The Stax thread (New)

[milosz]

Quote:

you'd think if some people had gainful employment they could buy Stax systems for the time they've spent reading about them

That reminds me a little of Lee Elia's tirade at a Chicago Cubs press conference.....
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv23pqH9iG0  (note:  very blue language!)

 

[driggs]

Apart from the SR-007 mk2's, I'm expecting my new set of 009's.... does anyone have experience with this set using a SRM-007tII??  How does the pair match?  Does it have any of that "not enough controlled bottom-end" problem that the 007's have?  I am getting excited but nervous at the same time.... only 20 days away...

 

[visualguy]

 
Quote:

Apart from the SR-007 mk2's, I'm expecting my new set of 009's.... does anyone have experience with this set using a SRM-007tII??  How does the pair match?  Does it have any of that "not enough controlled bottom-end" problem that the 007's have?  I am getting excited but nervous at the same time.... only 20 days away...

I use the SR-009 with the SRM-007ta amp. That combination works fine, including the bass. I slightly prefer my KGSS, but the difference is quite minor.

The main issue I have with the SR-009 is that they are somewhat fatiguing, particularly with a bright source. That's why I use them with my Marantz SACD player, and not my Sony 5400ES player. The Sony works well with my SR-007 mk1.
 

 

[ardilla]

I have read that Stax/electrostats "push less air" than dynamics/orthos and therefore can be less fatiguing. Is this true? 
 
 

 

[driggs]

Quote:

 

I use the SR-009 with the SRM-007ta amp. That combination works fine, including the bass. I slightly prefer my KGSS, but the difference is quite minor.

The main issue I have with the SR-009 is that they are somewhat fatiguing, particularly with a bright source. That's why I use them with my Marantz SACD player, and not my Sony 5400ES player. The Sony works well with my SR-007 mk1.
 

Well, I'm happy that you think they match... wanted to avoid getting a larger amp, especially since they aren't available from Greece.  Are the 009's really 'fatiguing' or are they just a bit "less soft" than the 007's? Surely they can't be as "fatiguing" when compared to, say, HD800's....  I'm hoping the 009s are more revealing, not "fatiguing"... I have the Nagra CDP, sent to the Stax amp via the Nagra PLL - not exactly a "soft" source but very detailed.
 
Anyway, I find my HD800's "fatiguing" but more open and extended than the Stax 007s, so Im hoping 009's will be the best of both worlds...
 
BTW, I put "fatiguing" in quotes because it may not necessarily be a negative thing since "fatigue" is often associated with the mid-to-top end, the high-frequencies, the sharpness... which can work well sometimes.   


Quote:

I have read that Stax/electrostats "push less air" than dynamics/orthos and therefore can be less fatiguing. Is this true? 
 
 

It may be a factor... but sound-wise, the voices and top-end frequencies of the Stax 007s are just "smoother" but detailed at the same time - it's that "Stax magic".  It's just sometimes they sound veiled compared to some of the more modern cans...  I think the new generation of Stax cans have changed this now.
 
 

 

[milosz]

Quote:

I have read that Stax/electrostats "push less air" than dynamics/orthos and therefore can be less fatiguing. Is this true? 
 
 

This is not strictly correct.
 
While it IS true that electrostatic headphones in general have somewhat limited excursion when compared to dynamic headphones, this really only impacts the maximum SPL of the lowest bass notes, where a fair amount of air needs to be "pushed."  So, compared to good quality dynamic phones, Stax tend to have a little less bass "impact" or "punch" which is related to large excursions. Don't confuse this with bass "speed" or ability to reproduce low bass- Stax phones excel in both these areas.  It's just that there are limits to how loud an electrostatic can play at 30 Hz.  Bass "impact" seems to come from short, loud low frequency bursts, and this requires generally more excursion than electrostats are capable of. 
 
I  think that Stax headphones ARE less fatiguing than many of the dynamic and planar designs- for example the Sennheiser HD800 and HiFiMan HE-6, but I think this is because the Sennhesiser HD-800 and to a lesser degree the HE-6 achieve their high levels of "detail" by having big peaks in their treble response. Loud treble can be very fatiguing. It sounds kind of great, but if you listen loud, your ears will hurt.
 
Stax headphones have some treble peakiness but it is gentler, and in general the Stax have a more neutral, less aggressive character, with very good midrange- I find  that when I adjust the level to a nice loud volume that I prefer, I am setting it based on what I hear in mids and upper bass, and if the treble is a lot stronger than these mids, it will make my ears hurt.    And probably eventually damage my hearing, I might add.  But I find that that my while Lambda Signatures have some treble emphasis, it is nowhere near as much as the HD800's.  I can listen quite a long time to the Stax, although with Stax I have other problems- the leather earpads make my ears hot, which doesn't happen with velour earpads like the HD800s have (or Beyers, for that matter.) 
 
 
So I would say that Stax headphones ARE generally less fatiguing, but it is related to flatter frequency response, and not "air pushing" ability.
 

---

I suppose it is also true that excursion limits of the electrostatic transducers DO limit also ultimate maximum midrange and treble SPL's, but really Stax (and other electrostatics) can produce WAY HIGHER SPL's in the mids' and highs than ANYONE would listen to, so this never becomes an issue.

