The Stax thread (New)

[FrankCooter]

If you really want to go cheap and can DIY, you might consider the Egmont. It's simple, can be easily "hot rodded" and can be built for about $300.00. With a KGSSHV  400V power supply, IXYS10M90 CCS loads on 7189 outputs, you'll have something that will be very competitive with anything in the $1.5k class. You'll have to dig around for the schematic in the DIY forum, but it's here,

 

[driggs]

Are there any after-market cables for the Stax pro cans (007mk2, 009's) that are better than the stock cables?  
 
And.... (I know this is a dumb question but I need to ask...) is there some way of connecting a normal headphone to the Stax pro amplifiers (some kind of an adaptor from PRO --> 3.5mm)??

 

[Beefy]

Quote:

Are there any after-market cables for the Stax pro cans (007mk2, 009's) that are better than the stock cables?  
 
And.... (I know this is a dumb question but I need to ask...) is there some way of connecting a normal headphone to the Stax pro amplifiers (some kind of an adaptor from PRO --> 3.5mm)??

To the first, no.
 
To the second, yes, that is an incredibly dumb question.
 
 

 

[KingLocal]

Quote:

I frequently think about the amount of importance of each link in the audio chain and sometimes I get confused because, even though the end of the chain is the most important bit, I just learned how big of an improvement a new tube can make. The sonic difference is not that big, but in the end, the difference in listening pleasure is really big. You just nailed it, really, what you said just clarified everything to me!
 

Thanks Leonardo.  Although I cannot remember who said it (sorry), I remember once reading someone saying: "everything sounds."  I do not think truer words were ever spoken--sometimes the difference is small, sometimes it is neither better nor worse but different, but there is nothing in the playback (or recording!) chain that does not contribute to, or subtract from, the performance that you are seeking to recreate.  Although often small (like with tube rolling or, in my experience, digital interconnects, for example), the difference can be profound. 
 
Of course a high-resolution system my be needed to appreciate the differences.  My main rig is a PS Audio PWD with Bridge into PMC AML1 active monitors--very resolving, but I must admit I cannot tell the difference between my commercial Diana Krall "All for You" vs. my XRCD pressing of the same--(subtle) differences I have heard on higher resolution systems.  On the other hand, with my headphone rig, AKG 701s straight out of my HP laptop, I cannot even tell the difference between low-bit-rate MP3s and the CDs from which they were ripped--something that is painfully clear on my PMC system.  Often, when I hear the "oh, you can't hear the difference anyway" crowd talk about power cords, isolation, tube rolling or whatever, I think that that is because they are listening on some crappy BOSE system--so of course they cannot hear the difference!
 
All this has factored into my concerns about partnering less-than-Great electronics with highly revealing cans like the 009s.  But the consensus seems strong that that is the thing to do vs. O2s and high-end electronics (thanks for the feedback!); I am leaning that way... but still, I believe that everything sounds.

 

[driggs]

Quote:

To the first, no.
 
To the second, yes, that is an incredibly dumb question.
 
 

Thanks Beefy.  I AM a 'newby'.  
 

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingLocal /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
My main rig is a PS Audio PWD with Bridge into PMC AML1 active monitors--very resolving, but I must admit I cannot tell the difference between my commercial Diana Krall "All for You" vs. my XRCD pressing of the same--(subtle) differences I have heard on higher resolution systems.  On the other hand, with my headphone rig, AKG 701s straight out of my HP laptop, I cannot even tell the difference between low-bit-rate MP3s and the CDs from which they were ripped--something that is painfully clear on my PMC system.  Often, when I hear the "oh, you can't hear the difference anyway" crowd talk about power cords, isolation, tube rolling or whatever, I think that that is because they are listening on some crappy BOSE system--so of course they cannot hear the difference!

 
The AKG would likely need a much better source and amp for you to get the most out of it. The K601 on the other hand has surprisingly little ability to scale with better equipment. I couldn't really tell the difference between my HM-801 and my Cowon with the K601, whereas with a headphone like the Beyer DT880 it's night/day in favor of the Hifiman.
 
I think the issues with the "it all sounds the same" crowd are either mediocre equipment, a lack of critical listening skills, or just a stubborn refusal to admit that a difference could even exist because the scopes and measurements don't show it (see the review that describes the Benchmark as the best DAC in history, and mocks anyone for thinking that DACs have any sort of sound signature.)
 
 

 

[Gradofan2]

 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveBSC /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
The AKG would likely need a much better source and amp for you to get the most out of it. The K601 on the other hand has surprisingly little ability to scale with better equipment. I couldn't really tell the difference between my HM-801 and my Cowon with the K601, whereas with a headphone like the Beyer DT880 it's night/day in favor of the Hifiman.
 
