The discovery thread!
Mar 9, 2024 at 5:38 PM Post #96,766 of 101,042
This post needs to be pinned as the definition of "there's no accounting for taste" and "sound is subjective" that we constantly hear in this thread LOL Disappointed in the Aful P8 and Blessing 3, but satisfied with the IE200?!?! PIN THIS! That way anyone who ever disputes this, can have this thrown in their face forevermore!

This is not a cut on you, passie42, but a sheer definition of "we all hear differently."
Some of us should get together and do an “open source” research project to relate subjective listening preferences to listeners’s habit and background (loudness, music type, listening environment, cultural and demographic background). We can publish the findings on Arxiv

Imagine if we can collab with Listeners and Resolve 🤔
 
Mar 9, 2024 at 7:08 PM Post #96,767 of 101,042
I was not planning to buy another IEM soon but the Kiwi Ears Crinacle have made me extremely curious… I hope some reviews will pop-up before I buy them blind and (again) will be disappointed. To many, way to expensive, IEM’s let me down…
The Thieaudio Hype 2, 1more Penta P50, Aful Performer8, Blessing 3, Kato…all major disappointing for me… For now I’ll stick with the IE200 and MP145….
In my experience, if you're using reviews/feedback from Head-fi, you first have to vet the individual:
1. Do they talk in superlatives
2. Are their posts nothing more than an out right copy and paste, of the vendor/manufacturer's advertisement, for said product
3. Do they tend to have a new number one, every 5 weeks
4. What's their preferred sound
5. What are their favored genres

The first three are easy disqualifiers. The last two are what I use, before committing to mid-fi purchases. Since my discretionary funds are near and dear to my backside (sitting in my wallet :ksc75smile: ) . There are forum members, that I take their opinions more seriously than others, but their preferred sound signature differs from mine; so when they expound on the virtues of a frequency response range that's not their priority . . .
 
Mar 9, 2024 at 9:41 PM Post #96,768 of 101,042
Haven't listened to my Fearless Shangri-la in AGES! Maybe over a year, as I wasn't too thrilled with the bass tones (heavy and slightly dark due to slight mid bass bleed), but I decided to pull them out last night, and paired them with the Sony A306, and holy moley, what a revelation! It was almost like hearing these for the first time ever, as in, I don't remember them sounding this good?! The bass is present and punchy, with excellent sub bass rumble, but the mid bass isn't as intrusive, as the highs shimmer and shine much more in line with the rest of the frequencies. It's definitely more in line with how HBB reviewed them way back, which prompted me to jump on them when they were on sale. I played them thru some other DAPS, and they were pretty good, but thru the A306, it's a magical pairing, and I'm sticking with them for now. Maybe switch up to the Trio later tonight?
Hey how is the Sony A306? Thinking about getting a HIByM300 or this. Priced at same ballpark where I live. For nostalgia Sony, but hiby is getting good reviews.
 
Mar 9, 2024 at 10:30 PM Post #96,769 of 101,042
Hey how is the Sony A306? Thinking about getting a HIByM300 or this. Priced at same ballpark where I live. For nostalgia Sony, but hiby is getting good reviews.
It's clunky with the Android OS, but so is the Hiby and the iBasso, so it just comes with that territory. As for the sound and the features, it's one of my best DAPS, it's got that fantastic Sony EQ, the creamy yet detailed Sony house sound, and it's palm of your hand tiny. Is it as good as the WM1A? In some ways, yes it is. With some IEM's, I prefer the A306. I use it more than the iBasso and the A55, but because the A55 isn't android based, the battery is many hours longer than the A306.
 
Mar 9, 2024 at 11:09 PM Post #96,770 of 101,042
It's clunky with the Android OS, but so is the Hiby and the iBasso, so it just comes with that territory. As for the sound and the features, it's one of my best DAPS, it's got that fantastic Sony EQ, the creamy yet detailed Sony house sound, and it's palm of your hand tiny. Is it as good as the WM1A? In some ways, yes it is. With some IEM's, I prefer the A306. I use it more than the iBasso and the A55, but because the A55 isn't android based, the battery is many hours longer than the A306.
How is the battery? I remember wanting to buy an entry level sony Android DAP, but it has notoriously poor battery so I chickened out. Not sure if it was the A306 or an older model.

