Woo Audio Amp Owner Unite
May 24, 2011 at 1:43 AM Post #10,231 of 42,298


Quote:
I am not sure why the method of music delivery would affect the sound. Said another way, if your DAC was fed via a touch or a transport of similar cost I would expect the sound to be very similar. Or am I misunderstanding what you said ?


No, you got it right.  However I think the issue was with my PWD where audio quality was on the harsh side.  From what I am hearing on the DLIII, it's much better.  I had spent the last three weeks iterating through a number of configurations with my PWD and I think that was where I left it.  I just went back to my iPod/wadia source to try to recover my baseline.
 
From what I am now hearing, the Touch is sounding nice with the DLIII.  However I just put in a NOS GZ37 rectifier and am breaking that in, so I'll need a few days till everything settles down and I sort out a baseline.  I just can't tell you how the last three weeks totally blew my circuits, so to speak.
 
 
 
May 24, 2011 at 1:44 AM Post #10,232 of 42,298


Quote:
Clayton,
Why do you have both WA22 and WA2, are there certain aspects of each that you like?


Yes, Clayton; why?
L3000.gif

 
 
 
May 24, 2011 at 2:12 AM Post #10,233 of 42,298
For me to answer that question would be akin to cheating. It's his question to answer. But, if Clayton is a no-show in this forum Tuesday... 
popcorn.gif

 
May 24, 2011 at 5:48 AM Post #10,234 of 42,298
I did, and I think it's a good piece of gear, the problem was that it was just too hot at the high end for me.  Same with the QNAP via my PWD/Bridge.  Anything that streams over the network is just too hot for me. 
 
I still have the Touch downstairs and with speakers it sounds great.  That was about three weeks ago and it has been playing continuously since then.  Maybe it's a good time for me to bring it upstairs and try it again.  Maybe it got broken in.  I'll let you know how it goes.
 
I don't know if there is a larger problem here, but I have not been able to listen to anything streamed realtime via a computer or network.  They only thing that sounds really good to me is my iPod via the Wadia i170.  Everything else sounds harsh on the top end.  The PWD is actually back in Boulder at PS Audio and they are looking at it.
 
Thanks for asking.
 
 


Mike, just a thought...you described the sound quality as poor when it's streamed. In theory, this should not matter. It's just bits at this point. The dac/amp/headphone is responsible for the sound character.
One thing to remenber is that the better your equipment becomes, the more "revealing" it gets.
Streaming mp3 music as opposed to cd quality files may be a cause for objectional sound qualities because of the equipment's ability to reprduce every nuance.
My 2 cents.
 
May 24, 2011 at 9:15 AM Post #10,235 of 42,298
     Quote:

x2 
 
Pure Music with a Mac is one of the best sounding (of course DAC dependent) and easiest to use server options out there. 
 
I don't even have my computer connected to a monitor, I do all controlling from an iPad. 
 
I had one of my best and most immersive listening sessions yesterday afternoon with the K1000's, I just didn't ever want it to end. This may have been the first time I have really used them since installing Pure Music and the difference was not subtle. 
 
The new upgrades are indeed huge, can't wait!
 


X3

I'm doing the same thing - I have 2 headless minis (one in living room for speaker rig, another in bedroom where my Woo is), both hard-wired to my network, with media on a NAS in another room. Memory playback with PM is a great thing.

Also very cool that PM still works when using the "remote" app (though I use VNC more often).
 
May 24, 2011 at 11:22 AM Post #10,236 of 42,298


 
Quote:
Quote:
I did, and I think it's a good piece of gear, the problem was that it was just too hot at the high end for me.  Same with the QNAP via my PWD/Bridge.  Anything that streams over the network is just too hot for me. 
 
I still have the Touch downstairs and with speakers it sounds great.  That was about three weeks ago and it has been playing continuously since then.  Maybe it's a good time for me to bring it upstairs and try it again.  Maybe it got broken in.  I'll let you know how it goes.
 
I don't know if there is a larger problem here, but I have not been able to listen to anything streamed realtime via a computer or network.  They only thing that sounds really good to me is my iPod via the Wadia i170.  Everything else sounds harsh on the top end.  The PWD is actually back in Boulder at PS Audio and they are looking at it.
 
