[SilentFrequency]

For anyone looking for a laugh on a rainy Thursday evening:

Sony will sell a “premium sound” microSDXC card to audiophiles in Japan

Thinking about it, it's such an obvious scam I'm surprised we haven't seen it before.

I don't get this?

Why are SONY which are a totally major brand making this product?

I would have thought SONY as a trusted brand but now I'm totally confused?

 

[liamstrain]

They are a trusted brand, but they also are profit driven, and if labeling something differently will drive sales, they they will do so. This is true of essentially ALL brands. Make your decisions based on good reasoning and good evidence - not a companies marketing.
 
This is also why you should not necessarily trust research which is done by a company or other profit/biased organization. Not without supporting evidence from other sources.

 

[analogsurviver]

I don't get this?

Why are SONY which are a totally major brand making this product?

I would have thought SONY as a trusted brand but now I'm totally confused?

I DID NOT check the spec for the Sony "audio" card - yet.
 
A few years ago, I was trying to replace the HDD in Korg DSD recorder(s) with "card" - and there was NOTHING out there that could communicate fast enough ( or DSD recording would stutter, cut off completely, etc  ) - save for possibly the Hoodman card ( $$$$$$$ ) . Frankly, I forgot the rate required - and simply kept on using dependable and reliable HDD.
 
So, BEFORE anyone accuses Sony of selling snake oil, please do check how fast exactly is the new card - chances are that they managed to get it fast enough for HiRez , specially DSD, for a more reasonable price.
 
If your preference is lossy audio at rock bottom possible price, you can use low speed dirt cheap cards - but please do not condemn the existence of rocket fuel if your preferred transportation is moped.
 
If the new Sony card does not offer any tangible advantage over cards available prior to its introduction, I do concur it makes no sense - except making money.

 

[cel4145]

So, BEFORE anyone accuses Sony of selling snake oil, please do check how fast exactly is the new card - chances are that they managed to get it fast enough for HiRez , specially DSD, for a more reasonable price.

From the article that was linked above

"Speaking of margins, the 64GB "premium sound" SR-64HXA MicroSDXC card is expected to retail in Japan for about $160—a price that the Journal characterizes as being about five times the price of other Class 10 microSDXC cards (a quick check on Amazon shows that cards with similar sizes and speed ratings cost a bit over $20 at the low end)"

Even if the new card is faster than your typical Class 10 from Samsung or SanDisk, is there any evidence that those Class 10 64mb cards are not fast enough for hirez audio? Also, you could purchase a 128GB Class 10 card from Samsung or SanDisk for considerably less than the Sony. Now I don't know for certain that it is true for microsd cards, but with SSDs and flash drives, when you go up in size in a particular model series, you generally get some good improvements in speed.

 

[cjl]

Well, your first problem was using DSD at a ludicrous bitrate. 1.4Mbps (16/44) is more than enough for playback, and you could maybe justify ~2.1Mbps per channel (24/88.1) for recording, though ~1.05Mbps per channel (24/44.1) is actually plenty.
 
As for speed, if class 10 is insufficient, get a UHS rated card. That card is still rated class 10, so it's quite a bit slower than a UHS3 card such as this: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/sandisk-pixtor-advanced-64gb-microsdxc-class-10-uhs-3-memory-card-red-gold/7801144.p?id=1219290680472 (which is still less than half the price).

 

[analogsurviver]

From the article that was linked above

"Speaking of margins, the 64GB "premium sound" SR-64HXA MicroSDXC card is expected to retail in Japan for about $160—a price that the Journal characterizes as being about five times the price of other Class 10 microSDXC cards (a quick check on Amazon shows that cards with similar sizes and speed ratings cost a bit over $20 at the low end)"

Even if the new card is faster than your typical Class 10 from Samsung or SanDisk, is there any evidence that those Class 10 64mb cards are not fast enough for hirez audio? Also, you could purchase a 128GB Class 10 card from Samsung or SanDisk for considerably less than the Sony. Now I don't know for certain that it is true for microsd cards, but with SSDs and flash drives, when you go up in size in a particular model series, you generally get some good improvements in speed.

