[SilverEars]

yea, that's why i started measuring resistance, and then capacitance. i'm also to do some frequency response, distortion, crosstalk, etc. measurements. but i feel there is something more which i'm not able to measure. for example, which parts of the conductor are mostly used depending of frequencies and other near currents (maybe i can do some tests with different frequencies tones). there might be very tiny differences which are amplified by our brain / perception process.
because i can notice the difference of sound between a pure silver and a ofc copper cable, even though they measure the same in my limited measurements.
that's why i want to make the blind test. many people respect this method, although statistics prove nothing to me either. i'll always stay in skeptic but open minded and subjective side.

I'm kinda interested in trying out OCC copper. Any experience based on OCC copper wires you can share? Any information on OCC, and also the reliability of weather cables are truly OCC as they claim on certain cables over others, and also brands?


As far as measurement of resistance, there will be issue of making good contact with leads or alligator clips. The contact area size or how much contact the measuring leads are making will vary the resistance value. I don't think multimeters are reliable for making such minute resistance measurements. What I'm interested is a comparison between a undoubtedly reliable system compared to multi-meters. That would be interesting.

So contact is a pretty important aspect of cables.

 

[hakuzen]

I'm kinda interested in trying out OCC copper. Any experience based on OCC copper wires you can share? Any information on OCC, and also the reliability of weather cables are truly OCC as they claim on certain cables over others, and also brands?


As far as measurement of resistance, there will be issue of making good contact with leads or alligator clips. The contact area size or how much contact the measuring leads are making will vary the resistance value. I don't think multimeters are reliable for making such minute resistance measurements. What I'm interested is a comparison between a undoubtedly reliable system compared to multi-meters. That would be interesting.

So contact is a pretty important aspect of cables.

???
i use a battery resistance meter, four poles alligator clamps. check this review, made by a reputed and excellent electric/electronic reviewer.
https://lygte-info.dk/review/InternalResistanceMeterYR1030 UK.html
my resistance measurements are stable and very accurate (~1mOhm precision). do you really need more accuracy?

to answer your questions, please read all my first posts in this thread

 

[castleofargh]

yea, that's why i started measuring resistance, and then capacitance. i'm also to do some frequency response, distortion, crosstalk, etc. measurements. but i feel there is something more which i'm not able to measure. for example, sound stage or which parts of the conductor are mostly used depending of frequencies, topology, and other near currents and dielectric used (maybe i can do some tests with different frequencies tones). there might be very tiny differences which are amplified by our brain / perception process.
because i can notice the difference of sound between a pure silver and a ofc copper cable, even though they measure the same in my limited measurements.
that's why i want to make the blind test. many people respect this method, although statistics prove nothing to me either. i'll always stay in skeptic but open minded and in subjective side.

when I really feel like I'm getting a difference, I record music under conditions where I think I notice it(same rig and all). and then I do a blind test of the tracks(you have to properly time align them in audacity or some DAW, or it's meaningless). if I can still get the difference, then the difference is really in the sound. that aspect is out of the way and the only unknown is why.
the problem comes when I can't tell the difference in the recorded music. because the chances for me just imagining things are now getting really big, but at the same time, the possibility that the audible differences have been masked by something else isn't zero. it's tiny, but not zero. and that's annoying.


anecdote time: I got a few cables that really made me go crazy, I couldn't measure anything special yet there was no way they were sounding the same for me. including one where I finally noticed(completely by accident!!) that I was getting significantly different measurements when it was on the table as opposed to when it was along my body. somehow that made a clear difference on that one cable.

 

[superuser1]

I must stupidly add... imagination is what makes us human.. or we would be following unimaginative and uninspired existences as robots. Maybe I'm stupider than i thought

 

[fokta]

179 (165 8c) :
160, 200, 110, 130 mOhm...

hehehe...

 

[superuser1]

179 (165 8c) :
160, 200, 110, 130 mOhm...

hehehe...

I see you're having fun with the measurements... try the DD adapters when you have the time please.

 

[fokta]

I see you're having fun with the measurements... try the DD adapters when you have the time please.

Already did...
my result is worse then Hakuzen... my result is 80 to 110 mOhm just for 3.5 to 2.5 mm

and even Dunu result is the same..
Will try to get better clamp

 

[hakuzen]

179 (165 8c) :
160, 200, 110, 130 mOhm...

hehehe...

i don't understand your notes.. does first raw contain the raw measurements? how do you obtain the final results from them?
edit:
oh, i got it. 1.62 ohm is your leads resistance. lower resistance is desired. i'll search for links to better wires and alligators
edit2:
i like these (the best ones i've tried, but they are not cheap):
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32798647058.html (25cm of 13awg wire ended with 4mm retractile copper bananas)
+
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32324041303.html (copper alligators with 4mm socket for banana)
total resistance of the combo: 5 mOhm.
but i bought these because i'm using them for other measurements as well.
they cost more than your zt109, so guess it is not a good idea.