Thanks for asking.
 
 




Mike, just a thought...you described the sound quality as poor when it's streamed. In theory, this should not matter. It's just bits at this point. The dac/amp/headphone is responsible for the sound character.
One thing to remenber is that the better your equipment becomes, the more "revealing" it gets.
Streaming mp3 music as opposed to cd quality files may be a cause for objectional sound qualities because of the equipment's ability to reprduce every nuance.
My 2 cents.


John, yes - but.  I've been thinking a lot about this.  Unfortunately I'm not an expert in this area, so I am not sure my thinking is correct.
 
Now that I have my DAC issues sorted out, I've been comparing the sound from my iPod/Wadia source to my Touch and even though they are coming through the same DAC, there is a difference to my ears. 
 
If we break it down, the Touch is streaming music file data via the TCP/IP Ethernet stack from a server on my network.  Then it takes that stream and with its own [size=10pt]proprietary source code, digitizes it into several streams that include the music and the timing signal, and outputs it via the built-in sound card.  [/size]
 
[size=10pt]With my iPod/Wadia combination, there is no TCP/IP network between where the music files live and the mechanism to digitize it.  It's all in the iPod and the Wadia functions as an electronic lock box that uses the digital output from the iPod and sends it out its digital outputs.[/size]
 
[size=10pt]So if we look at just getting music data packets to the digitizer on each platform, we're talking about processing masses of data in real-time.  The deal about TCP/IP that is so cool for our world today is that its strength is error correction.  That is, not all data packets arrive in order, but because of information in packet headers, network cards can reorder or request the data be sent again.   For the way we use computers, this works really well.  But for music, there is an issue; the strength becomes a weakness, that is the transport of data is built around recovery not real-time accuracy.  In listening to music, this is problematic because we hear in real time and the ears have no place to store sound and do error checking before sending it on to our brain.[/size]
 
[size=10pt]It's my thinking, and I can be wrong, that this error recovery colors the sound.  That is, although bits is bits, the order of the bits, what bits actually make it to the stream, and how they are synchronized I think is at the heart of streaming data over a network.  To me, and it is hard to verbalize this, there seems to be something extra, something I personally characterize as harshness, or glare or high frequency pressure in music over any streamed device, vs the iPod/Wadia approach.  [/size]
 
[size=10pt]Another company, Bryston, has just come out with the BDP-1, a music player that will only stream music from a thumb drive or connected hard drive.  It does have a network connector, but that is only for a website to control the player, it will not stream over a network.  They have reduced data streaming error issues this way.[/size]
 
[size=10pt]PS Audio is an interesting example with their PWT in that they don't play CD's directly but have a 6 meg buffer that receives file data where it is error corrected first, and then streamed.  My thinking is that something analogous might have to happen on the streaming media side that employ much larger buffers where file data is streamed and then error corrected before play.[/size]
 
[size=10pt]Again, I'm no expert and can have much of this wrong.  But, bottom line for me is that I can hear the difference and streaming media has been problematic for me.  I am going to look into the BDP-1.  Also, I see you are using a Logitech Transporter.  Do you think that is a higher quality streaming device than the Touch?  [/size]
 
[size=10pt]On another subject, yesterday I took delivery of a GZ37 on your recommendation and I am really liking it so far.  I only have about three hours on it, but right from the get go it was very smooth and easy to listen to.  It was really great with classical music.  I'm looking forward to it after 20 hours or so.  I really appreciate your tube recommendations, thank you.[/size]

 
 
 
May 24, 2011 at 11:34 AM Post #10,237 of 42,298
Mike, have you tried connecting a hard drive or a thumb drive to the USB port on the Touch to see if the difference is the Touch itself and not the streaming?  I have not heard people talk about the issues you have identified over at the slimdevices forum.  That doesn't mean they aren't there.
 
May 24, 2011 at 11:53 AM Post #10,238 of 42,298
Help!
 
Searching for a new power tube for my WA3...
 
