Orthodynamic Roundup
Feb 15, 2012 at 7:00 PM Post #18,916 of 27,139

Quote:
1 ) ...Looks like this has been thoroughly covered conceptually, but no one has actually tried it, from what I can gather, except Rick (Warren Audio) with spectacularly unpromising results. By his description, though, his implementation sounded less than ideal. I like ericj's idea a lot... So this continues to linger in the back of people's minds, I suppose. 
 
2 ) Care to elaborate on your EAH-830 at all? I used the search, but not much seems to be recorded. Even Wikiphonia leads to a virtually lifeless page on the 820. More looking for your take on their technical specs than sound impressions.


1 ) It lingers, yes, despite the spectacularly unpromising results. You asked about adding magnets to an existing driver; I'm not sure what an "ideal" implementation of that would be. Ericj was suggesting starting from scratch. But as I suggested, give it a try and see what happens.
 
2 ) At all? Honest, I did. In my very first post on the EAH-830 in this thread there's a link to this separate thread from late 2006. 
 
 
 
 
Feb 15, 2012 at 7:39 PM Post #18,917 of 27,139
Quote:
1 ) It lingers, yes, despite the spectacularly unpromising results. You asked about adding magnets to an existing driver; I'm not sure what an "ideal" implementation of that would be. Ericj was suggesting starting from scratch. But as I suggested, give it a try and see what happens.
 
2 ) At all? Honest, I did. In my very first post on the EAH-830 in this thread there's a link to this separate thread from late 2006. 



1) His description seemed vague. It sounded like he used semi-circular AKG magnet(s) around the perimeter of an SFI. Idk if I'm picturing his experiment wrong, but I imagined small disc magnets in between the holes of the HP-1's, or something like this. Poking around, it doesn't seem cost effective and I'd opt for this instead. I liked ericj's idea more for the EAH-820 because of their weak stock magnets.
 
2) I guess I'll just have to wait for the headphones to arrive. I read that thread (and forgot about actually) but still was wondering if you had any idea as to their uninspiring performance apart from the heat warped diaphragm and weak magnets, if that wasn't enough. Thanks for the help. Should be fun to work on.
 
Feb 16, 2012 at 1:44 AM Post #18,919 of 27,139
Hee hee. My EAH-830 was brought to me thanks in part to a generous grant from the tyre foundation. That was 6 years ago, too long to be uninspired. And, frankly, the 830 looks like it oughta just kill, but it doesn't. It's the sound that's uninspiring.
 
You don't need stronger magnets to make a headphone sound better, but as the Magliozzi brothers say, it couldn't hoit. The diaphragms heat-ripple because the magnets are weak and a lot of current has to flow in the voice coil to get much diaphragm movement. This doesn't affect sound quality until you blow the voice coil and/or delaminate it and/or melt a hole in the diaphragm.
 
But yeah, if you were going to try the supplemental-magnet gambit, this would be the 'phone to do it on. That's assuming your 830 is like mine. It may not be.
 
If you were going to start from scratch, the bar-magnet route sounds easiest. Your big problem would be getting the magnet array perfectly flat to keep the flux even everywhere in the gap. Well, that and keeping the magnets from making the headphone fly apart, a problem the 830 never had.
 
This could get interesting!
 
Feb 16, 2012 at 2:57 AM Post #18,920 of 27,139


Quote:
1) And, frankly, the 830 looks like it oughta just kill, but it doesn't. It's the sound that's uninspiring.
 
2) The diaphragms heat-ripple because the magnets are weak and a lot of current has to flow in the voice coil to get much diaphragm movement. This doesn't affect sound quality until you blow the voice coil and/or delaminate it and/or melt a hole in the diaphragm.
 
3) But yeah, if you were going to try the supplemental-magnet gambit, this would be the 'phone to do it on. That's assuming your 830 is like mine. It may not be.
 