 

[hakuzen]

when I really feel like I'm getting a difference, I record music under conditions where I think I notice it(same rig and all). and then I do a blind test of the tracks(you have to properly time align them in audacity or some DAW, or it's meaningless). if I can still get the difference, then the difference is really in the sound. that aspect is out of the way and the only unknown is why.
the problem comes when I can't tell the difference in the recorded music. because the chances for me just imagining things are now getting really big, but at the same time, the possibility that the audible differences have been masked by something else isn't zero. it's tiny, but not zero. and that's annoying.


anecdote time: I got a few cables that really made me go crazy, I couldn't measure anything special yet there was no way they were sounding the same for me. including one where I finally noticed(completely by accident!!) that I was getting significantly different measurements when it was on the table as opposed to when it was along my body. somehow that made a clear difference on that one cable.

parallel capacitance varies depending of the cable position (to make the measurements, the cable shouldn't be rolled, it has to be straight).

unfortunately, we can't record the music when testing cables, because the cables used to carry the signal from the mic to the ADC, the coupler+mic and the preamplifier themselves, and the phones cable used when replaying, add a lot of new variables which mask (or destroy) the differences between original phones cables.
i think the traditional cables blind test, where you need to be helped by someone else, is the best approach. and the helper should believe the opposite than the listener, because if both believe the same, the result will be contaminated: the observer(s) is(are) never apart of the observed.

 

[castleofargh]

I must stupidly add... imagination is what makes us human.. or we would be following unimaginative and uninspired existences as robots. Maybe I'm stupider than i thought

so what? to prove how human we are we must reject method and just make stuff up? this has nothing to do with stupidity. if you only care about how something makes you feel, then you try and voila! you have effectively answered your question. but what if you have other questions? it might soon come a time when total subjectivity will not answer those and you'll have to find other means. it's that simple.

parallel capacitance varies depending of the cable position (to make the measurements, the cable shouldn't be rolled, it has to be straight).

unfortunately, we can't record the music when testing cables, because the cables used to carry the signal from the mic to the ADC, the coupler+mic and the preamplifier themselves, and the phones cable used when replaying, add a lot of new variables which mask (or destroy) the differences between original phones cables.
i think the traditional cables blind test, where you need to be helped by someone else, is the best approach. and the helper should believe the opposite than the listener, because if both believe the same, the result will be contaminated: the observer(s) is(are) never apart of the observed.

I once made something to have 2 cables plugged at the same time and a little switch at the amp output, so I could have rapid switching and no need to move the IEM(which as you know from measurements, is a problem). I did that for one type of exotic plugs so it had extremely limited use while still costing me a bunch of plugs. but otherwise it seemed to do the job. it still requires to bore a friend to death by having him handle the switch behind your back and take notes. something sadly known to be pretty damaging for the friendship part if repeated often

about my anecdote, I meant more than having the cable measure differently when forming a coil with it or leaving it all wiggly on the table. my anecdote was like my body itself affected the signal by being close to it or not, in a way that I never experienced again. sometimes you can see that at a hopefully small level when keeping your hand on the cable while doing measurements(I guess we kind of become ferrite chokes or an extra antenna, or something). now here is the billion dollar question: as we're going to have that cable on us when using it, shouldn't the measurements and tests be done that way instead of straight on a table?
but then, what if I get too fat and my own gravitational pull starts slowing the electrons down? ^_^ ok maybe no need to go that far, but there are some small concerns about repeatability. meaning it's still IMO, not the 100% sure method we hope for.

 

[superuser1]

Again, I must politely add, you are missing the point.

 

[fokta]

i like these (the best ones i've tried, but they are not cheap):
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32798647058.html (25cm of 13awg wire ended with 4mm retractile copper bananas)
+
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32324041303.html (copper alligators with 4mm socket for banana)
total resistance of the combo: 5 mOhm.
but i bought these because i'm using them for other measurements as well.
they cost more than your zt109, so guess it is not a good idea.

regarding Alligator and wires, yes the price is more expensive then my DMM... but it was for 5 units price each...
was thinking buying it, and tried to sell the rest of it. or keep it.. consider spare if I broke it.. hehhee

edit :
btw find these : https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000260981705.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.10.483c18d1ItCQIC
should that sufficient enough ?

