[mvvRAZ]

Interesting. Specs for the Erlk are 105dB/mW which is not particularly sensitive so there shouldn't be hiss?

For comparison, something like a 64 Audio Tia Fourte is 114db/mW and offerings from CA are typically all around 122-124db/mW (hence the high potential for hiss).

The Fourte is from memory very sensitive, and so is the Erl. I could hear the hiss pretty clearly on the Hugo 2 when paired with either

 

[aaf evo]

There’s definitely very audible hiss with Erlky out of R8’s 4.4mm. After swapping cable, the hiss is lessened by quite a big margin but still there. It’s a lot better with 3.5mm though.

The erlkonig is the iem I am referring to when I used the r8 and heard the hiss. I don’t like sensitive iems either but when an ibasso dx160 can drive an erlky just fine with a black background it kinda gives you a poor taste when something like the r8 has an audible noise floor.

 

[Damz87]

Interesting. Specs for the Erlk are 105dB/mW which is not particularly sensitive so there shouldn't be hiss?

For comparison, something like a 64 Audio Tia Fourte is 114db/mW and offerings from CA are typically all around 122-124db/mW (hence the high potential for hiss).

Which Campfire products are rated at 122-124db/mW?

Andromeda is 112db/mW and Solaris is 115db/mW. They are the two main models that get hiss/sensitivity complaints.

Erlkonig hisses less than both Solaris & Andromeda but it is definitely on the more sensitive side overall.

 

[gLer]

The erlkonig is the iem I am referring to when I used the r8 and heard the hiss. I don’t like sensitive iems either but when an ibasso dx160 can drive an erlky just fine with a black background it kinda gives you a poor taste when something like the r8 has an audible noise floor.

In which case the Hugo 2 needs to go in the same basket, a-la @mvvRAZ's observation. Although I honestly can't hear any hiss with the R8 and Fourte. As for the DX160, one has to take into account the sheer power differential between the two. Typically the more powerful the amp, the more likelihood of hiss with sensitive transducers.

 

[aaf evo]

In which case the Hugo 2 needs to go in the same basket, a-la @mvvRAZ's observation. Although I honestly can't hear any hiss with the R8 and Fourte. As for the DX160, one has to take into account the sheer power differential between the two. Typically the more powerful the amp, the more likelihood of hiss with sensitive transducers.

Sure, maybe the 160 wasn’t the best example. The Max is incredibly powerful as well, don’t know where it ranks compared to the r8, but it’s dead silent with everything ive thrown at it.

 

[gLer]

Sure, maybe the 160 wasn’t the best example. The Max is incredibly powerful as well, don’t know where it ranks compared to the r8, but it’s dead silent with everything ive thrown at it.

Max is definitely more powerful than the R8. But then I never heard the noise floor of the R6 Pro that many complained about. Guess I must be impervious to DAP noise. I could pick it out much more clearly with desktop gear.

 

[aaf evo]

I do want to revisit the R8 eventually. I no longer have the Erlkonig and I’ve heard the R8 Traillii synergy is quite good.

 

[gLer]

I do want to revisit the R8 eventually. I no longer have the Erlkonig and I’ve heard the R8 Traillii synergy is quite good.

To me the R8 is the most complete and refined of all the current flagship Android DAPs. Some may prefer the sound profile of other DAPs, but feature for feature I don't think the R8 has an equal - currently.

The DAP market changes so quickly that it'll not doubt be surpassed soon enough, but for me it has enough futureproofing built in to last a few years. I wouldn't count on that though. No question my IEMs will outlast it.

 

[justsomesonyfan]

To me the R8 is the most complete and refined of all the current flagship Android DAPs. Some may prefer the sound profile of other DAPs, but feature for feature I don't think the R8 has an equal - currently.

The DAP market changes so quickly that it'll not doubt be surpassed soon enough, but for me it has enough futureproofing built in to last a few years. I wouldn't count on that though. No question my IEMs will outlast it.

maybe dx300? genuinely another very responsive/fast dap, the only thing i can't see being on equal grounds is that one version of r8 that can use a sim (i think??)

 

[gLer]

maybe dx300? genuinely another very responsive/fast dap, the only thing i can't see being on equal grounds is that one version of r8 that can use a sim (i think??)

Yes the DX300 has definitely caught up with the R8, and actually betters it in some areas for less money.

The things I prefer with the R8 over the DX300 are subjective and unrelated to what many would consider 'dealbreakers' for a DAP, like the form factor, volume wheel, single large battery (not a fan of the dual battery/dual charging array), and more 'premium' package (Dignis leather case, leather storage system, preapplied protectors).

Hardware and software wise they're much of a muchness, perhaps the R8 having the edge in absolute DAC features (DSD512/16x MQA) and the DX300 edging it out in screen size, heat dissipation and storage.

DX300 is also quite a bit cheaper and offers replaceable amp modules. I think the DX300 has set a new bar for price/performance that will hopefully bring next-gen flagship prices down and push feature sets up.

Out of the current flagship Android platforms I wouldn't really look past those two DAPs.

 

[gLer]

I got rid of the R8 for the opposite reason-ish... the noise floor on it is quite poor with sensitive IEMs. At $1900 I personally think that’s inexcusable.

