[mashuto]

Well, it doesn't hurt to be a bit more specific. in my opinion:

- the dap/dac/amp is the "voice" of the music; the earpiece makes the "sound." A good dap with a poor IEM is like an angelic voice singing to you through a phone call--some may find it a fun, retro experience; a poor dap with a good IEM is like me (who can't sing) singing to you through a pair of Tannoy westminster--some may find it fun picking up my formant?
- the cable is a part of the speakers!! A better way to put it: there is no such thing as "the sound of the IEM by itself." Every cable colors the sound in a certain way, even the stock cable.
- the eartip influences the sound about as much as cleaning up your earwax. Different eartip seals the bass to a different degree, similar to how having more earwax will reduce the amount of bass you hear. It certainly influences the sound in a big, yet predictable, way.

So to me the components are all important for different reasons:
- Eartip: I have my favorite eartip and I will stick with it. It gives me comfort and my ideal seal when listening to music, which is a huge part of the experience. I will not swap the eartip to adjust the sound of my system. I will swap my IEM before I swap my eartip.
- the dap/dac/amp: I connect my dap to speakers to magnify their "voice" to find my favorite: a warm, massive, passionate voice. A voice that is more emotionally correct than politically correct. I will swap my IEM before I swap my dap.
- the cable and the IEM: I find it incredibly hard to judge an IEM by store/show demoing, mainly because it is very difficult to determine how crappy the stock cable is. Over time I learned to listen "through" the stock cable, and focus on the potential presented in the IEM itself. The cable is what realizes those potentials. I won't name names, but there are a few TOTL on the market right now getting rave reviews for a large part because the maker put some good effort into the cable. You'd be shocked how mediocre they sound with a generic cable, and how incredible these cables make budget IEMs sound.
- And yes, I clean my earwax regularly for maximum bass response lol

Im one who tends to agree about cables not being all that important. I have just never heard a cable make enough of a difference to really consider it that important. I know many will argue, but the way I hear people talk about it is as if its actually carrying the acoustics of the sound and not just an electrical signal. I know that electrical signals can degrade and all that, but I would imagine that over the very short distances the chances of anything drastic happening are slim. And I have seen so many cables that use high price wire then just... OEM connectors. Its an electrical signal, thats going to be the weak link in the chain. Or the internal wiring of the IEM itself. I just remain unconvinced, and moreso that if a cable somehow alters an IEM enough to change someones ranking, then that isnt really a ranking of the IEM anymore anyways. And if the stock cable provided with an IEM produces sound so bad that it requires a separate cable, then I would say thats a bad IEM. I just dont see that happening. Even the really terrible 64 audio pro cable sounds pretty much exactly the same to my ears as the $500 64 audio silver cable.

I would also likely argue that maybe all the extra information isn't really relevant to this thread. This isn't a strict review thread where for some people having that information is critical. Its just a ranking list, often without any further detail, at all. And since its so subjective, and since there are so many variations in frequency response, I think grouping them together is not a simple task, nor is it really relevant here.

The stuff you are saying is all well and good, just again not sure its necessary in this particular thread. Plus, theres almost always discussion going on as well where that information can be asked about.

 

[Edric Li]

The stuff you are saying is all well and good, just again not sure its necessary in this particular thread. Plus, theres almost always discussion going on as well where that information can be asked about.

Thanks. I respect that. I just stumbled upon this thread and got frustrated because none of the lists provide enough context for me to understand either the listener's preference or her setup. I guess I was taking this thread too ... seriously?

 

[mashuto]

Thanks. I respect that. I just stumbled upon this thread and got frustrated because none of the lists provide enough context for me to understand either the listener's preference or her setup. I guess I was taking this thread too ... seriously?

I get what you are saying and that it can be difficult to really tell a ton of useful information from a post. But I think this thread is just and has just kind of been a way for people to maintain a very loose subjective list ranking things they have heard. Not really a thread to get any super useful information or make any purchasing decisions. But people do always seem happy to expand on their lists and why they ranked them that way when asked.

I have tried to at least include my preferences and short descriptions about my personal rankings, whenever I write them, but I save my more detailed thoughts for the actual product threads.

 

[Rockwell75]

This was one of the most useful threads on Head Fi for me for the first few months I was in this hobby. It's still one of my favorites. You learn a lot about people's tastes and preferences, who shares similar tastes as you, whose impressions to look out for or who to look to for info when you need it etc.