 

[hakuzen]

regarding Alligator and wires, yes the price is more expensive then my DMM... but it was for 5 units price each...
was thinking buying it, and tried to sell the rest of it. or keep it.. consider spare if I broke it.. hehhee

edit :
btw find these : https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000260981705.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.10.483c18d1ItCQIC
should that sufficient enough ?

i also own these. they have lower resistance than yours, less than 40 mOhm per 1 meter (the more expensive ones were 5 Ohm per 25cm, so around 20 mOhm/m).
and they are more affordable. but there is a con, the alligators are medium size in both cases, but these are wider than those from my link. they are in the limit to measure the rings of plugs.
other advantage of the more expensive ones, is that the alligators are not soldered to the wire, so i can use the cables for other purposes where a banana end is needed.
pity i couldn't find packs of 2 units of those cables, instead of 5 units.

 

[fokta]

i also own these. they have lower resistance than yours, less than 40 mOhm per 1 meter (the more expensive ones were 5 Ohm per 25cm, so around 20 mOhm/m).
and they are more affordable. but there is a con, the alligators are medium size in both cases, but these are wider than those from my link. they are in the limit to measure the rings of plugs.
other advantage of the more expensive ones, is that the alligators are not soldered to the wire, so i can use the cables for other purposes where a banana end is needed.
pity i couldn't find packs of 2 units of those cables, instead of 5 units.

I think I will order when 11 11.. they already give estimate price..

 

[hakuzen]

I must stupidly add... imagination is what makes us human.. or we would be following unimaginative and uninspired existences as robots. Maybe I'm stupider than i thought

so what? to prove how human we are we must reject method and just make stuff up? this has nothing to do with stupidity. if you only care about how something makes you feel, then you try and voila! you have effectively answered your question. but what if you have other questions? it might soon come a time when total subjectivity will not answer those and you'll have to find other means. it's that simple.


I once made something to have 2 cables plugged at the same time and a little switch at the amp output, so I could have rapid switching and no need to move the IEM(which as you know from measurements, is a problem). I did that for one type of exotic plugs so it had extremely limited use while still costing me a bunch of plugs. but otherwise it seemed to do the job. it still requires to bore a friend to death by having him handle the switch behind your back and take notes. something sadly known to be pretty damaging for the friendship part if repeated often

about my anecdote, I meant more than having the cable measure differently when forming a coil with it or leaving it all wiggly on the table. my anecdote was like my body itself affected the signal by being close to it or not, in a way that I never experienced again. sometimes you can see that at a hopefully small level when keeping your hand on the cable while doing measurements(I guess we kind of become ferrite chokes or an extra antenna, or something). now here is the billion dollar question: as we're going to have that cable on us when using it, shouldn't the measurements and tests be done that way instead of straight on a table?
but then, what if I get too fat and my own gravitational pull starts slowing the electrons down? ^_^ ok maybe no need to go that far, but there are some small concerns about repeatability. meaning it's still IMO, not the 100% sure method we hope for.

my idea is to do 3 tests using 3 cables (low resistance ofc copper, up-occ copper litz, and up-occ silver). hope my brother will be patient enough.. he is living in another city, and it's not easy to meet, so i have to convince him to do as many tests we can, leaving time for other matters as well.

it's very interesting what you tell. every day we are finding new variables which can affect sound. i've read about dielectric, topology, etc. how different frequencies use different parts of the conductor to travel, and this is also affected by near surrounding currents (like it happens with twisted and braided wires), or by the shape of the wires (cylinder, oval, prism), or by the dielectrics used.
we are reading every day how nano topology matters in many scopes. the same material has different attributes in the borders than inside. and possibly many other unknown parameters are involved.
we are not able to measure all them now, even if you have kilobucks instrumentation. soundstage, for example. width can be related to crosstalk measurements, but depth and height... the spatial representation of the sounds in our mind can provoke a different sound perception even when frequency response (quantity) and distortion are the same.
we can try our best to measure all we can, but we are limited, and the whole science is also limited. the knowledge about our brain and perception is already in the beginnings. science has changed a lot since quantum physics, to discover we are already little rookies.

considering all this, i think i get the point of what @superuser1 means. most important matters in our life, like love, imagination, creativity, art, meanings, are far to be explained by science (and i think they are out of its scope). music is an expression of our imagination, creativity, and art, besides of science. so we can try a science approach (you know i put my efforts in measuring everything i can), but also a non-science approach, to talk about sound and music. people ignoring the known science part of the sound is not more stupid than people ignoring the non-science or unknown part. we ought to try both approach, and to avoid to disqualify any of them. let's sum, and not divide.
i guess you agree with part of this perspective (based on your usual comments), but wanted to show it here explicitly to help to reconcile both sides. cables discussions would be more bearable.