I am totally new at tube rolling.... what exactly does all this mean?  (specifically the testing numbers)  Does anyone (or, can anyone) have an opinion on this tube based upon this supplied info?  Can I consider it to be in good shape?
 
 
[size=x-large]1-Tung Sol-JAN-CTL-5998 Double [] Getter Vacuum Tube[/size]
[size=large][size=large]This is 1-Tung Sol-JAN-CTL-5998 Double [] Getter vacuum Tube .[/size]       [/size]
[size=medium][size=large][size=14pt]Tested on a TV/7 tube tester ,the min value-40 .[/size][/size][/size]
 
[size=14pt]The test results were 40/40  .[/size]
[size=14pt] [/size]
[size=14pt][size=large][size=14pt]All tubes are tested 3 times prior to the listing and prior to shipping .[/size][/size][/size]
[size=14pt] [/size]
[size=14pt][size=large][size=14pt]All tubes package meticulous and safe .[/size][/size][/size]
 
May 24, 2011 at 12:01 PM Post #10,239 of 42,298
That tube is measuring right at the very minimum "good" level.  Not a strong tube.  Might work, but I wouldn;t spend $50 on that - no way.
 
May 24, 2011 at 12:13 PM Post #10,240 of 42,298


Quote:
That tube is measuring right at the very minimum "good" level.  Not a strong tube.  Might work, but I wouldn;t spend $50 on that - no way.


Was just about to say the same thing.
 
Generally speaking as a rule of thumb (in most cases), take the minimum value and multiple it by 1.5. This would be the minimum value I would accept when looking to purchase a tube. You'll find cases where NOS tubes are double (or higher) then minimum. As tubes are used the testing results will go down eventually. So as Skylab has indicated, starting at 40 with the minimum of 40 isn't a good buy.
 
 
May 24, 2011 at 12:18 PM Post #10,241 of 42,298
Hi y'all,
 
I'm considering purchasing a WA22, and would sure like to hear from some folks about how it pairs with the HD800 and HD600 running in balanced configuration.  Thanks!
 
May 24, 2011 at 12:19 PM Post #10,242 of 42,298
So is the minimum value something that is determined by the tube tester itself?  Meaning the tube tester in that case had a min value of 40?  Therefore using your 1.5 rule you'd expect the tubes to test 60/60? (40 x 1.5 = 60)  
 
Why do they list the results as 40/40?  why two numbers?
 
Perhaps I am way off.  Thanks for the info guys - I'd like to understand this.
 
 
Also, what do THESE numbers (the "ma" ones) mean?
 
1 low noise pair 6DJ8 Sylvania JAN NOS 1971 same date codes
1 tube) 24/26ma
1 tube) 23/26.5ma

1 low noise pair 6DJ8 Sylvania JAN NOS 1973 same date codes
1 tube) 26/29ma
1 tube) 27/29ma
 
Thank you skylab and golfnutz, and whoever else can help.  I very much appreciate your time and information.
 
May 24, 2011 at 12:25 PM Post #10,243 of 42,298


 
Quote:
 

John, yes - but.  I've been thinking a lot about this.  Unfortunately I'm not an expert in this area, so I am not sure my thinking is correct.
 
Now that I have my DAC issues sorted out, I've been comparing the sound from my iPod/Wadia source to my Touch and even though they are coming through the same DAC, there is a difference to my ears. 
 
If we break it down, the Touch is streaming music file data via the TCP/IP Ethernet stack from a server on my network.  Then it takes that stream and with its own [size=10pt]proprietary source code, digitizes it into several streams that include the music and the timing signal, and outputs it via the built-in sound card.  [/size]
 
[size=10pt]With my iPod/Wadia combination, there is no TCP/IP network between where the music files live and the mechanism to digitize it.  It's all in the iPod and the Wadia functions as an electronic lock box that uses the digital output from the iPod and sends it out its digital outputs.[/size]
 