 

[Edric Li]

I know many will argue, but the way I hear people talk about it is as if its actually carrying the acoustics of the sound and not just an electrical signal. I know that electrical signals can degrade and all that, but I would imagine that over the very short distances the chances of anything drastic happening are slim.

You can look up yourself, but the reason why cable can carry acoustics of the sound roughly is that: high frequency travels closer to the surface of a cable and low frequency travels closer to the center. This how silver-plated copper and gold-plated silver cable changes the sound.

I get what you are saying and that it can be difficult to really tell a ton of useful information from a post. But I think this thread is just and has just kind of been a way for people to maintain a very loose subjective list ranking things they have heard. Not really a thread to get any super useful information or make any purchasing decisions. But people do always seem happy to expand on their lists and why they ranked them that way when asked.

I have tried to at least include my preferences and short descriptions about my personal rankings, whenever I write them, but I save my more detailed thoughts for the actual product threads.

Well I personally find short, comparative, to-the-point reviews like the ones in this thread much more informative than those 5-page "publication quality" reviews. I hate spending time to translate formal reviews to my language. All that "this headphones does not have the most bass quantity but it has quality bass; it hits you in the chest; it's bass will not stand out, but if your music calls for it, you will feel that bass" simply means "no bass" is just madness.

 

[michaelc]

To be honest, it's will be a bit troublesome to write a personal ranking impression with the inclusion of eartips, cable, etc.
In the end, it's still a personal preference or taste.
Unless you're the expert reviewer like @twister6 ...I like to read his gears review with different DAP, cables, etc.

 

[Redcarmoose]

To be honest, it's will be a bit troublesome to write a personal ranking impression with the inclusion of eartips, cable, etc.
In the end, it's still a personal preference or taste.
Unless you're the expert reviewer like @twister6 ...I like to read his gears review with different DAP, cables, etc.

End sound is a combination off all things.

1) file quality
2) dap
3) cable
4) tips
5) DAP firmware

In the end it’s ultimately subjective. Though the reason we are here is to parallel commonality in results.

Everyone knows they will use different cables and tips. Everyone knows everyone has a different ear canal and has sound signature preferences.

 

[mashuto]

You can look up yourself, but the reason why cable can carry acoustics of the sound roughly is that: high frequency travels closer to the surface of a cable and low frequency travels closer to the center. This how silver-plated copper and gold-plated silver cable changes the sound.

Well I personally find short, comparative, to-the-point reviews like the ones in this thread much more informative than those 5-page "publication quality" reviews. I hate spending time to translate formal reviews to my language. All that "this headphones does not have the most bass quantity but it has quality bass; it hits you in the chest; it's bass will not stand out, but if your music calls for it, you will feel that bass" simply means "no bass" is just madness.

I gotta get to bed and I dont have time to really get into this (plus this is the wrong thread and wrong forum), but all my admittedly quick research into the skin effect seems to really only make a difference for larger diameter wire (that doesnt really apply to IEM cables since wire gauge is usually small and individual strands of wire even smaller) and for longer interconnect runs where cable resisitance will become a real factor. But this is a discussion that will go in circles, so I will just say if cable rolling works for you, great. I have said my peace and I think no differently of anyone who thinks otherwise.

 

[Edric Li]

End sound is a combination off all things.

1) file quality
2) dap
3) cable
4) tips
5) DAP firmware

In the end it’s ultimately subjective. Though the reason we are here is to parallel commonality in results.

Everyone knows they will use different cables and tips. Everyone knows everyone has a different ear canal and has sound signature preferences.

So we should just give up trying to understand each other better, or trying to have others understand us better?

 

[grooveriders]

well I do agree that dap/source is affecting the end-sound. But the most important thing is the individual’s taste in music and preferred sound signature.
Looking at Crinacle’s/BGGAR etc. iem rankings I can disagree with many of the ranking list but it is his preference/taste.
So the list here are from the opinion’s of each member. So don't take it too seriously. If you want the best iem to suit your taste you will have to go out and test/demo each iem to match the liking of yours.

 

[baskingshark]

End sound is a combination off all things.

1) file quality
2) dap
3) cable
4) tips
5) DAP firmware

In the end it’s ultimately subjective. Though the reason we are here is to parallel commonality in results.

Everyone knows they will use different cables and tips. Everyone knows everyone has a different ear canal and has sound signature preferences.

Yep agreed, I think in addition 2 other factors that are not mentioned here play a big part in sound:

1) Hearing health - either due to aging (where higher frequencies are first to be lost) or due to occupational/leisure exposure. That's why treble/upper mids can be very differently perceived for certain IEMs. A good example would be the Fiio FD1. I've read some saying it is harsh in the treble, others say it is non fatiguing and smooth.

