[Mossback]

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  including legal 'to code' installation my panel was less than $14k. less powerful versions are somewhat less. that's not chicken feed, but if you consider that you are doing a performance upgrade to every component (in most cases upgrades not otherwise possible) then it's cheaper than many other gear changes you might consider.

 

I really do wonder if you'd rather not buy an omega and blue hawai for that money or the new stax flagship when it's out (c32?). That's probably a much cheaper and more drastic improvement. Still, I suppose if you can afford the panel and believe it's bang for buck...but I somewhat doubt it.

i see your point for someone who is at the entry point of state-of-the-art high end audio. acquiring the top level amps and headphones would be the higher priority than over-the-top power grid management. but once a person has bought the gear that he/she wants, and then is considering how to attain optimal performance, the power grid is always the '500 pound gorrila' in the room. or, if you are into speakers instead of headphones, the room acoustics is even more important than the power grid.
 
i've had a custom designed room built....and acquired the gear i wanted. the Equi=tech was dotting the 'i' and crossing the 't' for my system optimization. since i already have the Equi-tech, and i'm now entering the 'headphone zone' aspiring to find top performance, absolutely i'm interested in the BHSE, of a DIY T-2, or the like, i've already bought a O2 Mk1, and am interested on whatever the C32 becomes.
 
my point really was that whole system power grid isolation is a step needed if you really want to ascend the heights of performance. but it's a final step. and assuming you have the living environment which works for it, it's a more cost effective (and markedly higher performing) way to go in many cases too than add-on power conditioning boxes.

 

[BoilermakerFan]

 
Quote:

>including legal 'to code' installation my panel was less than $14k. less powerful versions are somewhat less. that's not chicken feed, but if you consider that you are doing a performance upgrade to every component (in most cases upgrades not otherwise possible) then it's cheaper than many other gear changes you might consider.



I really do wonder if you'd rather not buy an omega and blue hawai for that money or the new stax flagship when it's out (c32?). That's probably a much cheaper and more drastic improvement. Still, I suppose if you can afford the panel and believe it's bang for buck...but I somewhat doubt it.

 
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  including legal 'to code' installation my panel was less than $14k. less powerful versions are somewhat less. that's not chicken feed, but if you consider that you are doing a performance upgrade to every component (in most cases upgrades not otherwise possible) then it's cheaper than many other gear changes you might consider.

 

I really do wonder if you'd rather not buy an omega and blue hawai for that money or the new stax flagship when it's out (c32?). That's probably a much cheaper and more drastic improvement. Still, I suppose if you can afford the panel and believe it's bang for buck...but I somewhat doubt it.

i see your point for someone who is at the entry point of state-of-the-art high end audio. acquiring the top level amps and headphones would be the higher priority than over-the-top power grid management. but once a person has bought the gear that he/she wants, and then is considering how to attain optimal performance, the power grid is always the '500 pound gorrila' in the room. or, if you are into speakers instead of headphones, the room acoustics is even more important than the power grid.
 
i've had a custom designed room built....and acquired the gear i wanted. the Equi=tech was dotting the 'i' and crossing the 't' for my system optimization. since i already have the Equi-tech, and i'm now entering the 'headphone zone' aspiring to find top performance, absolutely i'm interested in the BHSE, of a DIY T-2, or the like, i've already bought a O2 Mk1, and am interested on whatever the C32 becomes.
 
my point really was that whole system power grid isolation is a step needed if you really want to ascend the heights of performance. but it's a final step. and assuming you have the living environment which works for it, it's a more cost effective (and markedly higher performing) way to go in many cases too than add-on power conditioning boxes.

I won't derail the thread too much more, but I'll add that Mossback has his audio room in a separate building and he's feeding it from his main.  His install is the ideal situation and maximizes his benefits and minimizes his overall costs because he would have to have purchased the load center and breakers anyway.  His cost includes the cost to have it installed to code.  I won't post numbers, but that gives me a pretty good idea how much  the unit costs, unless he received greatly discounted labor and he would have had to pay at least half that cost just to have a cheap residential panel installed to code.  For home owners with existing load centers, there are much less costly ways to add isolation to a system.  I think Mossback realized that was the intent of my comment since he stated he edited his post, which I didn't see the original reply...
 
Mossback, I'm sure the toroid iron is custom, but they are very open and explain what is custom.  Their Dry-Type transformers are semi-custom, I used to work for Cutler-Hammer and they make a lot of transformers for others and many are tweaked just slightly to meet specific applications.  The Dry-Types actually isolate better, but they are big beasts and need to installed outside the building since they do love to hum along.  I'm interested in one of the Q-style toroids and I'll see how they compare to a custom wound unit from another manufacturer. 
 
As he has it, Mossback could have used a traditional load center and just added the stand alone Equi=Tech isolation transformer, but I will admit their box is much more aesthetically pleasing than a standard load center and sub-panel:
 

 
OK, I'm done side-tracking...

