have actually proven that changes are very minimal. See this

You can say that again, and again, and again...
 
The interesting thing is that many people do not realise that not only is our auditory memory pretty poor, but - and I've said this a couple of times elsewhere - often during the course of one day we don't hear things the same way, either due to noise/music overload or other reasons, ie the same phone/car stereo/home system can sound better or worse. Even volume levels vary depending on the time of day where sometimes something we may consider loud at a different time it isn't so and vice versa.
 

 

[Pianist]

Quote:

kikeki means that they are dependant on synergy as well . Source is pretty important though, IEMs like the TF10 can sound pretty different depending on the source. For the most part, most are doing OK with synergy though. 
 
Burn-in is very overrated around these parts. I think the driver does loosen up but not the extent some report, it's mostly a subjective bias it's just that most don't admit it or have a hard believing it. Our auditory memories are poor, many think it isn't. There is a lack of evidence for these so called big changes whereas tests have actually proven that changes are very minimal. See this

 
Well, I AB'ed a year and a half old RE0 with a new RE0 that has been burned in for about 20-30 hours using the same tips, source and music files and to my ears the old RE0 sounded significantly more transparent. How's that? If there is a lack of evidence for the big changes that sure doesn't mean that there are no big changes. Just like the lack of evidence that aliens exist doesn't mean that there are no aliens out there.

 

[Inks]

I ABed an old (lots of burn-in from Anaxilus) and brand new Xcape v1 and there was only a very slight difference. I think there's a batch difference there with the REs, manufacturers won't admit it but a lot of the times the IEMs aren't perfectly matched. I've owned 3 HJE900s and each one had frequency differences in each earpiece >_<"
 
Yes, but there is evidence for little differences, nothing as big as mentioned so I think that's closer to the truth. 

 

[AngryBaconGod]

 
Well, I AB'ed a year and a half old RE0 with a new RE0 that has been burned in for about 20-30 hours using the same tips, source and music files and to my ears the old RE0 sounded significantly more transparent. How's that? If there is a lack of evidence for the big changes that sure doesn't mean that there are no big changes. Just like the lack of evidence that aliens exist doesn't mean that there are no aliens out there.

Since you have no way of knowing (or proving) that the year and a half old IEM started out sounding the same as the new IEM does, you can not conclude that burn-in the cause of the difference.

I've simply restated Inks' point in my own way.


Don't dispair though: you can perform a test!

Buy two RE0's. Make sure they sound identical to your ears with a given source and music files. Get a couple of other people to listen and agree that they are the same.

Now, put one RE0, the music source (loaded with the music) in a safe and don't open it for a year and a half. Use the other RE0 daily. In a year and a half, open the safe and use the stored RE0 for a couple of weeks. Then compare the two RE0's using the original source and music files. Get those same two people to also compare.

See if you have a minor change or a significant change. Or perhaps no change!


As you said earlier, good things come to those who wait.

 

[kiteki]

 
Quote:

kikeki means that they are dependant on synergy as well . Source is pretty important though, IEMs like the TF10 can sound pretty different depending on the source. For the most part, most are doing OK with synergy though. 
 
Burn-in is very overrated around these parts. I think the driver does loosen up but not the extent some report, it's mostly a subjective bias it's just that most don't admit it or have a hard believing it. Our auditory memories are poor, many think it isn't. There is a lack of evidence for these so called big changes whereas tests have actually proven that changes are very minimal. See this

Synergy and source are factors yes, though my point was going from one IEM ---------> to another IEM = the difference in sound will be larger than the differences in sound achieved due to variations within a single IEM.
 
If I listen to 128Kbps MP3 out of my Sony gumstick using an MDR-EX1000 without any tips on it, it will still sound much better than a basic IEM out of the best DAP using FLAC with a perfect fit.
 