Hoodman'n approx 2 years ago fast enough were 250-500$ 16 GB and 32 GB, respectively. Class 10 is not fast enough. As said, it all boils down whether it is fast enough - or not. Sony premium products were and will always be pricier than "generics" - no idea if they really went too far this time.

 

[cel4145]

Hoodman'n approx 2 years ago fast enough were 250-500$ 16 GB and 32 GB, respectively. Class 10 is not fast enough. As said, it all boils down whether it is fast enough - or not. Sony premium products were and will always be pricier than "generics" - no idea if they really went too far this time.

Yeah, but it doesn't work to say "Class 10 is not fast enough." Class 10 is just a minimum speed standard and currently (I think) the fastest standard that can be used to label flash memory. Both Samsung's and Sandisk's basic Class 10 cards greatly exceed the minimum standard, and Sandisk also has their Extreme Pro series that is even faster. So you have to look at measurements to know what is enough, and you have to know which specific measurements to look at depending on the file size you are trying to read and/or write. And of course whether you are trying to read or write. Since Sony seems to be targeting a market that believes that they can get better sound from their cards, then it's the read speed that is important.

So has anyone ever noticed problems with reading hirez files off Class 10 cards on their DAP?

 

[StanD]

Far too many audiophiles are suckers for wild claims by marketing slimebags. Its unfortunate that much money is wasted on useless crap and not spent on products that will truly bring an improvement to the experience.
Who loses? The consumer and the manufacturers that make the real deal.

 

[KeithEmo]

I think some of the arguments here are getting off-track.
 
From the ads I've seen, they aren't selling it based on being faster. They're claiming that it draws less power, or that it draws power more consistently. The idea is that portable devices have power supplies that aren't very well regulated. Since digital devices, including memory cards, draw current in short bursts at clock transitions, it's possible that the variations in the current draw of a memory card might cause voltage shifts or noise in the power supply which, in turn, might cause other components running off that same power supply to not work as well. They're claiming that their memory card draws power in a way that is "friendlier" to the power supplies in portable devices, and so will "annoy" their power supplies less - and that this will translate to better audio performance.
 
If you believe that using ordinary diodes in the power supply of an amplifier can create noise spikes big enough to affect the audio performance, which is the justification usually used for using fast-recovery diodes in power supplies, then this isn't much less reasonable than that.... (after all, a memory card has BILLIONS of transistors and diodes, many of which switch every time you read or write data).
 
From a purely non-technical point of view, when the clerk at the store where someone just bought an $800 portable music player asks him "whether he wants the good audiophile memory card or the cheap one", don't you think most customers will take the good one? (The trick is to make the difference between the $120 "audiophile" memory card and the cheap "regular" one seem cheap enough - in comparison to the total purchase - that they don't think too hard about it.) There are also going to be plenty of customers who just plain *imagine* it sounds better... and, as they say, "a sale is a sale". (And this isn't any sillier than the arguments Sony used in their early sales literature promoting SACD.)
 
(Personally I'm pretty sure that the effect wouldn't be at all noticeable on a reasonably well designed device, and that, if there is a device that is that sensitive to supply variations, it's going to have worse problems than what memory card you use. However, it's quite possible that they could find a few devices that actually do work better with their wondrous memory card - which would prove that it isn't 100% silly

. )

 

[bigshot]

I think the main problem with audiophilia is that manufacturers keep coming up with solutions to problems that don't exist. This fancy memory card is a gold plated example. I don't think there is a situation where it would make any audible difference. Jitter... high bitrates... high sampling rates... super audible frequencies... distortion levels three times below the threshold of audibility instead of just two times... these are the sorts of things that people worry about and throw money at. But it's all a complete waste of time, energy and money, because none of this impacts the sound quality of recorded music.
 