 

[Mossback]

 
Quote:

 
Quote:

>including legal 'to code' installation my panel was less than $14k. less powerful versions are somewhat less. that's not chicken feed, but if you consider that you are doing a performance upgrade to every component (in most cases upgrades not otherwise possible) then it's cheaper than many other gear changes you might consider.



I really do wonder if you'd rather not buy an omega and blue hawai for that money or the new stax flagship when it's out (c32?). That's probably a much cheaper and more drastic improvement. Still, I suppose if you can afford the panel and believe it's bang for buck...but I somewhat doubt it.

 
Quote:

Quote:

 
Quote:

  including legal 'to code' installation my panel was less than $14k. less powerful versions are somewhat less. that's not chicken feed, but if you consider that you are doing a performance upgrade to every component (in most cases upgrades not otherwise possible) then it's cheaper than many other gear changes you might consider.

 

I really do wonder if you'd rather not buy an omega and blue hawai for that money or the new stax flagship when it's out (c32?). That's probably a much cheaper and more drastic improvement. Still, I suppose if you can afford the panel and believe it's bang for buck...but I somewhat doubt it.

i see your point for someone who is at the entry point of state-of-the-art high end audio. acquiring the top level amps and headphones would be the higher priority than over-the-top power grid management. but once a person has bought the gear that he/she wants, and then is considering how to attain optimal performance, the power grid is always the '500 pound gorrila' in the room. or, if you are into speakers instead of headphones, the room acoustics is even more important than the power grid.
 
i've had a custom designed room built....and acquired the gear i wanted. the Equi=tech was dotting the 'i' and crossing the 't' for my system optimization. since i already have the Equi-tech, and i'm now entering the 'headphone zone' aspiring to find top performance, absolutely i'm interested in the BHSE, of a DIY T-2, or the like, i've already bought a O2 Mk1, and am interested on whatever the C32 becomes.
 
my point really was that whole system power grid isolation is a step needed if you really want to ascend the heights of performance. but it's a final step. and assuming you have the living environment which works for it, it's a more cost effective (and markedly higher performing) way to go in many cases too than add-on power conditioning boxes.

I won't derail the thread too much more, but I'll add that Mossback has his audio room in a separate building and he's feeding it from his main.  His install is the ideal situation and maximizes his benefits and minimizes his overall costs because he would have to have purchased the load center and breakers anyway.  His cost includes the cost to have it installed to code.  I won't post numbers, but that gives me a pretty good idea how much  the unit costs, unless he received greatly discounted labor and he would have had to pay at least half that cost just to have a cheap residential panel installed to code.  For home owners with existing load centers, there are much less costly ways to add isolation to a system.  I think Mossback realized that was the intent of my comment since he stated he edited his post, which I didn't see the original reply...
 
Mossback, I'm sure the toroid iron is custom, but they are very open and explain what is custom.  Their Dry-Type transformers are semi-custom, I used to work for Cutler-Hammer and they make a lot of transformers for others and many are tweaked just slightly to meet specific applications.  The Dry-Types actually isolate better, but they are big beasts and need to installed outside the building since they do love to hum along.  I'm interested in one of the Q-style toroids and I'll see how they compare to a custom wound unit from another manufacturer. 
 
As he has it, Mossback could have used a traditional load center and just added the stand alone Equi=Tech isolation transformer, but I will admit their box is much more aesthetically pleasing than a standard load center and sub-panel:
 

 
OK, I'm done side-tracking...

Boilermaker,
 
thanks. you obviously are a knowledgable professional at this stuff and i appreciate your viewpoint to educate me (and others) about how this stuff works. i'm just a enthusiast listener who relates what my ears tell me and hopefully i don't confuse people too much with my story.
 
and i did not intend to de-rail the thread, sorry about that.

 

[BoilermakerFan]

Mossback
 
I'll drop you a PM later tonight.  I want to see the rest of the barn.  That's just one of my sub-panels and I did 85% of the work myself with a Homeowner's Permit.  I will confess, my best friend is a 10+ year journeyman electrician, so I had very good guidance even though he couldn't actually do the work.

 

[EddieE]

 
Some early impressions on the SR-303 with the SR507 leather pads.
 
About the pads - the leather used on the uppers is very soft and smooth to the touch, the underside of the pad you stick to the baffle is pleather. They come with oval speaker cloth screens as a separate part. The leather pads do not have pockets for the screens, which are placed directly against the metal grill in front of the driver.
 
Before starting I will add the disclaimer that it is very hard to be very confident in the accuracy of my impressions due to the time it takes to remove one set of pads/filters and get the other on. Many subtle differences may just have been lost. As limited as it may be, the best way to get a firm impression was to listen with one set of pads for a good few days then to sudently switch back to the other, which is what I did. These are early impressions, it's possible I'll change my mind.
 
First off, for me, the comfort is much better. That's a relief as this is the main reason I wanted to get rid of the old pads and foam screens. My ears stick out and were constantly touching the foam, which I found very itchy and abrasive. My ears do touch the cloth screen too, but it is far less irritating. 
 