Due to this fact (which is common for everyone) I think the sound difference in going from one IEM to another is significant enough to rule out "oh well it's all highly subjective anyway" (at least with the stated reasons "fit, source and bitrate") which was supposed to explain why IEM's are subjective and speakers are not.
 
It's like saying "this is a top-tier IEM, but not everyone can appreciate it's fantastic nature if their source, fit, bitrate, music or level of sophistication simply isn't there", there's a difference between subjective and arrogant.
 
The sound acheived by the nature of any single speaker or IEM (with decent amplification) is much more significant than the noticable yet miniscule differences you'll get with bitrate, cables, burn-in and stuff like that.  Claiming you need the correct cables, bitrate or burn-in for any said speaker or IEM to truly shine is arrogant and derailing from any form of consensus or truth (IMHO).
 
=)

 

[kiteki]

 
Quote:

[...] If you don't enjoy interpretative discussion, then let's just stick to discussing FR, IR and square wave response whenever this data is available, there are just too many factors otherwise.
 

I think I see your point, thanks for your concern, I think a mixture of science and esotericism is best.
 
 

 

[i2ehan]

Quote:

You can say that again, and again, and again...
 
The interesting thing is that many people do not realise that not only is our auditory memory pretty poor, but - and I've said this a couple of times elsewhere - often during the course of one day we don't hear things the same way, either due to noise/music overload or other reasons, ie the same phone/car stereo/home system can sound better or worse. Even volume levels vary depending on the time of day where sometimes something we may consider loud at a different time it isn't so and vice versa.

 
Well put my friend. I'd have to agree with you completely The best example, in my case, is that of the SM3. Again, sorry music

, but I can't tell you how many times I've found myself revisiting the SM3 even when my ears are occupied with another in-ear. For instance, that veil I had heard only 2 days back, I'm no longer hearing (to the same extent) today. Cable, tips, and tracks I'm listening to are one and the same; the sound I'm hearing now however, not so much the same as what I had heard two days back, but much more pleasant. It's as though the SM3 is yet again beginning to draw me in, just as it did 3 months back when I declared it my most preferred in-ear over the other contenders. No, it's certainly not to the extent where it would take the place of the EX1000 for my ears, but it's growing on me still. The above statement is really the only reasonable explanation I could offer myself.

 

[kiteki]

I think you could call that phenonemon acquaintance, desensitisation, or acclimatisation.
 
Music/noise overload will change an IEM to about 10% imho, and, again, not the 25%-600% change you get from going from one IEM to another, from an ER-4 to a Dr. Dre. etc. etc.
 
 

 

[music_4321]

Quote:

I think you could call that phenonemon acquaintance, desensitisation, or acclimatisation.
 
Music/noise overload will change an IEM to about 10% imho, and, again, not the 25%-600% change you get from going from one IEM to another, from an ER-4 to a Dr. Dre. etc. etc.
 

I agree it's certainly NOT 600%!
 
BUT on certain occasions the difference is certainly more than 10% which, if you think about it, isn't all that high. I remember quite well during the last 2+ years with my custom ES3X, which I love, how I sometimes didn't hear them all that great, certainly more than a 10% SQ difference and more like 20-25%. I also remember quite distinctly how after a full week of no music listening at all, my older £60 EX90 sounded simply incredible - at the time I was so 'music hungry' that the EX90s sounded like the best thing I'd ever heard.
 
Such differences are not all that different - though not exactly the same - to food, drink, etc. - if , for instance, you have your favourite dish on a daily basis (regardless of how hungry you may be), it won't taste as good as the first time you had it or if you have it every now and again. There's more to it than that, but it's no use discussing all those variables now.
 

 

[kiteki]

oh...... yeah you're right, if you didn't listen to music for a week the music/noise overload/thirst would be much higher than 10% yeah.... maybe even 30%.
 
Well, time to start using music/noise overload/thirst as a new term then.
 