AFAIK, the Hiby M300 is just stock Android with some audio settings hidden in the drop down menu. You can put whatever app you want on it. It uses the same SoC as the R6P2 and R8II, but with less RAM. However the M300 lacks the system-wide lossless like the more expensive ones. I’m thinking about borrowing one for a shoot out against the R3II
 
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Mar 9, 2024 at 11:21 PM Post #96,771 of 101,042
Some of us should get together and do an “open source” research project to relate subjective listening preferences to listeners’s habit and background (loudness, music type, listening environment, cultural and demographic background). We can publish the findings on Arxiv

Imagine if we can collab with Listeners and Resolve 🤔
Good idea to materialise. Me and @baskingshark actually discussed it to put up a database on listening preferences a few years ago. He share this idea to me before.

@baskingshark This idea should be materialise if ever given that @o0genesis0o is also agree in this idea.
 
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Mar 10, 2024 at 12:05 AM Post #96,772 of 101,042
How is the battery? I remember wanting to buy an entry level sony Android DAP, but it has notoriously poor battery so I chickened out. Not sure if it was the A306 or an older model.

AFAIK, the Hiby M300 is just stock Android with some audio settings hidden in the drop down menu. You can put whatever app you want on it. It uses the same SoC as the R6P2 and R8II, but with less RAM. However the M300 lacks the system-wide lossless like the more expensive ones. I’m thinking about borrowing one for a shoot out against the R3II
Think @Joe Bloggs audio filters can be used via mseb on hiby app . YouTubeSuper review chap had a rave about the m300 overall.

Absence of System wide lossless means I can't run apple music app on it and get the hi-res lossless? Or do you mean something else?
 
Mar 10, 2024 at 12:34 AM Post #96,773 of 101,042
Absence of System wide lossless means I can't run apple music app on it and get the hi-res lossless? Or do you mean something else?
Whatever comes out of those music app would be resampled by Android to 48kHz (or 44kHz?) if you listen via the built-in DAC. I think HiBy App can overcome this and output hi-res lossless, but YouTube and others would be resampled.

IMHO, it does not matter.

I’m more concerned about the weak amp of this device, though I guess it would handle something like AFUL P8 just fine. Likely not the Magic One and definitely none of those FatFreq bass cannon. On the other hand, 10+ hour battery for an Android DAP is a great thing, assuming that Hiby can deliver that promise.
 
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Mar 10, 2024 at 12:53 AM Post #96,774 of 101,042
Whatever comes out of those music app would be resampled by Android to 48kHz (or 44kHz?) if you listen via the built-in DAC. I think HiBy App can overcome this and output hi-res lossless, but YouTube and others would be resampled.

IMHO, it does not matter.

I’m more concerned about the weak amp of this device, though I guess it would handle something like AFUL P8 just fine. Likely not the Magic One and definitely none of those FatFreq bass cannon. On the other hand, 10+ hour battery for an Android DAP is a great thing, assuming that Hiby can deliver that promise.
Hmmm what's the advantage for them as a device to resample stuff in this way?

Oh didn't know it was such a weak amp that it will struggle with aful one , wonder if it will play my planar Sivga Nightingale. Guess for that, I can attach fc6 dac etc to m300 and play thro it.

Yeah battery looks good. Though am curious about "creamy Sony sound" as freewheel... Puts it. Greed!
 
Mar 10, 2024 at 1:00 AM Post #96,775 of 101,042
Hmmm what's the advantage for them as a device to resample stuff in this way?

Oh didn't know it was such a weak amp that it will struggle with aful one , wonder if it will play my planar Sivga Nightingale. Guess for that, I can attach fc6 dac etc to m300 and play thro it.

Yeah battery looks good. Though am curious about "creamy Sony sound" as freewheel... Puts it. Greed!
IMHO, just double check the battery life of the sony you are having your eye on. If Sony has fixed the battery problem, it’s a good idea to try one Sony to see what the fuss is about.