4) If you were going to start from scratch, the bar-magnet route sounds easiest. Your big problem would be getting the magnet array perfectly flat to keep the flux even everywhere in the gap. Well, that and keeping the magnets from making the headphone fly apart, a problem the 830 never had.
 
This could get interesting!

1) I know! The diaphragm is beautiful. Not on par with the T50, or your beloved T30, but still very nice to look at, imo.
 
2) Let's hope my EAH-820 owner never used his pair, or was a jazz enthusiast in that case. I wasn't worried about it much, but it does make you cringe a bit.
 
3) You're saying if magnet strength is comparable between your 830 and my 820? As in the possibility Technics changed their magnet material/source/some other variable sometime during the EAH-8x0 production lifespan (unlikely, I'd guess and hope, for simplicity's sake), your magnets are abnormally weak for an unknown reason (also unlikely I'd guess), or something else specific to one of our pairs?
 
4) Yea I figured I'd replace the magnets altogether if I were to do anything in that department. In theme with your "field-replaceable" diaphragm statement, should be easy enough to find a block neodymium with the right specs and drill holes to match. In this scenario I don't imagine it being too hard to get both plates parallel.
 
Random hypothetical. You could even get away tapering the inside magnet faces by .1-.2mm? once, or twice with the added magnet strength. This could possibly replace the felt bumper allowing some extra room for the diaphragm to "stretch out" in. Thoughts?
 
 
Quote:
 
1. No, because this is an ortho driver and, theoretically at least, the uniform magnetic field applies force equally over the active surface of the diaphragm: iso-dynamic. For a similar reason a flat passive radiator on a speaker can be a simple disc of foamcore or even plain styrofoam-- the pressure inside the speaker box is the same over every point of the passive diaphragm, so there's no force trying to make the disc flip or ripple. 
 
2. Speakers use lightweight foam formed into half-roll shapes. Take a look at the socalled re-foaming kits for woofers and passives being sold online. Ideally the material would be acoustically dead plus have some appreciable vibration absorbing properties. I'm not claiming this would be easy to design or make or that it wouldn't create twice as many problems as it was meant to solve. It's just a thought experiment to explore ways we might, without resorting to rigidity, let a driver move as a flat plate, which is what it wants to do and what we want it to do.
 
3. Yeah, come on, you new crowd-- get out there and find the Missing Orthos. There aren't that many left, so it shouldn't take you more than a few minutes. Har. Seriously, see if you can find the mythical HP-1a.
 
 
Remember, we want to avoid extra stiffness and rigidity in our diaphragms-- the metal traces stiffen them up enough to require "dummy" traces in some cases to prevent sudden changes in diaphragm stiffness over the surface. Extra material means more mass, less air damping, lower efficiency.  But the Russians did a variation of your thinking on I believe the TDS 15: the magnets and voicecoil traces only cover the center area of the diaphragm. I don't know if this helped or hurt.
 


'Nother random. Why not "just" add an intermediate/periphery to the diaphragm like AKG on a much smaller scale. Dynamic manufacturers do this every day to achieve piston-like motion. I have to be missing something... What something am I missing?
 
Quote:
Walk around with orthos literally strapped to your head. Y'know, it might work...

 
And if anybody gives you grief, you just headbutt 'em...


Been there done that using SFI's mounted in MDR-CD380 baffles and a Scott headband stolen from old snowboarding goggles. It was so unimaginably easy to change felt damping schemes w/o having to deal with a single screw. Done right you can achieve realistic results compared to the fully assembled version. As originally posited, though, Idk about its vibrational damping...
 
Feb 16, 2012 at 4:08 AM Post #18,921 of 27,139
We've seen so much variation where we expected to see very little that I can't be totally confident that my 830's magnets are typical. If they are, then yeah, better magnets mean you can pull 'em farther apart and let the diaphragm stretch its leg, as D. Pinkwater put it.
 
And if it wants to really stretch its leg, I've long wondered about a nondriven stretchy annulus around the circumference that would let the whole surface move as a plane rather than dome up in the middle. Something like the foam half-roll surround on a woofer.
 