Not to mention our ears adjust to loud volumes somehow, just like our eyes adjust to light levels, and I suspect IEM's tend to perform better overall at higher volumes, more juice.  Just like a camera will perform much better in strong sunlight, possibly...  *shrug*

 

[music_4321]

Quote:

oh...... yeah you're right, if you didn't listen to music for a week the music/noise overload/thirst would be much higher than 10% yeah.... maybe even 30%.
 
Well, time to start using music/noise overload/thirst as a new term then.
 
Not to mention our ears adjust to loud volumes somehow, just like our eyes adjust to light levels, and I suspect IEM's tend to perform better overall at higher volumes, more juice.
 

And quite the opposite is true: our ears adapt to lower volumes too. A long time ago I learned and managed to 'discipline' myself not not go over 50% max of volume on my DAPs (30% max with the very sensitive ES3X and UM3X previously) as I wanted to preserve my hearing, and so, most of the time it's about 40% with my EX1000s. At times I do crank it up but just for a few minutes. With the EX1000s, I have to admit, that 'discipline' has proved a little harder, though. Late at night, just before going to bed, I listen at (much) lower volumes even (mostly with my CKM99s) and after a few minutes it gets very satisfying, ie loud enough to really enjoy.
 

 

[kiteki]

Good luck trying that discipline with the ER-4S, at 50% volume the bass is pretty much non-existant, perhaps a nice feature for detail freakheads.
 
Yeah the new EX series seem very volume enticing, I usually have it close to max on the EX600, luckily it's not seeming to harsh so far, unlike the EX700 where extended high volumes were completely impossible.
 
The RE0 and RE252 I think are pretty OK at medium volumes, IMHO the RE0 is a good "easy listening" IEM, it has a slightly warm and nice character that is good for pop and easy listening.

 

[i2ehan]

Ever since my very first IE8's, which I initially purchased 3 years back and kept for nearly 2 years time, I acclimated myself to low volume listening. Fortunately, it certainly paid off, since now, through my FiiO E7, using my EX1000's, I'm able to listen comfortably at a volume setting between 12-14 (max), out of a possible 60. Similarly, I rarely ever exceed a volume setting of 10 with the SM3's, which are powerhouses to begin with. However, in my case, this owes to the fact that I almost always prefer a deep tip insertion; hence why my exclusive tips are the Monster tri-flanges. Nonetheless, I've never encountered any noteworthy listening fatigue, or pain, or chronic discomfort, nor do I find the need to push the volume any further, since I'm able to hear the sound clearly through and through; I know that to be true because, for experimental purposes, I've exceeded my preferred volume settings, and I hear no appreciable difference in detail/clarity, which are brought forth just fine at my preferred volume levels. 

 

[Freefallr4545]

Quote:

 
Well, I AB'ed a year and a half old RE0 with a new RE0 that has been burned in for about 20-30 hours using the same tips, source and music files and to my ears the old RE0 sounded significantly more transparent. How's that? If there is a lack of evidence for the big changes that sure doesn't mean that there are no big changes. Just like the lack of evidence that aliens exist doesn't mean that there are no aliens out there.

 
 


Quote:

Since you have no way of knowing (or proving) that the year and a half old IEM started out sounding the same as the new IEM does, you can not conclude that burn-in the cause of the difference.

I've simply restated Inks' point in my own way.


Don't dispair though: you can perform a test!

Buy two RE0's. Make sure they sound identical to your ears with a given source and music files. Get a couple of other people to listen and agree that they are the same.

Now, put one RE0, the music source (loaded with the music) in a safe and don't open it for a year and a half. Use the other RE0 daily. In a year and a half, open the safe and use the stored RE0 for a couple of weeks. Then compare the two RE0's using the original source and music files. Get those same two people to also compare.

See if you have a minor change or a significant change. Or perhaps no change!


As you said earlier, good things come to those who wait.

 

Or Pianist can Simply Believe that there is Burn in, and there are Aliens, (Like I do)