 

[vrln]

In my experience, electrostatics are the only headphones that do treble correctly. Dynamics are sibilant and fatiguing (hi HD 800!), or they just roll off the treble (HD 650). Planars on the other hand don't have a soundstage...
 
PS: put up my SRM-600 for sale in the amplification forums - yes, shameless plug I'm downsizing my rig, keeping my SRM-323S and SR-507. 

 

[ardilla]

So - which is less fatiguing - HD650, LCD-2 or STAX model XXXX ?
 
Quote:

This is not strictly correct.
 
While it IS true that electrostatic headphones in general have somewhat limited excursion when compared to dynamic headphones, this really only impacts the maximum SPL of the lowest bass notes, where a fair amount of air needs to be "pushed."  So, compared to good quality dynamic phones, Stax tend to have a little less bass "impact" or "punch" which is related to large excursions. Don't confuse this with bass "speed" or ability to reproduce low bass- Stax phones excel in both these areas.  It's just that there are limits to how loud an electrostatic can play at 30 Hz.  Bass "impact" seems to come from short, loud low frequency bursts, and this requires generally more excursion than electrostats are capable of. 
 
I  think that Stax headphones ARE less fatiguing than many of the dynamic and planar designs- for example the Sennheiser HD800 and HiFiMan HE-6, but I think this is because the Sennhesiser HD-800 and to a lesser degree the HE-6 achieve their high levels of "detail" by having big peaks in their treble response. Loud treble can be very fatiguing. It sounds kind of great, but if you listen loud, your ears will hurt.
 
Stax headphones have some treble peakiness but it is gentler, and in general the Stax have a more neutral, less aggressive character, with very good midrange- I find  that when I adjust the level to a nice loud volume that I prefer, I am setting it based on what I hear in mids and upper bass, and if the treble is a lot stronger than these mids, it will make my ears hurt.    And probably eventually damage my hearing, I might add.  But I find that that my while Lambda Signatures have some treble emphasis, it is nowhere near as much as the HD800's.  I can listen quite a long time to the Stax, although with Stax I have other problems- the leather earpads make my ears hot, which doesn't happen with velour earpads like the HD800s have (or Beyers, for that matter.) 
 
 
So I would say that Stax headphones ARE generally less fatiguing, but it is related to flatter frequency response, and not "air pushing" ability.
 

---

I suppose it is also true that excursion limits of the electrostatic transducers DO limit also ultimate maximum midrange and treble SPL's, but really Stax (and other electrostatics) can produce WAY HIGHER SPL's in the mids' and highs than ANYONE would listen to, so this never becomes an issue.

 

 

[arnaud]

 
Quote:

Originally Posted by milosz /img/forum/go_quote.gif

While it IS true that electrostatic headphones in general have somewhat limited excursion when compared to dynamic headphones, this really only impacts the maximum SPL of the lowest bass notes, where a fair amount of air needs to be "pushed."  So, compared to good quality dynamic phones, Stax tend to have a little less bass "impact" or "punch" which is related to large excursions.

 
There is some SPL limit to any transducer and indeed electrostatic might be more limited that electrodynamic designs due to the small spacing gap between the stator. On the other hand, the membrane is so much larger than most electrodynamics that the excursion must be less for a given SPL. AFAIK, this has nothing to with impact itself unless Stax headphones are effectively non-linear well within the max SPL range, are they?
 
I think I read in the past that this apparent lack of impact compared to electrodynamic headphones might be due to the flexible membrane (as opposed to an eletro-dynamic diaphragm that moves like piston at low frequencies). But considering that the electrostatic force is applied on the whole surface, I imagine the membrane simply moves completely in phase with max displacement at the center of the diaphragm.
 
I would say also that my 009 has much much more impact than 007. It may have to do with the new electrode, but it could also be that the 009 is simply easier to drive so Stax amps can do it justice. In other words, not all Stax headphone have the same behavior in regards to impact and the driving amplifier might have some to do with it as well? I can't tell since unfortunately I could never hear better than my 727A...
 

Quote:

I  think that Stax headphones ARE less fatiguing than many of the dynamic and planar designs- for example the Sennheiser HD800 and HiFiMan HE-6, but I think this is because the Sennhesiser HD-800 and to a lesser degree the HE-6 achieve their high levels of "detail" by having big peaks in their treble response. Loud treble can be very fatiguing. It sounds kind of great, but if you listen loud, your ears will hurt.
 
Stax headphones have some treble peakiness but it is gentler, and in general the Stax have a more neutral, less aggressive character, with very good midrange- I find  that when I adjust the level to a nice loud volume that I prefer, I am setting it based on what I hear in mids and upper bass, and if the treble is a lot stronger than these mids, it will make my ears hurt.    And probably eventually damage my hearing, I might add.  But I find that that my while Lambda Signatures have some treble emphasis, it is nowhere near as much as the HD800's.  I can listen quite a long time to the Stax, although with Stax I have other problems- the leather earpads make my ears hot, which doesn't happen with velour earpads like the HD800s have (or Beyers, for that matter.) 