 
 
 
 
Feb 16, 2012 at 2:56 PM Post #18,922 of 27,139
Speaking the same language, different dialects, I guess. I had a stretched, curved, non-driven, peripheral segment of the diaphragm in mind to act as a spring [read adapted AKG varimotion] to achieve much the same thing as a stretchy annulus. Idk if my clarification was necessary. It seemed like you thought we were looking past each other, but that might just as easily fall on me. If someone were to pick up this technology I'd imagine you could easily get away with an SFI sized driver in something like a Sony G57G (Baby Stax, anyone?) to keep the cost down, yet still come away with a respectable bottom end.
 
Feb 16, 2012 at 5:16 PM Post #18,923 of 27,139
You think I thought they had a thought we seemed to be looking past each other, eh? Nah. Was trying to figure out reasons why a suspended diaphragm wouldn't work. I've been toying with the idea for many years and the only thing I can think of is instability due to variations in the flux despite best efforts. I think the diaphragm would need something more in the way of restoring force. Sawafuji simply used a gathered edge, the socalled Dynapleats. Well, there are simpler ways to get decent bass from a small driver.
 
Feb 16, 2012 at 9:25 PM Post #18,924 of 27,139
Quote:
You think I thought they had a thought we seemed to be looking past each other, eh?

Lol. Precisely.
Quote:
Was trying to figure out reasons why a suspended diaphragm wouldn't work. I've been toying with the idea for many years and the only thing I can think of is instability due to variations in the flux despite best efforts. I think the diaphragm would need something more in the way of restoring force. Sawafuji simply used a gathered edge, the socalled Dynapleats.

Seal the backwave with a dummy diaphragm?
 
Feb 17, 2012 at 12:49 PM Post #18,926 of 27,139


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"Memorial"? Sounds ominous... (touching wood, or iron, or..uhm... well.. something down low... as we do around these parts)
 
BTW, I have always been interested in the Amfiton TDS-15 which I also find great looking phones, and yesterday I discussed them a bit with Kabeer and got a sudden urge. The result is this, currently in Berlin waiting to be shipped
 

 
 
 


That looks great. I want one as well 
beerchug.gif

 
 
Feb 17, 2012 at 12:53 PM Post #18,927 of 27,139


Quote:
 
Oh-- I just saw Tyll Hertsens' latest blog entry wherein he and a bunch of hard-headed orthonauts are really bearing down on the Neo Ortho driver-variability problem and the related measurement-repeatability problem. Good reading.



This is why one should never ever have a listen to someone elses version of whatever one owns. Unless one is sure that ones own version sounds better.
Speaking of that, I am still very very happy that you told everyone that the YHD-2 was such a disaster :)
(The one that I got cheap because of that got such glorious strong deep bass :)
 
Feb 17, 2012 at 3:25 PM Post #18,928 of 27,139

Quote:
Speaking of that, I am still very very happy that you told everyone that the YHD-2 was such a disaster :) (The one that I got cheap because of that got such glorious strong deep bass :)

This proves that once we find something really excellent we should relentlessly trash it in public forums, and further, praise lousy stuff to the skies. This would be the equivalent of the Ortho Secret Handshake.
 
Once I found my first YHD-2 had been assembled incorrectly, and corrected my mistaken early posts, I still made the mistake of thinking that no one could possibly love a bassy, dullish headphone, not taking into account that the YHDs are really smooth, coherent bassy dullish headphones. It's the kind of curve the ear-brain can easily accommodate to.
 
 
 
Feb 17, 2012 at 3:28 PM Post #18,929 of 27,139
The stock YHD2 sounds bassy and dull?  The opposite of the YHD1?  That's surprising considering the frame is the same and the drivers are reported to sound really similar. 
 
And yeah, my "orthodynamic rankings list" would not be a good thing to have public. 
wink.gif

 

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