2) Volume gear is used at - Fletcher Munson curve. Sound is perceived to be more V shaped when used at louder volumes, whereas it is perceived to be more U shaped at lower volumes. A lot of reviewers/consumers don't mention how loud they use their gear at. A good example would be the Moondrop SSR. It is tuned somewhat diffuse-field neutral with an upper mids boost. It sounds good to me at low volumes, but just pump up the volume a bit more and the 3 kHz region really is a dealbreaker for me.

 

[Redcarmoose]

So we should just give up trying to understand each other better, or trying to have others understand us better?

We use what we read by people we trust to get clues to progress. Exactly like real life. And after we apply the ideas we report back and the system become the cycles of thought Head-Fi is.

Head-Fi is also filled with shills who are promoting there own agenda regardless of what we may view as a reality. Thus new products and new ideas being introduced as beneficial. There is always a bell curve to how the group comes to terms with new ideas. New ideas, especially in the sciences are met with distrust and cynicism.

Regardless of the above we respect all as it’s their subjective reality. If they are being truthful it may be confusing but eventually answers will arise to confirm their statements.

You missed one part. The commonality of results. Thus when enough people after time agree on something there may be something of use there.

Remember most of what we read is never the complete story. People are always too myopic to include the compete results. Thus the guy who is comparing cables probably has already found a great tip.

The mystery here that will never be fully explained, is the pure results of all the variables. We may not even understand the variables let alone be able to list them.

Beyond tips the final frontier is expectation bias. The fact that we may hear what we expect to hear. Even due to that phenomenon everything you read must be taken with a grain of salt.

But eventually we do find truth maybe. The best part is when someone suggests something and it turns out to be both helpful and true for a long long time.

The whole trying to understand others or trying to get others to understand us is in many ways not important. As individuals we are always comparing what we read to our own history of understanding. All you can do is be honest. Also many are honestly confused. But that’s the place they are in their journey.

Years ago in the XBA-Z5 IEM thread someone was reporting how they wanted the Kimber cable to smooth out the XBA-Z5. None of us had a clue what the person wanted as with the included XBA-Z5 tips the IEM has a basic ultra smooth sound signature. No one looks at the Z5 as bright. If anything we look at it as laid back and dark. So life went on and years later I started to really do tip rolling on the Z5. I found out that with certain tips and with a certain DAP that you actually could make the XBA-Z5 walk away from 90% of its bass and become unusually bright. So there is an example of finally realizing the part about trying to understand someone. At times it’s really a riddle but you don’t call them wrong as it’s simply their honest impressions.

 

[Edric Li]

We use what we read by people we trust to get clues to progress. Exactly like real life. And after we apply the ideas we report back and the system become the cycles of thought Head-Fi is.

Head-Fi is also filled with shills who are promoting there own agenda regardless of what we may view as a reality. Thus new products and new ideas being introduced as beneficial. There is always a bell curve to how the group comes to terms with new ideas. New ideas, especially in the sciences are met with distrust and cynicism.

Regardless of the above we respect all as it’s their subjective reality. If they are being truthful it may be confusing but eventually answers will arise to confirm their statements.



You missed one part. The commonality of results. Thus when enough people after time agree on something there may be something of use there.

Remember most of what we read is never the complete story. People are always too myopic to include the compete results. Thus the guy who is comparing cables probably has already found a great tip.

The mystery here that will never be fully explained, is the pure results of all the variables. We may not even understand the variables let alone be able to list them.

Beyond tips the final frontier is expectation bias. The fact that we may hear what we expect to hear. Even due to that phenomenon everything you read must be taken with a grain of salt.

But eventually we do find truth maybe. The best part is when someone suggests something and it turns out to be both helpful and true for a long long time.

The whole trying to understand others or trying to get others to understand us is in many ways not important. As individuals we are always comparing what we read to our own history of understanding. All you can do is be honest. Also many are honestly confused. But that’s the place they are in their journey.

Years ago in the XBA-Z5 IEM thread someone was reporting how they wanted the Kimber cable to smooth out the XBA-Z5. None of us had a clue what the person wanted as with the included XBA-Z5 tips the IEM has a basic ultra smooth sound signature. No one looks at the Z5 as bright. If anything we look at it as laid back and dark. So life went on and years later I started to really do tip rolling on the Z5. I found out that with certain tips and with a certain DAP that you actually could make the XBA-Z5 walk away from 90% of its bass and become unusually bright. So there is an example of finally realizing the part about trying to understand someone. At times it’s really a riddle but you don’t call them wrong as it’s simply their honest impressions.