 
I agree that peaks in the 6-8kHz region like the HD800 does are likely a source of fatiguing sound. I believe though that some Stax headphones have similar problems. For instance, I always thought the SR-404 to sound metallic, unnatural in the upper mids / low highs. The SR007mkII is indeed very very easy sounding to my ears, even with poor recordings. The SR009 on the other hand is much less willing to hide anything. I can't hear any particular emphasis of some bands (and the voices are for instance very natural although not overly warm / heavy / sirupy), but clearly the headphone is fatiguing if you listen loud to an average recording.

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

In my experience, electrostatics are the only headphones that do treble correctly. Dynamics are sibilant and fatiguing (hi HD 800!), or they just roll off the treble (HD 650). Planars on the other hand don't have a soundstage...
 
PS: put up my SRM-600 for sale in the amplification forums - yes, shameless plug I'm downsizing my rig, keeping my SRM-323S and SR-507. 

Depends on which electrostat. The highs from the O2 Mk1 fit me like a glove. By the way, you can put your for sale items into your signature so that they appear in every post.
 

 

[n3rdling]

 
Quote:

So - which is less fatiguing - HD650, LCD-2 or STAX model XXXX ?
 


 

Really depends on which Stax headphone you're talking about.  The O2 is probably the least fatiguing headphone there is though.
 

 

[visualguy]

Quote:

Are the 009's really 'fatiguing' or are they just a bit "less soft" than the 007's? Surely they can't be as "fatiguing" when compared to, say, HD800's....  I'm hoping the 009s are more revealing, not "fatiguing"... I have the Nagra CDP, sent to the Stax amp via the Nagra PLL - not exactly a "soft" source but very detailed.
 
 

I can listen to the SR-007 mk1 for much longer periods than the SR-009 before my ears get tired. The SR-009 are technically better, but they are more tiring to listen to, unfortunately.
 
 

 

[MrGreen]

Depending on how long I've been without headphones, I find my stax to be one of the more fatiguing phones. I don't think the 007 was fatiguing but it was too dark in the setup I heard. I also find that electrostat bass can be more fatiguing than dynamic bass, because it seems less homogeneous (so changing to a track with loud, staccatto nbass can be hard to listen to)
 
I've never felt faituged by a dynamic headphone, but i've never taken long gaps due to time constraints
 
Stax gives me no prblems after a little while. It also depends how I am listening
 
Stax is worth anything for the sound alone. Nothing I have heard commes close

 

[edstrelow]

Quote:

Depending on how long I've been without headphones, I find my stax to be one of the more fatiguing phones. I don't think the 007 was fatiguing but it was too dark in the setup I heard. I also find that electrostat bass can be more fatiguing than dynamic bass, because it seems less homogeneous (so changing to a track with loud, staccatto nbass can be hard to listen to)
 
I've never felt faituged by a dynamic headphone, but i've never taken long gaps due to time constraints
 
Stax gives me no prblems after a little while. It also depends how I am listening
 
Stax is worth anything for the sound alone. Nothing I have heard commes close

You don't say what your Stax rig is. 
 
The Stax phones vary quite a lot in sonic signature and can vary yet again depending on what amp is use to drive them.
 
The 007 MkI was often criticized as sounding dark with Stax tube amps, but not with other amps.  I heard several at Canjam LA 2 years ago an thought they were well-balanced but   I didn't care for their excessive fart.
 

 

[MrGreen]

Quote:

You don't say what your Stax rig is. 
 
The Stax phones vary quite a lot in sonic signature and can vary yet again depending on what amp is use to drive them.
 
The 007 MkI was often criticized as sounding dark with Stax tube amps, but not with other amps.  I heard several at Canjam LA 2 years ago an thought they were well-balanced but   I didn't care for their excessive fart.
 

Audiofire 12 - Stax T1 - Lambda Sig

I'm aware some people consider the lambda signature bright, but frankly I don't see it looking much different frequency wise compared ot other lambdas (which are all basically perfect free-field responses). Technically speaking, my Ety ER4S are brighter, as they're not only a diffuse field curve, but they're canalphones (which means more treble is required, as documented by Moller), and I do not find them fatiguing at all. I've actually considered turning UP the treble of my lambda sigs, because I think I prefer (if only marginally), the diffuse field curve
 
 I was offering it as a general take on stax, as I've heard headphones that have a similarish sonic balance, but are less agile and more smeary with details - which is what I attribute the issue to.

  007 was from an ExStata,  think (or some tube thingy). Far from ideal, but I didn't care enough to look into it more, as it didn't suit my fancy. I have no reason to upgrade, and haven't even considered doing so since getting my stax rig. FWIW my brief experience with the 007 was not with "cold ears", which is the only time I can find the stax confronting after 3/4 of an album. Otherwise, it's fine for 2+ (which is what I always limit myself to for noise exposure and time constraint, since I usually do nothing when I listen to music)
 
Fatigue aside, cold ear stax listening is really something else, if you're into thrill seeking. I do it by necessity, sometimes, as I wear earplugs a lot at work. It's like hearing hifi for the first time again
 
Cheers