If audiophiles actually focused on improving things they actually *can* hear, instead of the things they *can't*, they might actually be able to achieve better sound quality. But that requires more research and understanding than money. Easier to just trust the salesman and throw money at problems that don't exist. Laziness.

 

[StanD]

Another waste of money that would otherwise be put to good use.

 

[Phishin Phool]

FWIW here is what is posted in the comments section of the sony card article which I totally agree with

Okay, everyone here needs to take a step back. I am an actual analog circuit designer, so here is my take:

First of all, let me start by saying I'm sure, just like everyone else, that these devices have no practical effect on the audio produced by pretty much any practical system. That said, people seem to be confused about the nature of noise in a system.

As the story correctly notes, digital systems are inherently noise resistant, and often include error correction. There is no SD card or cable in the world that will help improve digital transmission if all the data is already being successfully transmitted. However, analog systems are susceptible to noise. In fact, a significant amount of analog design is dedicated to dealing with noise. In addition to random noise, which is introduced by thermal movement or other random processes in the devices, analog signals are also susceptible to interference, or other nearby signals which can corrupt the analog signal. Nearby electromagnetic fields can couple to analog traces on the board, degrading performance. A significant effort goes into carefully routing and shielding analog traces, as well as moving sources of interference further away.

High speed digital systems are a large source of interference. The fact that digital systems involve several wires switching at "full swing" at high frequency means that it produces a comparatively large electromagnetic field in the immediate vicinity. Again, a significant effort goes into keeping digital and analog components apart from each other in high quality audio systems. If your analog trace goes next to a memory running at hundreds of MHz, it will effectively increase the noise floor of your audio. 

It is conceivably possible that Sony actually did design an SD card which generates less electromagnetic interference (EMI). This could conceivably lessen the amount of interference coupled into an audio signal somewhere. That said... it's not going to make any difference in reality. If the SD card noise was having a practical effect on your audio then the whole systems was crap to begin with. So, as I think everyone in this thread can agree, this is snake oil. 

The bold  pretty much sums it up.

 

[castleofargh]

my reasoning behind this was: they started making DAPs with µSD slots, they want to get something out of it.
after all it's the only reason why sony spent so much time and energy trying to lock everything from formats, to memory sticks, to plugs. if you told me that the sony µSD won't let you play music when used into a second device, I would still think "good old sony".

 

 

[analogsurviver]

Yeah, but it doesn't work to say "Class 10 is not fast enough." Class 10 is just a minimum speed standard and currently (I think) the fastest standard that can be used to label flash memory. Both Samsung's and Sandisk's basic Class 10 cards greatly exceed the minimum standard, and Sandisk also has their Extreme Pro series that is even faster. So you have to look at measurements to know what is enough, and you have to know which specific measurements to look at depending on the file size you are trying to read and/or write. And of course whether you are trying to read or write. Since Sony seems to be targeting a market that believes that they can get better sound from their cards, then it's the read speed that is important.

So has anyone ever noticed problems with reading hirez files off Class 10 cards on their DAP?

Specifics for case mentioned is somewhere here : http://www.head-fi.org/t/425849/korg-mr-1-can-this-be-used-as-a-portable-player
 
Existing cards that interface via IDE provide perfect PLAYBACK - so no problems used fpr DAPs. Korg MR-1/1000/2000S is a RECORDER - and rates for writing required are faster.  Tascam DA-3000 DSD recorder does use "cards", yet there is a list of what does work and what does not - utilizing the full resolution of the recorder. Lesser cards will work with a lesser resolution selected on the recorder.
 
So, checking the compatibility/capability of your gear and intended use is case to case specific - sometimes you can use inexpensive stuff, sometimes you can not.

 

[analogsurviver]

  I think some of the arguments here are getting off-track.
 
From the ads I've seen, they aren't selling it based on being faster. They're claiming that it draws less power, or that it draws power more consistently. The idea is that portable devices have power supplies that aren't very well regulated. Since digital devices, including memory cards, draw current in short bursts at clock transitions, it's possible that the variations in the current draw of a memory card might cause voltage shifts or noise in the power supply which, in turn, might cause other components running off that same power supply to not work as well. They're claiming that their memory card draws power in a way that is "friendlier" to the power supplies in portable devices, and so will "annoy" their power supplies less - and that this will translate to better audio performance.
 