Understood. I personally feel like I'm at a stage in this hobby where I can make very effective communication if the other party is on the same page, e.g. if the Z5 owner told me about his entire system, I would probably be able to pin point where the brightness comes from in the chain. It is totally understandable if someone does not share his entire system because he just didn't see how the other factors could come in to play, e.g. the Z5 owner probably had no idea eartip or source could change the sound.

There's only a few people irl with whom I can make effective audio-related conversation like that. Communicating with them is like sharing our ears. I guess it's silly of me to hold this thread to that kind of standard. Nonetheless, this thread is great, and I just wanted to make it even better, ever so slightly.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Yep agreed, I think in addition 2 other factors that are not mentioned here play a big part in sound:

1) Hearing health - either due to aging (where higher frequencies are first to be lost) or due to occupational/leisure exposure. That's why treble/upper mids can be very differently perceived for certain IEMs. A good example would be the Fiio FD1. I've read some saying it is harsh in the treble, others say it is non fatiguing and smooth.

2) Volume gear is used at - Fletcher Munson curve. Sound is perceived to be more V shaped when used at louder volumes, whereas it is perceived to be more U shaped at lower volumes. A lot of reviewers/consumers don't mention how loud they use their gear at. A good example would be the Moondrop SSR. It is tuned somewhat diffuse-field neutral with an upper mids boost. It sounds good to me at low volumes, but just pump up the volume a bit more and the 3 kHz region really is a dealbreaker for me.

Absolutely two important adds to my list. The fact that a 17 year old may find something too bright that replaces the lost treble frequency to a 65 year old!

And the volume factor is relation to what you posted but maybe somehow IEM damping or...... there may be an engineering word but I don’t know what it is? Just the fact the low volume listeners will not demand the power damping factor to clean up bass imaging, the high volume listeners hear when the transducer is underpowered.

It’s the same concept with damping full size where we are not looking for power for volume but damping control over the DD driver.

Thus when something like the Z5 or IER-Z1R is under powered they get foggy where low volume listeners may not experience the fog.

Don’t know what the word is for IEMs, but it’s damping factor for full size.

Edit:
And the fact that IEMs don’t have a linear frequency response across all volume levels it seems?

 

[ImMcLovin]

Every cable colors the sound in a certain way, even the stock cable

But it's such a small difference in real life that when someone describes an IEM/headphone, whether they have $1000 aftermarket cable or a stock cable, the way they describe the IEM in the same way. Also your brain will adjust to the sound of the cable if there is even a difference and won't really change your opinion of an IEM.

there are a few TOTL on the market right now getting rave reviews for a large part because the maker put some good effort into the cable.

The rave reviews for having a good cable is based on comfort and quality in the feel of the cable and in not how the cable sounds. The cable won't change the ranking of that IEM either. Like 64 audio u/a12t has a pretty bad stock cable in terms of quality for the price of the IEM, but still is consistently high in a lot of people's ranking list. To go to headphones real quick, the Focal Clear stock cable is pretty bad in feel, but still ranks highly in terms of sound and when someone swaps it to a cheaper custom braided cable or a nice high end soft nice feeling cable, the opinion on the sound of the headphone is the same, but the comfort and feel of the cable improves drastically.

2. I advice people list their rankings separated by tuning. It's nice if you say you like warmth and put Andro at the end of your list, but even better if you make a separate list for that type of sound.

I personally categorize all IEM roughly into:
- SE846-like: most stage monitors are tuned like this. Warm, forward midbass; forward midrange; dark, roll-off treble. Example: JH Roxanne/16, VE 6/8/Erlkonig, 1964 A12/18, Sony Z5/M7/M9
- IE800-like: Big bass balanced out by loud treble. Examples: CA Vega,
- K3003-like: A dip in the upper bass / lower mid, to allow for nice transparency while maintaining good subbass impact. Example: N5005, Sony Z1R, A8000
- UE-18-like: flat across the board. Example: PP8, QDC8,

Personally, at least in this thread, I can see having both a normal tier list and list separated by tuning, but having just a tier list separated by tuning might make it more difficult to really judge a tier list. Also SE846-like tuning is used for stage use? I am not a musician, but some of those listed like the SE846 and JH 16 I can't imagine being stage monitors and A12 is pretty different sounding from those other IEMs.