The amp thing depends a great deal on the IEM itself, and IMHO, you feel the effect of that “scaling” differently depending on the song you listen. I’m finalising the notes of the Jialai Carat and found that it loses most of its bass impact and texture with apple dongle, but that difference is only crystal clear when listening to bassy electronic music. Listening to a simple song with one voice and one guitar does not show much difference between apple dongle and DX300 with the same IEM, besides the fact that the IEM is more sibilant with Apple dongle.
 
Mar 10, 2024 at 1:25 AM Post #96,776 of 101,042
How is the battery? I remember wanting to buy an entry level sony Android DAP, but it has notoriously poor battery so I chickened out. Not sure if it was the A306 or an older model.

AFAIK, the Hiby M300 is just stock Android with some audio settings hidden in the drop down menu. You can put whatever app you want on it. It uses the same SoC as the R6P2 and R8II, but with less RAM. However the M300 lacks the system-wide lossless like the more expensive ones. I’m thinking about borrowing one for a shoot out against the R3II
The battery is better than the previous A105, which is the one you speak of, which was a notoriously bad battery, and the A306 is better. I'd say 6-7 hours of continuous playback before you have to recharge. I sleep with my DAPs running, and if I play my A306 fully charged when I go to bed at 12AM, it will be blinking for recharge when I wake up at 8AM. So take that for what it's worth?
 
Mar 10, 2024 at 3:18 AM Post #96,778 of 101,042
This little dongle(fiio ka11) is surprisingly strong. Powers the Crimson pretty easily. Also powers the Scarlet Mini! Which I tried at CJNYC. It's good that I only had a short demo, because I think all dat bass would wear out its welcome after a while. I will have to rethink what is "above average" and "a ton" of bass quantity now...Interesting how exposure to one thing can change your perception about another thing. But still, it was cool to hear it, and the mids were clean-ish, or at least more than I expected them to be.

If you ever do any very quiet listening though, this dongle can be too powerful. Even at the lowest volume setting, I've had to switch to the apple dongle for listening to something before bed.
 

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Mar 10, 2024 at 4:34 AM Post #96,780 of 101,042
I'm sorry but that would be very different analogy. The frequency response graph is very different from graph that record track of the song. The coupler works as "microphone" that capture the response from the IEM, with sine sweeps.
sine sweeps 20hz-20,000hz every frequencies, so the software (in this case REW) will output a sine sweep from 20hz until 20,000hz and then capture "how big the bass at 20hz on blessing 2 for example, and how big the bass on 20hz with the same sine sweep with blessing 3 for example, move to 21hz, 22hz, 23hz until 20,000hz
So here you can see how big the sub bass on 35hz in blessing 2, compared with sub bass of another IEM on the same 35hz, or any other frequencies.
This is how the FR graphs process works. It's not like capture the graph from a song.
the graph from a music track will be like this instead :
1709966501549.png

This contains all vocals, percussions, other instruments but we cant actually "hear" from see this graph, meanwhile totally different from frequency response graph
graph quintet.png
graph by Mr Sally Super Review

This is the example of Frequency graph, its clearly showing from neutral point (350hz-800hz), the sub bass on 30hz is up by +10db increment.
Then if you know what instrument or what sound sit there, you will be able to imagine, can't be piano or cymbals there right? Sound of the contra bass are there, or low strum bass guitar, or extension of kick drum if deep enough.

Move up to mid bass, around 100hz, these area, where the first kick drum hit the transient of the kick drum, the texture of the bass, the upper notes of bass guitar, the toms of the drum are heard here. This quintet is tuned well and +5db from neutral point (350hz-800hz) is ideal for me, it provides enough warmness and texture, while not bleeding to the mids

Now to high mids around 2-4khz, the pinna gain, these are emphasize of female vocals, too high on this 2-4khz area, will lead to shouty vocals. Too low will result to recessed female vocals. Together with all instruments down there, the piano, the guitars, saxophone, trumpet on those frequencies

Mid trebles on 8khz, where the grapher usually put the resonance peak here to have standardize FR, sometimes can shown higher than it should because of the resonance peak, but sometimes just as accurate, this 8khz are trails of hihats, cymbals and air, and can perceived as "low air" and can be boosted to have wider soundstage perception

upper trebles / extension past 10khz, is where technicalities sit, on around 12-13khz thats why lot of TOTL sets are having this region bigger than neutral point (see 350hz-800hz level) while 15khz are more airy presentation.

