[jc9394]

Does anyone have an idea of this FURMAN Symmetrically Balanced Power Conditioner, it looks very promising. It's like a rock weight 43KG. :eek:

For this price, I rather get a Perfectwave P5.

 

[grokit]

Quote:

If use a same cable geometry, it is the same. Even if you are using TRS, WA22 is not true balanced out even the amp is a balanced amp. It is well documented.

 
I have a different opinion, on both points. IME, certain headphones respond to balanced cabling, regardless of the amp used.
 
In regards to the WA22 not being fully balanced, I'm not convinced that is the case either:
 
Quote:

[size=medium]The WA22 is a fully balanced amp, see diagram below.[/size]
 

 
 
[size=medium]The question here is that this amp is not fully balanced because the "amp with a single ended output stage directly connected to the XLR connectors.” It is not true. In an Output Transformer coupled design, the primary and secondary coils are isolated. Output stage and input stage are not connected and thus no cross-talk whatsoever can happen.[/size]
 
[size=medium]On the ¼” output, both channels have independent paths, see the black and red wires.  If this wiring scheme applies to a Output Transformer Less design, the circuit will become single-ended. See the second diagram in #17, the v- would have to be a common wire to other channel.  One must be carefull not to take reference from the wrong context to avoid all the misunderstanding.[/size]
 
[size=medium]Also, no phase splitter is needed because the source is XLR (balanced). As for the RCA input, only ½ of the input is used and the efficiency is roughly dropped 50%. In other words, the RCA input will not take advantage of this design. You must use a balanced source to get the best out of the WA22.[/size]
 
[size=medium]Hope that clarifies.[/size]
 
[size=medium]-Jack[/size]

 
 
From the owner's manual Q&A:

"If I connect the WA22 with RCA interconnects, will the amp still provide a balanced signal to the balanced output?

"No, there is no RCA to Balanced conversion in this amp. A source with a true balanced output will work the best with the WA22."

I understand this as balanced in = balanced out through the balanced outputs, and SE in = SE out through either output. I have also read that the SE/TRS headphone jack sounds just as good as the balanced/XLR jack when using a balanced input, but IME that's not the case. When using the balanced inputs(s), the balanced outputs sound better to me.

 

[dminches]

I don't know much about the Furman conditioners but you need to get one that is not current limiting.  I have only Running Springs units for that reason.  I have 2 Dukes and a Haley.

 

[john57]

Quote:

For this price, I rather get a Perfectwave P5.

Me too

 The Furman is a fancy isolation transformer.

 

[Silent One]

Quote:

I don't know much about the Furman conditioners but you need to get one that is not current limiting.  I have only Running Springs units for that reason.  I have 2 Dukes and a Haley.

 

 Sounds like a trio of Antique Classic Roadsters! Getting a component that's not current limiting is a great point; reminder.

 

[Silent One]

Quote:

Quote:

If use a same cable geometry, it is the same. Even if you are using TRS, WA22 is not true balanced out even the amp is a balanced amp. It is well documented.

 
I have a different opinion, on both points. IME, certain headphones respond to balanced cabling, regardless of the amp used.
 
In regards to the WA22 not being fully balanced, I'm not convinced that is the case either:
 
Quote:

[size=medium]The WA22 is a fully balanced amp, see diagram below.[/size]
 

 
 
[size=medium]The question here is that this amp is not fully balanced because the "amp with a single ended output stage directly connected to the XLR connectors.” It is not true. In an Output Transformer coupled design, the primary and secondary coils are isolated. Output stage and input stage are not connected and thus no cross-talk whatsoever can happen.[/size]
 
[size=medium]On the ¼” output, both channels have independent paths, see the black and red wires.  If this wiring scheme applies to a Output Transformer Less design, the circuit will become single-ended. See the second diagram in #17, the v- would have to be a common wire to other channel.  One must be carefull not to take reference from the wrong context to avoid all the misunderstanding.[/size]
 
[size=medium]Also, no phase splitter is needed because the source is XLR (balanced). As for the RCA input, only ½ of the input is used and the efficiency is roughly dropped 50%. In other words, the RCA input will not take advantage of this design. You must use a balanced source to get the best out of the WA22.[/size]
 
[size=medium]Hope that clarifies.[/size]
 
[size=medium]-Jack[/size]

 
 
From the owner's manual Q&A:

"If I connect the WA22 with RCA interconnects, will the amp still provide a balanced signal to the balanced output?