I think the issues with the "it all sounds the same" crowd are either mediocre equipment, a lack of critical listening skills, or just a stubborn refusal to admit that a difference could even exist because the scopes and measurements don't show it (see the review that describes the Benchmark as the best DAC in history, and mocks anyone for thinking that DACs have any sort of sound signature.)
 

Well... for some that may be true... but... more often than not... I think it's that whatever difference in sound anyone can perceive between two phones, or components, or set ups... that difference is typically so subtle, that it simply can't justify the high cost of the "high-priced spread."  And... some persons are just "effusive" about their stuff... especially, when they need to "justify" their decisions. 
 
 

 

[Gu Sensei]

@KingLocal
 
Once the 009s start getting shipped to dealers in the US and Europe, you will start to see the direct comparisons you are seeking. There are a lot of very experienced and knowledgeable Stax folks still waiting for their 009s.
 
I am interested to see how much the 009s change with a BHSE and have not trouble believing some nice benefits can be had. On the other had, I am extremely satisfied using the 717 and 323S with my 009s and feel no urgency to upgrade my amps nor can I identify any specific area where I feel the phones are struggling due to poor amplification. It will certainly be great news if the new Stax flagships are driven perfectly well with basic Stax amps as it sounds to me now. Personally, I will take much more interest in an amp upgrade when:
 
1. I find a well reasoned explanation grounded in the laws of physics as to why the 717 or 323S is insufficient to drive the SR009s.
2. I can identify in my own listening experience the specific issues caused by 'under-amping' with the amps I have.
3. I start to read about people reliably identifying the better amp with their 009s when they only have their ears to determine the answer.
 
I am curious about the 007/BHSE vs 009/Stax comparison as well but cannot possibly imagine that any kind of amp change can make up the ground between the 007s and 009s in technical capabilities. Another consideration would be differences in frequency responses and preference for non-fatiguing presentations. Beyond a slightly forward nature (IMO), I have never quite experienced the naked truth as I have with the 009s. For a lot of recordings, that is not a good thing. You might prefer less transparency and resolution in favor of a friendlier frequency balance and more easy on the ears listening experience.
 
I listen to a lot of pop and rock recordings and many of them (but far, far from all) are a bit too bright and rough to really enjoy. I have been tinkering a little with equalizing with the 009s and find a 3db push down in the upper mids/treble can really help with those recordings though. Any other owners doing any equalization?
 

 

[arnaud]

Quote:

Thanks for the advice arnaud.  Your suggestions seem very consistent with the prevailing views around here; it seems that people around here do not consider electronics to be nearly as important as their headphones.  I know little about cans, having been a life-long serious speaker listener and although I think that speakers are the single most important link in the audio chain, I also know from experience that electronics (and cables, isolation gear, etc.) can make a massive difference in listening pleasure... I would be surprised (and my pocketbook would be happy!) to learn that this is less the case with headphones but, as I said, my experience is much less than most with these things.  Has anyone actually compared, say, an O2-BHSE vs. a 009-717/727 rig?  Again, opinions and direct experience would be most helpful. ty again for the great feedback arnaud.

 
Quote:

I frequently think about the amount of importance of each link in the audio chain and sometimes I get confused because, even though the end of the chain is the most important bit, I just learned how big of an improvement a new tube can make. The sonic difference is not that big, but in the end, the difference in listening pleasure is really big. You just nailed it, really, what you said just clarified everything to me!
 

 
 
Quote:

I think the issues with the "it all sounds the same" crowd are either mediocre equipment, a lack of critical listening skills, or just a stubborn refusal to admit that a difference could even exist because the scopes and measurements don't show it (see the review that describes the Benchmark as the best DAC in history, and mocks anyone for thinking that DACs have any sort of sound signature.)

 
KingLocal, Neonardo and DaveBSC: I very much agree with you actually. I think the issue at hand here is that of the diminishing returns (oh do I feel like we're beating a dead horse ;0) )... I would say that - just like for loudspeakers - differences between headphones (within the same brand or even more across brands and transduction method e.g. electrostatic, electrodynamic, ortho) are much more drastic than a change in amplification (apart in case of very poor amp/can matching) or source. On the other, I also very much agree that what separates the truly excellent from what makes your spine tingles may boil down to rather small differences between components but which somehow work their magic on you (and possibly not someone else).
 
I am an engineer and have to rationalize reality through computer models all day long. As such, I have a natural tendency to be rather cartesian. Regardless, our measurement techniques are so primitive compared to the precision of our hearing that I really have no particular mind block against finding a component A to sound better than component B even though they measure just the same or shouldn't possibly sound different if you rationalize it. This is quite difficult for some to digest. This is unfortunately also an open door for snake oils of all sorts and mind gets quickly tricked into thinking something sounds better simply because it costs so much more or looks so good... Oh oh, hear comes the dead horse again .
 
