[hodgjy]

I'm a little confused. Is this an amp that Woo is loaning you for an objective review, or is this an amp that you purchased for personal use?

Because if this is a loaner for a review, you can't have any preconceived emotions going into the review. Just like jurors being chosen for a trial, you have to remove yourself emotionally from the situation. You can't have expectations or bias going into it. Otherwise, you're doing your readers, and also Woo Audio, a great disservice. If you are giddy about this amp, it will inevitably and unintentionally influence your review.

I'm sorry if this seems totally out of left field, but I'm a professor and a scientist, and central to my profession is removing bias from our methods. I teach this to my students and felt the need to mention something here.

WA6 pictures incoming! I'm very excited.

 

[Austin Morrow]

Quote:

I'm a little confused. Is this an amp that Woo is loaning you for an objective review, or is this an amp that you purchased for personal use?
Because if this is a loaner for a review, you can't have any preconceived emotions going into the review. Just like jurors being chosen for a trial, you have to remove yourself emotionally from the situation. You can't have expectations or bias going into it. Otherwise, you're doing your readers, and also Woo Audio, a great disservice. If you are giddy about this amp, it will inevitably and unintentional influence your review.
I'm sorry if this seems totally out of left field, but I'm a professor and a scientist, and central to my profession is removing bias from our methods. I teach this to my students and felt the need to mention something here.

Hey. I've already made a statement about how my reviews are dealt. Yes, anybody will always be excited when he/she gets things in the mail, but that doesn't effect my review AT ALL. I have no bias, and any say from the company or manufacturer is strictly prohibited due to an influential decision on the review. If a product sucks, I say it sucks, and I will literally loathe it. Yes, it was a review loaner, and I'm already having mixed feelings about it prior to burn in.
 
While I do think it's a nice amp with a very wide, deep, and layered soundstage, good bass impact, very good coherency, and a nice tube-ish thick sound, it's not as amazing as everyone makes it out to be. It's good, and it's a solid performer in it's price range, but it sure isn't anything mind blowing. A first impression score would be about a 6.5/10. We'll have to see what burn in does.
 

 

[hodgjy]

Thanks for answering me. I like what you do and want to see you succeed. Sometimes you have to ask the tough questions so you can judge the responses. The more up front you are about things, the more people will respect your reviews. I certainly will based on your up front response to my concern.

Hey. I've already made a statement about how my reviews are dealt. Yes, anybody will always be excited when he/she gets things in the mail, but that doesn't effect my review AT ALL. I have no bias, and any say from the company or manufacturer is strictly prohibited due to an influential decision on the review. If a product sucks, I say it sucks, and I will literally loathe it. Yes, it was a review loaner, and I'm already having mixed feelings about it prior to burn in.
 
While I do think it's a nice amp with a very wide, deep, and layered soundstage, good bass impact, very good coherency, and a nice tube-ish thick sound, it's not as amazing as everyone makes it out to be. It's good, and it's a solid performer in it's price range, but it sure isn't anything mind blowing. A first impression score would be about a 6.5/10. We'll have to see what burn in does.
 

 

[Ahzari]

Quote:

I'm a little confused. Is this an amp that Woo is loaning you for an objective review, or is this an amp that you purchased for personal use?
Because if this is a loaner for a review, you can't have any preconceived emotions going into the review. Just like jurors being chosen for a trial, you have to remove yourself emotionally from the situation. You can't have expectations or bias going into it. Otherwise, you're doing your readers, and also Woo Audio, a great disservice. If you are giddy about this amp, it will inevitably and unintentionally influence your review.
I'm sorry if this seems totally out of left field, but I'm a professor and a scientist, and central to my profession is removing bias from our methods. I teach this to my students and felt the need to mention something here.

 
While I'm not a professor i've done extensive research throughout my undergraduate / professional education and in my opinion, you really can't take that train of thought (removing bias) and bring it into a headphone hifi enthusiast review process.. removing bias is scientific while music has a very emotional component to it; to try to remove that emotional component you would have to not care at all about the product and in that case be reviewing audio equipment professionally (I don't believe anyone on this thread is doing that) and even then, I think there will always be some sort of bias because we are not machines and reviewing audio related equipment in this situation is not a blind/ double blind test or experiment. 
 
Haha I found this to be a rather unusual comment, no offense though hodgjy..
 
 

 

[hodgjy]

No offense taken. But, we will just have to agree to disagree.

For example, if you have preconceived emotions about an audio review, you will see comments like, "It performed better than expected", "it performed worse than expected", "it's not as good as everyone else thinks", and "I was disappointed in it." These clearly show a bias.

Reviews need to only state the findings. They can be compared to other products. For example, "Amplifier A had much stronger treble than amplifier B." This is how science is done. And reviews are considered scientific if they are to be taken seriously. Can you imagine if emotions found their way into a life science, like biology? "We really wanted medication A to work and cure the disease, but it didn't." Or, "Medication B was twice as effective as medication A at clearing the infection." Which statement is better?

If you bought something, you can have whatever emotions you want. You can love or hate it all you want. But, if you are giving an unbiased review, you have to stick only to your findings. Readers and manufacturers are counting on that. This is why you see many reviewers state all their financial interests as a footnote in their reviews. They can't have any conflict of interest clouding their findings. In court, I'm sure many trials re very emotional. This is why they screen jurors in order to put together the most neutral group pretrial.

 
While I'm not a professor i've done extensive research throughout my undergraduate / professional education and in my opinion, you really can't take that train of thought (removing bias) and bring it into a headphone hifi enthusiast review process.. removing bias is scientific while music has a very emotional component to it; to try to remove that emotional component you would have to not care at all about the product and in that case be reviewing audio equipment professionally (I don't believe anyone on this thread is doing that) and even then, I think there will always be some sort of bias because we are not machines and reviewing audio related equipment in this situation is not a blind/ double blind test or experiment. 
 
Haha I found this to be a rather unusual comment, no offense though hodgjy..
 
 

 

[Clayton SF]

In addition to great music I love food and good restaurants as well. And good beer and and wine, too. And I get totally ecstatic in anticipation of a great place to eat when a friend tells me that there's this place that he or she has discovered that serves great food and wine (in his or her opinion of course) that I should check out. But when I actually go to the place and start to taste the food and experience the experience, I am still able to make up my own mind of what I like and what I don't like--and all points in between. And sometimes I've felt that my friends are right--it is a great place to dine; and sometimes I've said--eh--not so good. I trust and respect my friends' opinions and ultimately formulate my own.

 

[Ahzari]

Quote:

No offense taken. But, we will just have to agree to disagree.
For example, if you have preconceived emotions about an audio review, you will see comments like, "It performed better than expected", "it performed worse than expected", "it's not as good as everyone else thinks", and "I was disappointed in it." These clearly show a bias.
Reviews need to only state the findings. They can be compared to other products. For example, "Amplifier A had much stronger treble than amplifier B." This is how science is done. And reviews are considered scientific if they are to be taken seriously. Can you imagine if emotions found their way into a life science, like biology? "We really wanted medication A to work and cure the disease, but it didn't." Or, "Medication B was twice as effective as medication A at clearing the infection." Which statement is better?
If you bought something, you can have whatever emotions you want. You can love or hate it all you want. But, if you are giving an unbiased review, you have to stick only to your findings. Readers and manufacturers are counting on that. This is why you see many reviewers state all their financial interests as a footnote in their reviews. They can't have any conflict of interest clouding their findings. In court, I'm sure many trials re very emotional. This is why they screen jurors in order to put together the most neutral group pretrial.

 
I understand what you're saying, I have read many reviews that have lead me to purchase products that I ended up not liking myself (I was initially annoyed, but I learned to read reviews knowing there is bias - and that has helped me greatly), but even so called unbiased reviews will not suit the whole population right? Its never going to be like a biology, chemistry, physics experiment where you have a hypothesis and replicate the experiment to validate the results. Even if a large group of individuals are reviewing a product to create some generalized / normative feeling regarding it there are still outliers (people that for example thought the product was awful) that are not normally published especially in audio and electronics reviews (because thats bad for marketing)... for these reasons I feel like there is always bias.
 Anyways, at the end of the day.. Woo amps are great, thats all that matters right? 

 


Quote:

In addition to great music I love food and good restaurants as well. And good beer and and wine, too. And I get totally ecstatic in anticipation of a great place to eat when a friend tells me that there's this place that he or she has discovered that serves great food and wine (in his or her opinion of course) that I should check out. But when I actually go to the place and start to taste the food and experience the experience, I am still able to make up my own mind of what I like and what I don't like--and all points in between. And sometimes I've felt that my friends are right--it is a great place to dine; and sometimes I've said--eh--not so good. I trust and respect my friends' opinions and ultimately formulate my own.

+1
 

 

[hodgjy]

I don't want to say a whole lot more about this because this conversation has the potential to derail this thread. But, I'll say where I'm coming from.

I do research for a living. When I go into an experiment, I don't go into it excited or thinking I'm going to love or hate it. I don't go into it hoping it's going to work or fail. It is what it is. I do it and get results. Success or failure are equally important. I report the results. This is how it is because people are counting on unbiased results. My love, hate, hope, excitement don't matter and the people reading my results don't care what my emotions are, either. They just want the results. If we go into something hoping it will work, we will sometimes find ways to justify it working when it may not have really done so. Same with failure and sabbotage. The reader needs to know that any emotions or bias didn't taint the results or interpretations. I can't have excitement or disappointment. I can only have results and interpretation. Once emotions creep in, it's no longer science. It's persuasion.

In addition to great music I love food and good restaurants as well. And good beer and and wine, too. And I get totally ecstatic in anticipation of a great place to eat when a friend tells me that there's this place that he or she has discovered that serves great food and wine (in his or her opinion of course) that I should check out. But when I actually go to the place and start to taste the food and experience the experience, I am still able to make up my own mind of what I like and what I don't like--and all points in between. And sometimes I've felt that my friends are right--it is a great place to dine; and sometimes I've said--eh--not so good. I trust and respect my friends' opinions and ultimately formulate my own.

 

[sillysally]

Quote:

No offense taken. But, we will just have to agree to disagree.
For example, if you have preconceived emotions about an audio review, you will see comments like, "It performed better than expected", "it performed worse than expected", "it's not as good as everyone else thinks", and "I was disappointed in it." These clearly show a bias.
Reviews need to only state the findings. They can be compared to other products. For example, "Amplifier A had much stronger treble than amplifier B." This is how science is done. And reviews are considered scientific if they are to be taken seriously. Can you imagine if emotions found their way into a life science, like biology? "We really wanted medication A to work and cure the disease, but it didn't." Or, "Medication B was twice as effective as medication A at clearing the infection." Which one is better?

I am sorry but you really can't equity scientific findings to a opinionated headphone amp reviews. We all hear things differently, plus the fact that a headphone amp is just one part of of a audio rig. As I am sure you know, your audio rig is only as good as the weakest link in your audio chain.
When you read a opinion of about a amp, headphones, source player, DAC, ect, you take it with a grain of salt, but compare to what others are saying about the same component and there opinions.
 
Example, I have just gone into the Electrostatic world of amps and headphone. For me to form a good opinion of high end Electrostatic amps, it probably will take at year of comparing amps for my Stax headphones and rest of my rig. Going to a headphone meet is not really going to tell me anything, I need to hear the amp on my rig, in my room and for many days.
 
btw, i don't think anything will "derail this thread".

 

[Ahzari]

Quote:

btw, i don't think anything will "derail this thread".

+1 

 

[Austin Morrow]

All right everyone. No need to start a ruckus about reviews. Let's stay back on track. How's everyone enjoying their Woo's?

 

[Silent One]

Quote:

 
btw, i don't think anything will "derail this thread".

+2. 

 This thread continues to prove resilient without fail. Although, there were some close calls in 2011... 

 

[hodgjy]

You're right about that!

i don't think anything will "derail this thread".

And you're also right that audio reviews are subjective. That's why we need to do our best to minimize as much subjectivity as possible. We can talk about interpretations of bass response, sound stage, treble, etc. That's all we can do and all one can hope for. I understand that and accept that. What we need to be cautious about are emotions leading into review. Audio reviews are subjective enough as it is without preconceived biases fueled by excitement, dread, etc.

If science is to be taken seriously, there can be no emotions. If reviews are to be taken seriously, there can be no emotions. There can be no happiness or disappointment. There can only be observations.

No one takes Stereophile reviews seriously anymore because they review products made by their sponsors. Of course they recommend them all. If a reviewer is excited or upset to having received a review sample, that puts the review in question. I made a point to say something about that to Austin. He's learning and has a bright future, and I'd like to see him succeed with his little review gig. I said what I did in that spirit.

 

[emremusic]

One thing I would love to see, is more blindfold tests. Not too many people on Head-fi seems to want to do this. I know can can jams or other meets may not be the best places for this but I would love to see blindfold tests of amp, cans, dacs. With devices that can be used as a/b switch to really isolate the difference. 
 
Having said that, there are some things that a a blindfold test may not be able to tell, which is build quality. I know my 6SE sounds great, I love it. But I can feel that it's going to last a long time, which is important to me. It was costly, but I wanted something to last me for years and years. - Like the old saying, spend a lot of money fist- you cry once...
 
For example my Total Bit head amp from headroom.. Initially the volume adjustor was very cheap build. After 2 months the cross feed stopped working. After 9 months of normal use, the jacks stopped working. Now its only a paper weight. (an ugly one at that) I know it's only $150 compared my 6SE which is worth ten times that. But I don't think I will buy anything from Headroom again. If they can sell something so cheaply made, I don't trust any of their products, even their $2500 dac/amps. 
 
My woo is built like a tank, and I don't think it's going anywhere. 
 
Quote:

You're right about that!

And you're also right that audio reviews are subjective. That's why we need to do our best to minimize as much subjectivity as possible. We can talk about interpretations of bass response, sound stage, treble, etc. That's all we can do and all one can hope for. I understand that and accept that. What we need to be cautious about are emotions leading into review. Audio reviews are subjective enough as it is without preconceived biases fueled by excitement, dread, etc.
If science is to be taken seriously, there can be no emotions. If reviews are to be taken seriously, there can be no emotions. There can be no happiness or disappointment. There can only be observations.
No one takes Stereophile reviews seriously anymore because they review products made by their sponsors. Of course they recommend them all. If a reviewer is excited or upset to having received a review sample, that puts the review in question. I made a point to say something about that to Austin. He's learning and has a bright future, and I'd like to see him succeed with his little review gig. I said what I did in that spirit.

 

 

[Dubstep Girl]

i really want a ps1000