[size=10pt]So if we look at just getting music data packets to the digitizer on each platform, we're talking about processing masses of data in real-time.  The deal about TCP/IP that is so cool for our world today is that its strength is error correction.  That is, not all data packets arrive in order, but because of information in packet headers, network cards can reorder or request the data be sent again.   For the way we use computers, this works really well.  But for music, there is an issue; the strength becomes a weakness, that is the transport of data is built around recovery not real-time accuracy.  In listening to music, this is problematic because we hear in real time and the ears have no place to store sound and do error checking before sending it on to our brain.[/size]
 
[size=10pt]It's my thinking, and I can be wrong, that this error recovery colors the sound.  That is, although bits is bits, the order of the bits, what bits actually make it to the stream, and how they are synchronized I think is at the heart of streaming data over a network.  To me, and it is hard to verbalize this, there seems to be something extra, something I personally characterize as harshness, or glare or high frequency pressure in music over any streamed device, vs the iPod/Wadia approach.  [/size]
 
[size=10pt]Another company, Bryston, has just come out with the BDP-1, a music player that will only stream music from a thumb drive or connected hard drive.  It does have a network connector, but that is only for a website to control the player, it will not stream over a network.  They have reduced data streaming error issues this way.[/size]
 
[size=10pt]PS Audio is an interesting example with their PWT in that they don't play CD's directly but have a 6 meg buffer that receives file data where it is error corrected first, and then streamed.  My thinking is that something analogous might have to happen on the streaming media side that employ much larger buffers where file data is streamed and then error corrected before play.[/size]
 
[size=10pt]Again, I'm no expert and can have much of this wrong.  But, bottom line for me is that I can hear the difference and streaming media has been problematic for me.  I am going to look into the BDP-1.  Also, I see you are using a Logitech Transporter.  Do you think that is a higher quality streaming device than the Touch?  [/size]
 
[size=10pt]On another subject, yesterday I took delivery of a GZ37 on your recommendation and I am really liking it so far.  I only have about three hours on it, but right from the get go it was very smooth and easy to listen to.  It was really great with classical music.  I'm looking forward to it after 20 hours or so.  I really appreciate your tube recommendations, thank you.[/size]

 
 



Mike, does this mean that your using the digital output of the Touch to your DAC? Why not the analog out of the Touch built in DAC to your amp?
Anyway, I'm no expert, but everything that I read here for the past few years suggests that none of the objectionable sound that you hear can come from the digital domain: http://forums.slimdevices.com/forumdisplay.php?f=7 
 
As they say bits is bits, it's 1s and 0s. Ethernet or WI-FI. Once you get to the DAC, and into the analog realm...well that's another discussion.
 
P.S. as far as the Transporter vs Touch, the only difference as far as sound quality goes is due to the different DAC that each product has and yes, most feel the Transporter has a better DAC. But they both handle or process the digital stream in the same way as far as I know. At this level of product lines, and given the current SOTA, discussions involving dither and clocks is a non-issue imo.
I run my all four of my Logitech boxes on WI-FI, no need for Ethernet...does not effect sound quality...only buffering if the WI-FI is less than adequate.
 
 
May 24, 2011 at 12:26 PM Post #10,244 of 42,298
Nova13, the 5998 lists two numbers because it is a dual triode - there are two sections.  So the "40/40" numbers listed were for sec 1 and 2, not "40 out of 40" or anything like that.  40 was a point on the scale of that particular tester that is the "line" between "good" and "bad".  It means nothing more - very arbitrary.
 
What's far more helpful is to receive a real number for transconductance.  When I sell tubes, I provide the actual transconductance numbers, and what the target "new" transconductance number should be.  Transconductance is  the Ratio of the change of output current to the change of input voltage (or more specifically, ratio of change in plate current to a change in grid voltage, with plate voltage held constant), is represented by Gm, and is measured in microhomos.  This is a much more useful test result to list when you are selling tubes, and the better testers all are mutual transconductance testers.
 
May 24, 2011 at 12:41 PM Post #10,245 of 42,298


Quote:
Mike, have you tried connecting a hard drive or a thumb drive to the USB port on the Touch to see if the difference is the Touch itself and not the streaming?  I have not heard people talk about the issues you have identified over at the slimdevices forum.  That doesn't mean they aren't there.


That is a very interesting idea.  I'll do that and post.
 
 
 

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