"No, there is no RCA to Balanced conversion in this amp. A source with a true balanced output will work the best with the WA22."

I understand this as balanced in = balanced out through the balanced outputs, and SE in = SE out through either output. I have also read that the SE/TRS headphone jack sounds just as good as the balanced/XLR jack when using a balanced input, but IME that's not the case. When using the balanced inputs(s), the balanced outputs sound better to me.

 
My view mirrors grokit's but goes further to include cake & icing........... say what?! 

 A perfectly prepared and balanced cake can stand on its own. But further benefits may be realized with a well made icing. And that is my take on a balanced amp and balanced cans. Once the amp achieves Common Mode Rejection from balanced inputs, the job is done. It is not necessary to plug into a balanced amp with balanced cans to benefit from CM.
 
The balancing of headphones is an independent mission that may return additional benefits and this is cans-cables-routing-connector dependent. Some benefits may be realized using quality XLR connectors regardless of the cabling. 
 
What's more, TRS is a compact XLR design and can be found on many consoles to save space inside studios. These are my pre-dinner thoughts, subject to change after a full fine meal... and dessert! 

 

[jc9394]

​

Regarding on WA22 balanced out, did you ever plug in both TRS and a balanced cable? It is balanced by design but the way Jack wired the output both balanced and TRS sounded the same. The mist important thing on WA22 is balanced in, not out. I will send my WA22 to Glenn to mod it fully balanced, in and out.

 

[Silent One]

Quote:

 
Regarding on WA22 balanced out, did you ever plug in both TRS and a balanced cable? It is balanced by design but the way Jack wired the output both balanced and TRS sounded the same. The most important thing on WA22 is balanced in, not out. I will send my WA22 to Glenn to mod it fully balanced, in and out.

 
Yes, you'll find that I express as much in my previous post - the emphasis on Balanced In. And yes, I have plugged into both jacks but not into a balanced '22' at the same time with both jacks. If the amp is of true balanced config, and the TRS of a true compact XLR design, it will sound the same in balanced mode - they are both balanced. Some may be of the impression there only exist 3-pin, 4-pin XLR for balanced jacks. You can add TRS to that list as well.
 
Your pursuit is admirable. I was on the sideline when Glenn modded Malter's '22' the same way. As well as the discussion centered around Jack's reply and schematic above.

 

[grokit]

I can't say for sure as the balanced and SE headphone cables that I am comparing aren't identical, and I think there is something to certain headphones responding better than others to balanced cabling so I am not really comparing "apples to apples" in regards to saying that the balanced output sounds better than SE to my ears. The other reason that I think that it can be headphone dependent is that this only happens with some headphones and not others as I mentioned earlier.
 
In regards to TRS plugs being the same as XLR, I would contend that this is true with interconnects but not with headphone cables. I use a pair of 3-pin XLR to stereo TRS cables when I want to go direct from my DAC to my RA160 speaker amp, and in this usage the stereo TRS plugs are +/- to both the L and R channels, using 2 of the 3 XLR pins and a stereo TRS for each side. In the studio, the stereo plugs are used for a single channel, and the mono plugs are for microphones and guitars etc. With a balanced headphone cable, you are doing the same thing using XLR termination, but if you terminate all four +/- L/R wires from the headphone into a single stereo TRS jack you have to join the ground at the plug, which defeats the purpose of using a balanced amp.
 
At least that's the way I understand it

 

[dannie01]

Quote:

For this price, I rather get a Perfectwave P5.

 
Quote:

Me too

 The Furman is a fancy isolation transformer.

 
 
Quote:

I don't know much about the Furman conditioners but you need to get one that is not current limiting.  I have only Running Springs units for that reason.  I have 2 Dukes and a Haley.
 

 
Thanks buddy. 

 

[dannie01]

Quote:

 
Regarding on WA22 balanced out, did you ever plug in both TRS and a balanced cable? It is balanced by design but the way Jack wired the output both balanced and TRS sounded the same. The mist important thing on WA22 is balanced in, not out. I will send my WA22 to Glenn to mod it fully balanced, in and out.

 
I start to regret and miss the WA22................

 
Must let us know how your babe sounds after mod. 