That just a glimpse of "basic" understanding to read the graph, once you know how to read the graph, it can be very useful , to save your wallet mostly

More advanced reading can be put this example:
how "thin or thick mids are produced?" its about the balance between lower mids (300-500hz) and high mids (2-4khz) region, the further they are apart the thinner the mids, the closer they are, the thicker the mids. So big bass doesn't guarantee you have thick mids, for example " Moondrop Variations.

safe trebles but sounded "tizzy" = balance between lower trebles on 6khz and the trails of its transient that lies on 8khz

and there are also "mandatory dips" like on 7khz for examples, to avoid sibilances because of the "too much trebles at the same time" and as opposite there are little peaks, that can be heard as "transient attack" that perceived as crispy or sharp note attack that have correlation with "resolution"


----------------

That why I said this all like easy to learn, hard to master thingy, and you can only get better by having the measurement rig and do measuring again and again, comparing the result with your ears again and again and again, like years, not months, not days
The other way to help is with playing with EQ, yes I like to borrow @o0genesis0o words graphs is like EQ, its similar the FR graph is reflect how manufacturer permanently EQed their IEMs, it's how they tuned the IEM. with EQing we can know what sound sit on certain frequencies, maybe like try to EQ 4khz , the presence region by +5db, oh the IEM now sounded high resolution suddenly, crispy guitar notes with sharp attack. put down that and EQ other frequency, maybe 50hz, ow the punch of the bass become so impactful but without bleed the mids, and any other frequencies.

I learned the hard way really. I spent more than $10,000 for audio hobbies, fight sessions with wife, time, etc and guess what?
$100 for the measurement rig
more than $9,900 for hit and miss IEMs (well also count for DAPs, dongles, eartips, etc)
The graph reading can save you thousand bucks, without blind buying

So again I would say the graphs isn't 100% accurate, but quite helpful like give you 70% of how the tonality like, like a said "synopsis" of the movie before you decide to buy the ticket. but lot things can't captured by this rig, like bass smears, how dampened is the sound, the cross over below the highest FR (FR only capture the highest sine sweeps sound), etc.

graph uintet vs quartet.png

For Example if I have Quartet, and I want to buy Quintet. aside from friend's recommendation you can compare it directly with your current IEM as cue
They have roughly similar sub bass, but at 100hz, the Quartet is more bass bleed, for me it's a good thing but for someone who prefer bigger mid bass than quartet, they can save the money because the quintet will be lower in midbass

the Quintet have forwarded high mids at 2-4khz than Quartet, if that your thing, you can go ahead or you're looking for more trebles, see 6khz until 15khz, definitely more trebles and details and extension.

This is just a simple example to make it as basic comparison, but once you at some point you can really know roughly how the sound of the IEM just by looking at the graph, again the rough tonality around 70% aside from the things that cant be capture by the rig like I said above.



Yes correct, definitely agree.


exactly







These are real case now :
graph kiwiears.png

see 10-15khz, definitely Quintet have the extension of the trebles while the rest aren't (rolled off). So when I buy Orchestra lite and expect good treble extension, it could be wrong move, I can save money and buy Quintet instead.
Thanks for this. Love all the knowledge you have packed in. But I think you misunderstood my comparison. I wasn't thinking about the graph as in track recording, but instead lines of notes such as:
1000012429.jpg


Love the graph. Great idea adding other iems for comparison. More please!
I'm very pleased that you like it. It's easy and straight-forward. I'll be incorporating that into all my reviews going forward. I need to review all of my sets at some point.
 

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