If you believe that using ordinary diodes in the power supply of an amplifier can create noise spikes big enough to affect the audio performance, which is the justification usually used for using fast-recovery diodes in power supplies, then this isn't much less reasonable than that.... (after all, a memory card has BILLIONS of transistors and diodes, many of which switch every time you read or write data).
 
From a purely non-technical point of view, when the clerk at the store where someone just bought an $800 portable music player asks him "whether he wants the good audiophile memory card or the cheap one", don't you think most customers will take the good one? (The trick is to make the difference between the $120 "audiophile" memory card and the cheap "regular" one seem cheap enough - in comparison to the total purchase - that they don't think too hard about it.) There are also going to be plenty of customers who just plain *imagine* it sounds better... and, as they say, "a sale is a sale". (And this isn't any sillier than the arguments Sony used in their early sales literature promoting SACD.)
 
(Personally I'm pretty sure that the effect wouldn't be at all noticeable on a reasonably well designed device, and that, if there is a device that is that sensitive to supply variations, it's going to have worse problems than what memory card you use. However, it's quite possible that they could find a few devices that actually do work better with their wondrous memory card - which would prove that it isn't 100% silly

. )

Miniaturization is nice and useful - as long as it does not become counter-productive. 
 
It all depends what one wants to "pair" with what. Digital HF garbage IS a problem in audio - of which are MUCH more aware guys coming to computer audio from the traditional audio than those whose speak is mostly reduced to 0 and 1. And there are cases where it is possible to get rid of this interference by sufficient physical distance put between the source of interference and device being affected.
 
A typical example from the analog world - low output moving coil cartridges. By low output is meant anything at or below  0.1mV/5cm/sec output voltage - which is roughly three times (or 9.542425 > 10 dB ) less than "currently usual".  Cartridges with this kind of output offer MANY advantages over those capable of three times more output - yet are unpopular to the extreme. Why ?
 
Amplifier noise. And if not noise, then - HUM. I did lend a friend a MC cart with 0.1 mV output and a preamp I knew is "silent" even with this minuscule output voltage. And he kept on bitching how this thing does not work, that it hums tooooo muuuuch.
 
OK - I went to see what was bothering him. Neat, custom made rack - with cables made to length within an inch or so - you can not re-arrange - anything...
 
Turntable/arm>cartridge close to the power amplifier and its massive transformers; below turntable a tuner, known for emitting hum into its surrounding - and so on and so forth. 
 
It took him a WEEK till he somehow put it all together without major cable purchases and so that turntable was finally free from surrounding electric garbage. That includes CD player ON STANDBY being merely plugged into the same AC outlet as the rest of the system - it took plugging it out when not listened to in order not to disturb the turntable.
 
You should have seen his face after all this was taken care of - 

,
 
Most of audiophiles or music listeners NEVER heard music reproduced at this level - because it is HARD to achieve in practice. And it requires some knowledge and common sense. And time and patience - "it hums too much" would be an answer from more than 99% of real people. By upping the output approx three times or + 10 dB better S/N ratio this gets swept under the carpet - at the expense of the ultimately achievable sound quality. But it definitely is doable to have noise/hum "free" analog system with a 0.1 mV output cartridge.
 
With portable gear, where smaller/lighter is always better , you can not afford larger distances between digital garbage and sensitive analog circuits - and reduced EMI/RFI from the new Sony card, if it is real, is in this case a plus. Gear dependant, not everything is going to be affected by the same degree, but calling something 10 mm or so "thick" "reasonably designed" is pushing it a bit - meaning there is maximum 7 mm "thickness" for the electronics inside - if it were 20 - 30 mm,  that interference could be MUCH lower - but the trend is for ever thinner portable gear - phones, DAPs, you name it.