 

[Silent One]

Quote:

I can't say for sure as the balanced and SE headphone cables that I am comparing aren't identical, and I think there is something to certain headphones responding better than others to balanced cabling so I am not really comparing "apples to apples" in regards to saying that the balanced output sounds better than SE to my ears. The other reason that I think that it can be headphone dependent is that this only happens with some headphones and not others as I mentioned earlier.
 
In regards to TRS plugs being the same as XLR, I would contend that this is true with interconnects but not with headphone cables. I use a pair of 3-pin XLR to stereo TRS cables when I want to go direct from my DAC to my RA160 speaker amp, and in this usage the stereo TRS plugs are +/- to both the L and R channels, using 2 of the 3 XLR pins and a stereo TRS for each side. In the studio, the stereo plugs are used for a single channel, and the mono plugs are for microphones and guitars etc. With a balanced headphone cable, you are doing the same thing using XLR termination, but if you terminate all four +/- L/R wires from the headphone into a single stereo TRS jack you have to join the ground at the plug, which defeats the purpose of using a balanced amp.
 
At least that's the way I understand it

 
I think you've got a good understanding, while I am mixed... not mixed up, but rather mixed on the best configuration like... "So, what does it sound like" in the end , so to speak. I think outstanding and poor examples alike can be found. Not sure I'm ready to crown the G.O.A.T. I too, use a 3-pin XLR to TRS adapter. And also use an interface with both separate L/R TRS balanced outs. On the amp, it is the jack's TRS design which must be configured for XLR balanced not just the headphone/plug. This is what Jack states in the above example on the 1/4" plug. Due to the amp being Transformer Coupled, if input received is from a balanced source, the L/R channels on the 1/4" HPO have independent channels. But not in SE mode. This suggests, that when in full swing (true balanced input) all three of the headphone outs are XLR balanced but of different design.
 
Also, balanced headphones aren't really balanced in the true sense of the word. But in audio we like using it! Also, at the heart of balanced architecture is Common Mode rejection. With a fully true balanced source like the W4S DACs for example, even single-ended users will benefit from CM into the amp, just in SE and at half the voltage. 
 
However, I will offer that the more I'm enlightened, I will lighten my feet and change my stance. 

 

[jc9394]

Quote:

I can't say for sure as the balanced and SE headphone cables that I am comparing aren't identical, and I think there is something to certain headphones responding better than others to balanced cabling so I am not really comparing "apples to apples" in regards to saying that the balanced output sounds better than SE to my ears. The other reason that I think that it can be headphone dependent is that this only happens with some headphones and not others as I mentioned earlier.
 
In regards to TRS plugs being the same as XLR, I would contend that this is true with interconnects but not with headphone cables. I use a pair of 3-pin XLR to stereo TRS cables when I want to go direct from my DAC to my RA160 speaker amp, and in this usage the stereo TRS plugs are +/- to both the L and R channels, using 2 of the 3 XLR pins and a stereo TRS for each side. In the studio, the stereo plugs are used for a single channel, and the mono plugs are for microphones and guitars etc. With a balanced headphone cable, you are doing the same thing using XLR termination, but if you terminate all four +/- L/R wires from the headphone into a single stereo TRS jack you have to join the ground at the plug, which defeats the purpose of using a balanced amp.
 
At least that's the way I understand it

 
I have a Q Audio with 4 pin XLR and 4 pin XLR to TRS, to my ears (IMHO/YMMV/etc etc, strictly me only), both volume and sound quality is the same. 

 When I did the same exact test on beta22, the difference is like night and day.  
 
Quote:

 
I start to regret and miss the WA22................

 
Must let us know how your babe sounds after mod. 

 
You are not gonna get it back, will most likely never sell this bad boy.  

 
Mike Malter did said the mod actually improved the balanced out since the TRS is disable until you plug in a TRS adapter.

 

[Silent One]

Me? I'm still working on Woo mono blocks. 

 

 No, not the TOTL. But forgoing a pre-owned WA22 and get a pair of pre-owned 6 Special Editions, fitted & kitted and then block 'em with my pre-amp.

 

[jc9394]

Thanks buddy. 

If you are looking for power conditioner, the Perfectwave will fit the bill much better as it regenerate the power from the wall to perfect sine wave. I had a Power Plant before and love, sold it to fund the Perfectqave P5 but the budget went to another hobby instead. :mad: