The discovery thread!

[Pylaczynski]

From the hardness, or chemical reaction? Do you have any of this research in writing? I only ask because I can't find absolutely one thing written about this subject, and I consider myself pretty good at searching. Do you have sources? Palladium is OK then?

There should not be a problem from chemical perspective as galvanic voltage of both metals (gold plated copper in contact with rhodium plating on the silver plated copper) is very very close, but from friction and material transfer due to hardness difference this pair may cause the peeling of gold plating.

However however - based on the table below the gold vs rhodium pair is in fact quite good in terms of wear and tear. Well, as everything the more you read the more complex the topic gets
https://technology.matthey.com/article/10/1/2-8/

 

[Redcarmoose]

Unfortunately your whole message was a long Penon marketing piece so there is no need to repost it as I am not working for them. Salient points are adequate that is unless you do not believe you can stand behind the individual points in your own post in which case why post a marketing piece...?

Also please let's not try to imply that reading the whole post made for any sort of alternate messaging...

My post has never been edited - it has remained the same throughout...

Sure... but you were the one asking for research when someone provided their own experience and opinion about something you posted that posited much without providing any means of evidence.

I think some consistency would probably be appreciated when you want to state something like:

As I said that has to work both ways - the cover of subjectivity cannot just flow in the direction of your own beliefs and not others if they happen to contradict a marketing piece you decided to post...

You posted a Penon marketing piece verbatim with a link to the product and a price. Your link is to a store not to an announcement on a company website or social media as others on this forum regularly provide. Surely this is the definition of a FINANCIAL INTEREST being inserted. I was not touching on your own FINANCIAL INCENTIVE to post this marketing piece... That is a wider discussion on how incentives from persistent associations are defined which includes but does not limit itself to monies.

You then tried to suggest another members comments were not factual because they contradicted a marketing piece that you apparently have no play in. Why so sensitive, especially as you state that you have not even tried this product to verify those claims either subjectively or through objective study?

First off yes, I apologize for the 2nd half of my original post not being delineated as to being pulled directly from the Penon web site. I have further now put the marketing script in green. And I agree it would be confusing if you were to see that at the top that I’m writing that I have yet to try the Rhodium Plated cable, then the second half talks about benefits from such material.

The reason for such marketing piece is of course that it explains the use of the plug, of course you knew that. If you don’t believe in such products and their qualities, then it could be construed as BS. And I’m perfectly OK with such attitudes. But some of us are believers, that’s all.

As far as financial incentive, every bit of product posted here in the Discovery Thread is for sale, of course you knew that. So? Nothing very different in regards to my post?

The fact is much of this surfacing material does add something to the sound. You are free to believe or not believe such realities take place. I will be the first to include that I have no engineering training, I don’t manufacturer any products myself, I’m simply a listener, so take that for what its worth.

 

[Redcarmoose]

There should not be a problem from chemical perspective as galvanic voltage of both metals (gold plated copper in contact with rhodium plating on the silver plated copper) is very very close, but from friction and material transfer due to hardness difference this pair may cause the peeling of gold plating.

However however - based on the table below the gold vs rhodium pair is in fact quite good in terms of wear and tear. Well, as everything the more you read the more complex the topic gets
https://technology.matthey.com/article/10/1/2-8/

Lol, I can only imagine it starts to get complicated very fast. So do you think a Rhodium plated plug would cause trouble, more trouble than a gold plated plug?

 

[Redcarmoose]

Once I was choosing a new cable and placed an order with rhodium plug. CEMA seller advised me to choose gold plug because there was several cases of dissatisfied customers due to damage of outs plating. Before this case I ordered from CEMA rhodium plugs predominantly for aesthetics.
Edit.
I never met, used and even heard about palladium plugs before. It would be interesting.

Well, palladium is one plug that I do have some experience with, and it makes a small percentage difference, in that the sound has more heft. Though probably in reality it’s very slight. But all of us are adding everything up, the IEMs, the DAP, the cable, the fit from ear-tips.....(and now maybe the plug too) eventually everything does add up. It adds a small percentage of a bigger percentage depending on the synergy and how you are trying to focus the sound. That is if your a believer that this stuff works or not. For me before I only had about 4 aftermarket cables, maybe six years ago, then I started to really believe such things made a worthwhile difference.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I haven't research reports. This information I got from CEMA after complaints of their clients. Later I met the same statement somewhere here - on head-fi.

But after researching CEMA products many of their cables are still offered with rhodium plated plugs, I find this surprising? So they’re telling you that their clients are complaining, yet they sell them still in abundance?

Once I was choosing a new cable and placed an order with rhodium plug. CEMA seller advised me to choose gold plug because there was several cases of dissatisfied customers due to damage of outs plating. Before this case I ordered from CEMA rhodium plugs predominantly for aesthetics.
Edit.
I never met, used and even heard about palladium plugs before. It would be interesting.

I agree they look way different than gold plugs, they even look harder?

 

[PhonoPhi]

Just FYI, most gold plating is not real gold so don't compare the hardness of real gold to real rhodium. The sound depends also a lot on the thickness of the plating, so one rhodium plug can sound drastically different from another.

Also I hesitate to get CEMA's plugs because they make fake Eidolic plugs and they call their purple coloured plugs (just painted with a thin layer of purple paint on their 'gold-plated' plugs) 'red copper'.

The following plugs are fake Eidolic copies made by CEMA, avoid.

What is not "real gold"?
Noble metals are used to avoid oxidation that causes severe signal deterioration.
.Hardened gold" is used but still the hardness of this plating (mostly 85+% gold, if you look) is far below that of rhodium:

https://artisanplating.com/rhodium-plating-finishes/

What concerns me more with using connectors with different platings for in/out are the metal heterojunctions with all kinds of potentials at heterointetfaces (e.g. of a thermocouple) created similar to potential problems with soldering that for relaively small voltages used to drive IEM are of higher relative significance.

P. S. The marketing moose is totally xxxx loose - reflects the state of this hobby - shouting even most profound non-sensical gibberish louder gets through the gullible brains as TV ads, profoundly sad...
"That is my personal audiophile/marketer experience but where is your scientific/research documented proof"....

 

[Carpet]

Juzear Clear arrived. Sounds good out of the box, looking forward to having a better listen over the weekend.

 

[Pylaczynski]

Lol, I can only imagine it starts to get complicated very fast. So do you think a Rhodium plated plug would cause trouble, more trouble than a gold plated plug?

Well. I really don't know after this reading.
But by my personal common sense I would rather use 2 same metals in contact. Especially since I cannot really rationalize using different ones because I cannot hear any sonic changes nor I cannot find a good reasons why they would be there in the first place. The only benefit (which is quite questionable) is that rhodium plated connector looks cool with right cable hardware and sheath
At least this is my experience + it is up to my knowledge

 

[saldsald]

What is not "real gold"?
Noble metals are used to avoid oxidation that causes severe signal deterioration.
.Hardened gold" is used but still the hardness of this plating (mostly 85+% gold, if you look) is far below that of rhodium:

https://artisanplating.com/rhodium-plating-finishes/

What concerns me more with using connectors with different platings for in/out are the metal heterojunctions with all kinds of potentials at heterointetfaces (e.g. of a thermocouple) created similar to potential problems with soldering that for relaively small voltages used to drive IEM are of higher relative significance.

P. S. The marketing moose is totally xxxx loose - reflects the state of this hobby - shouting even most profound non-sensical gibberish louder gets through the gullible brains as TV ads, profoundly sad...
"That is my personal audiophile/marketer experience but where is your scientific/research documented proof"....

It's a gold coloured chemical with trace amount of gold, not pure gold.

 

[Redcarmoose]

We just reviewed the new Sivga Luan!

https://www.headfonia.com/sivga-luan-review/

Do you ever get a little behind in your reviews?

 

[PhonoPhi]

It's a gold coloured chemical with trace amount of gold, not pure gold.

What "gold coloured chemical" exactly?? Please explain based on your scientific/engineering background! We are not talking marketing material and "personal experiences" here, right?

The coating must me conductive, so some metal/alloy. Then, if brass/bronze - that will get tarnished fast and will create immediate conductivity problems, as I tried to explain.

If you possibly try to think about titanium nitride, TiN, coating used in tools - not in electrical connectors.

While gold is expensive, the coating is very thin, around 1 micron (do the math, about 2 mg per 1 square cm area, at $3000 per troy ounce - 2 cents of gold) , so even cheaper gold-plated connectors simply use minimal thickness that incidentally wears out fast.

 

[saldsald]

What "gold coloured chemical" exactly?? Please explain based on your scientific/engineering background! We are not talking marketing material and "personal experiences" here, right?

The coating must me conductive, so some metal/alloy. Then, if brass/bronze - that will get tarnished fast and will create immediate conductivity problems, as I tried to explain.

If you possibly try to think about titanium nitride, TiN, coating used in tools - not in electrical connectors.

While gold is expensive, the coating is very thin, around 1 micron (do the math, about 2 mg per 1 square cm area, at $3000 per troy ounce - 2 cents of gold) , so even cheaper gold-plated connectors simply use minimal thickness that incidentally wears out fast.

Some plugs are plated with gold and some are plated with this so called chemical gold. I do not have the chemical composition of exactly what it is but it is called gold-infused palladiim alloy. The gold colour you see on most plugs has a brown tint while the more expensive plugs plated with actual gold are lighter in colour, more towards silver colour likely due to the nickle plating underneath.

Do not keep on guessing, you can ask these makers. The honest ones will tell you they are not really gold plated.

 

[PhonoPhi]

Some plugs are plated with gold and some are plated with this so called chemical gold. I do not have the chemical composition of exactly what it is but it is called gold-infused palladiim alloy. The gold colour you see on most plugs has a brown tint while the more expensive plugs plated with actual gold are lighter in colour, more towards silver colour likely due to the nickle plating underneath.

Do not keep on guessing, you can ask these makers. The honest ones will tell you they are not really gold plated.

"Gold- infused" sound like marketing materials, not scientific.
Why do you ask me to look?
Why don't you look at the current cost of palladium, and basics of electroplating (alloys, specifically) - to understand that it makes most sense just to use pure gold ("hardened gold" is better but requires more efforts). So palladium-based platings are not cheaper now, but remain "niche" targetting gullible audiophiles with "gold-infused" - why cite them instead of scientific evidence?

I did also a simple cost analysis to further support my point that most gold plating is simply gold, cheapened by the thickness, so I will rest here.

 

[saldsald]

"Gold- infused" sound like marketing materials, not scientific.
Why do you ask me to look?
Why don't you look at the current cost of palladium, and basics of electroplating (alloys, specifically) - to understand that it makes most sense just to use pure gold ("hardened gold" is better but requires more efforts). So palladium-based platings are not cheaper now, but remain "niche" targetting gullible audiophiles with "gold-infused" - why cite them instead of scientific evidence?

I did also a simple cost analysis to further support my point that most gold plating is simply gold, cheapened by the thickness, so I will rest here.

Yup, you must be correct with all your marketing researches.

 

[r31ya]

An article on Rhodium vs Gold that i found on quick google, not sure on the validity but interesting read.

https://perkune.com/audiophile-difference-rhodium-or-gold/

Today, which is October 17th 2021, the price of Gold is $56.82 per gram, and the cost of Rhodium is $344.01 per gram. Rhodium is a complex, silvery, durable metal with high reflectance. And does not usually form an oxide, even when heated. Rhodium is used as an alloying agent for hardening and improving the corrosion resistance of Electrical contacts. And great value for small electrical resistance, trim and stable contact resistance. And corrosion resistance.
The connectors of the more expensive electronics cables, such as audio, video and USB cables, are Gold. The benefit of using Gold by audio-visual experts often criticise gold connectors as unnecessary for most consumer. However, the use of Gold in other applications in electronic sliding contacts in highly humid or corrosive atmospheres. And used for connections with a very high failure cost (specific computers, communications equipment, spacecraft, jet aircraft engines).