Quote:

I would also suggest going with the 009 and one of the Stax amps, or maybe even a GES, I'm not sure that anyone has tried that combo yet. I'm very happy with my O2 Mk1 and have no plans to upgrade anytime soon, but I will be using it with a KGSSHV once it's finished. Maxing out the O2 means BHSE or DIYT2, and that means a very long wait.
 

I certainly don't want to stop here myself and will get a higher end amp one of these days but, like you, I am so satisfied at the moment I don't feel the urge to blow 5kUSD into a BHSE and just have to wait so long to get it. I am from this generation that got used to "instant gratification" and it is thus so hard to imagine I could wait so long for something!
 
Quote:

Thanks Beefy.  I AM a 'newby'.  

A tiny bit of background reading wouldn't hurt .
 
Quote:

Well... for some that may be true... but... more often than not... I think it's that whatever difference in sound anyone can perceive between two phones, or components, or set ups... that difference is typically so subtle, that it simply can't justify the high cost of the "high-priced spread."  And... some persons are just "effusive" about their stuff... especially, when they need to "justify" their decisions. 

We should try to list the number of threads / frequency with which we come back to the same topic of perceived, law of diminishing returns and such

 

[visualguy]

Quote:

I didn't say the BHSE and KGSS were close sonically nor did I intend to imply that - just that it'd take me weeks to figure out how they differ, because I don't listen to my CD-based system every day. More like twice a week, if that even - recently I've been going once per week, or once every other week. My ultraportable setup has been getting far more usage over the past few months.
 
I intend on amping up my listening frequency over the next few weeks, of course - will probably end up doing 3X per week or so.

I'll go even further and say that if the differences between the amps aren't apparent to you within 30 minutes of careful listening to a variety of music types on each amp, then I wouldn't consider the differences to be significant.
 

 

[livewire]

They are significant.
One's got tubes and one dont.
 
That being said, I am looking forward to Asr's impressions.

 

[visualguy]

 
Quote:

They are significant.
One's got tubes and one dont.
 
That being said, I am looking forward to Asr's impressions.

Certainly hoping for an objective comparison between those two amps - I've been curious for a long time about this since the KGSS seems to do an excellent job all-around, and I just haven't heard the sound of headphones (including stats) change all that much from amp to amp as long as the amps were decent (I tried 323S, 727a, 007ta, KGSS for stats, and numerous amps for dynamic headphones).
 
According to some experts, the BHSE doesn't have any "tubey" sound characteristics, by the way...
 

 

[livewire]

I'm no expert, but my take is that there is some tubeyness there.
The euphonic signature seems somewhat muted, it is a hybrid design after all.
I find the all transistor amps to be more clinical and true to the source,
the Blue Hawaii just has a sweeter, less edgy sound to it.
More musical if you will, without being overtly "lush" as many tube amps are.
I'm generalizing here, I heard both amps on the same day but no direct A-B trial.

 

[visualguy]

 
Don't know about the BHSE, but my SRM-007ta certainly doesn't have any tubeyness to its sound at all even though it has tubes (also a hybrid design). In fact, with my SR-009 I have a very hard time distinguishing the sound of my SRM-007ta from that of my KGSS.
 
 

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

I am an engineer and have to rationalize reality through computer models all day long. As such, I have a natural tendency to be rather cartesian. Regardless, our measurement techniques are so primitive compared to the precision of our hearing that I really have no particular mind block against finding a component A to sound better than component B even though they measure just the same or shouldn't possibly sound different if you rationalize it. This is quite difficult for some to digest. This is unfortunately also an open door for snake oils of all sorts and mind gets quickly tricked into thinking something sounds better simply because it costs so much more or looks so good... Oh oh, hear comes the dead horse again .

 
Indeed this topic is well traveled. I'm reminded of when Stereophile tested the Levinson 360S DAC, marked all of the considerable changes and upgrades over the standard 360, and then noted that all of the measurements were identical between the two units. The 360S is clearly an audible improvement over the 360 (not earth shattering, but it's there) and yet the measuring tools are none the wiser.
 
I actually find the cost + looks = better sound issue to be quite easy to ignore. I think anyone who falls in into that trap simply has no critical listening skills, or is just extremely insecure about their purchasing decisions. There have been many cases where I've had an expensive, great looking component or cable that I've really wanted to like, and I just couldn't make myself do it. I'd give the item 3rd, 4th, and 5th attempts to try and overcome my initial disappointment, and then another 100hrs of burn-in, and then try again, but sometimes I'm just not happy with the sound and regardless of great looks or high price, it's gone.