Just a quick check-back on this. Based on @twister6's excellent review of the Cayin C9, a device that is currently garnering widespread praise, it seems to be similarly hissy with ultra-sensitive IEMs like Erlky and even more so Solaris. It also costs $2K and is considered to be a flagship external amp. Drop down to 3.5mm and low gain on both and the hiss is far less apparent, which makes sense given how much less power you're putting through the IEMs. So my question is, do you consider the noise floor on the C9 with sensitive IEMs similarly inexcusable? Honest question, and asked in the spirit of understanding where this 'issue' sits on the scale for different users.

 

[Damz87]

Just a quick check-back on this. Based on @twister6's excellent review of the Cayin C9, a device that is currently garnering widespread praise, it seems to be similarly hissy with ultra-sensitive IEMs like Erlky and even more so Solaris. It also costs $2K and is considered to be a flagship external amp. Drop down to 3.5mm and low gain on both and the hiss is far less apparent, which makes sense given how much less power you're putting through the IEMs. So my question is, do you consider the noise floor on the C9 with sensitive IEMs similarly inexcusable? Honest question, and asked in the spirit of understanding where this 'issue' sits on the scale for different users.

I know you weren’t asking me specifically, but just to throw my hat in the ring, I think it’s more “excusable” for a dedicated amp to have a higher noise floor with sensitive IEM’s, because they aren’t really designed for them. It seems a bit pointless spending $2k on such a powerful amplifier to drive a sensitive IEM don’t you think?

Whereas with a DAP, there is an assumption (at least from me) that it will be designed with sensitive IEM’s in mind and therefore made with a lower noise floor, albeit at the expense of some power to drive those super power hungry full size headphones (which is when I would consider adding on an external amp like the C9).

My personal expectation from any DAP I purchase is that it can drive my IEM’s (both sensitive and reasonably power hungry) adequately without any background noise. Similarly, my expectation for an external amp is that it can drive my power hungry/less sensitive IEM’s and basically any full size headphone, and I’d be okay with it being a bit hissy with a sensitive IEM. Horses for courses I guess

Just my 2c of course

 

[mvvRAZ]

I know you weren’t asking me specifically, but just to throw my hat in the ring, I think it’s more “excusable” for a dedicated amp to have a higher noise floor with sensitive IEM’s, because they aren’t really designed for them. It seems a bit pointless spending $2k on such a powerful amplifier to drive a sensitive IEM don’t you think?

Whereas with a DAP, there is an assumption (at least from me) that it will be designed with sensitive IEM’s in mind and therefore made with a lower noise floor, albeit at the expense of some power to drive those super power hungry full size headphones (which is when I would consider adding on an external amp like the C9).

My personal expectation from any DAP I purchase is that it can drive my IEM’s (both sensitive and reasonably power hungry) adequately without any background noise. Similarly, my expectation for an external amp is that it can drive my power hungry/less sensitive IEM’s and basically any full size headphone, and I’d be okay with it being a bit hissy with a sensitive IEM. Horses for courses I guess

Just my 2c of course

AFAIK Cayin designed their C9 to be used specifically with IEMs. Hard to drive HPs weren’t really their target

 

[Damz87]

AFAIK Cayin designed their C9 to be used specifically with IEMs. Hard to drive HPs weren’t really their target

Hard to drive IEM’s though, yeah? Not sensitive ones?

I just don’t see the point in buying a dedicated amp for a sensitive IEM like Solaris or Erlky lol. Fair enough for something like Elysium or IER-Z1R though.

 

[gLer]

I know you weren’t asking me specifically, but just to throw my hat in the ring, I think it’s more “excusable” for a dedicated amp to have a higher noise floor with sensitive IEM’s, because they aren’t really designed for them. It seems a bit pointless spending $2k on such a powerful amplifier to drive a sensitive IEM don’t you think?

Whereas with a DAP, there is an assumption (at least from me) that it will be designed with sensitive IEM’s in mind and therefore made with a lower noise floor, albeit at the expense of some power to drive those super power hungry full size headphones (which is when I would consider adding on an external amp like the C9).

My personal expectation from any DAP I purchase is that it can drive my IEM’s (both sensitive and reasonably power hungry) adequately without any background noise. Similarly, my expectation for an external amp is that it can drive my power hungry/less sensitive IEM’s and basically any full size headphone, and I’d be okay with it being a bit hissy with a sensitive IEM. Horses for courses I guess

Just my 2c of course

AFAIK Cayin designed their C9 to be used specifically with IEMs. Hard to drive HPs weren’t really their target

Both good points. Perhaps Cayin don't consider the noise floor level with sensitive IEMs an issue as much as some users do, or maybe there's got to be a compromise somewhere (too little power to minimise hiss and there's not enough juice for harder to drive headphones, and vice versa).

I think DAPs like the R8 that were intended to drive less sensitive IEMs and larger headphones (using balanced + Turbo) will exhibit some noise at those settings with very sensitive IEMs, which is why it also offers SE and low gain options.

All of this comes down to personal tolerance/sensitivity to hiss, personal choice of IEMs, and even hearing ability. I commend reviews that make mention of the noise floor with very sensitive IEMs but point out that a) this is not a factor when playing music and b) is not a factor for less sensitive IEMs, any headphones, and can be mitigated with a switch of output and/or gain setting.