I don't know why this surprised me but I found that the SR507 pads and cloth actually lend something of the SR507 sound signature to the SR-303 which, for me, is a massive plus. I fell I love with Stax listening to a pair of SR507 at a meet, and the vibrancy of the sound, the speed and details and impact are all replicated on a lesser scale by transplanting those pads and cloth onto the lower Stax.
 
Getting into detail, when I returned to the pleather pads with foam filters after a week I noticed the sound was veiled. The overall presentation was softer and smoother but was missing some of the detail and clarity, not to mention solidity and weight, it had with the leather/cloth combo. In favour of the foam and the bulkier old pads though is the sense of space and air to the sound. The sound stage, while still very natural and large is diminished with the leather pads. I wonder if this could be fixed by adding a distancer between the baffle and pad...
 
Going back again to the leather I really do not detect any rolling off of the HF others have mentioned. Does not mean it was not there but that if it was too subtle for to be sure of it's of no concern to me. The bass is definitely not decreased and if anything it is slightly increased in quantity and definitely increased in clarity and impact.
 
I prefer the leather pads with cloth screens, but think it is really an issue of personal preference and both are great sounding options. Rather than one being inherently better than the other, it will come down to what your personal favourite flavour is. Some will prefer that smoother, airier presentation of the foam and pleather but for me the vibrancy, clarity and speed of the leather/cloth combinaton was much preferred.

 

[DaveBSC]

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Has anyone ever bought or used a PS Audio Power Plant Premier. ............ I highly reccommend the PS Audio Power Plant Premier.  PS Audio also makes other elecrical products. 

Thanks for the heads up. I've narrow down my search to a used PPP but am still a couple months away from pulling the trigger. I think the price is great if one can find a used unit.

For whatever it's worth, I was not impressed with the PPP I had. Build quality at least for awhile was very suspect. The PS forums were pretty full with people have the "click of death" issue. Mine ended up having it after a year or so, and PS just sent me a brand new one rather than attempt a repair. I'm not sure what causes it, but I would be concerned about an out of warranty PPP. It would be fine if it was backed like a Bryston, but it isn't. 3 years isn't a long time for a component like that.
 
Aside from the reliability issue, I just don't think it sounded all that fantastic. PS solved the ravenous power consumption and limited output issues of the earlier Power Plants by going to a digital amplifier to create the 60Hz wave, and I wonder about how much switching noise it creates while its cleaning up the AC line noise. The PPP in my system was also hyper sensitive to the quality of the cord feeding it from the wall, and didn't seem to do a fantastic job at isolating noisy downstream components from each other. I ended up just selling the replacement unit that I received from PS. I haven't owned any other regenerators but I've heard a few over the years in several systems, and frankly I just don't think the idea works as well in practice as PS's and other co's extensive marketing would indicate.
 
I think the best sounding conditioners right now are still the traditional passive types - Running Springs Dmitri and Maxim and Audience's Teflon Adept Response models. I've also heard a lot of good stuff about Isotek's Nova and Titan models and would like to check those out. Granted all of these are very expensive. For modest stereos and headphone setups that draw less than 7A, a B-P-T isolation transformer would work very well for around $800 or so, and should be as reliable as a wood burning stove.

 

[Don Quichotte]

Quote:

 
Some early impressions on the SR-303 with the SR507 leather pads.
 
About the pads - the leather used on the uppers is very soft and smooth to the touch, the underside of the pad you stick to the baffle is pleather. They come with oval speaker cloth screens as a separate part. The leather pads do not have pockets for the screens, which are placed directly against the metal grill in front of the driver.
 
Before starting I will add the disclaimer that it is very hard to be very confident in the accuracy of my impressions due to the time it takes to remove one set of pads/filters and get the other on. Many subtle differences may just have been lost. As limited as it may be, the best way to get a firm impression was to listen with one set of pads for a good few days then to sudently switch back to the other, which is what I did. These are early impressions, it's possible I'll change my mind.
 
First off, for me, the comfort is much better. That's a relief as this is the main reason I wanted to get rid of the old pads and foam screens. My ears stick out and were constantly touching the foam, which I found very itchy and abrasive. My ears do touch the cloth screen too, but it is far less irritating. 
 
I don't know why this surprised me but I found that the SR507 pads and cloth actually lend something of the SR507 sound signature to the SR-303 which, for me, is a massive plus. I fell I love with Stax listening to a pair of SR507 at a meet, and the vibrancy of the sound, the speed and details and impact are all replicated on a lesser scale by transplanting those pads and cloth onto the lower Stax.
 
Getting into detail, when I returned to the pleather pads with foam filters after a week I noticed the sound was veiled. The overall presentation was softer and smoother but was missing some of the detail and clarity, not to mention solidity and weight, it had with the leather/cloth combo. In favour of the foam and the bulkier old pads though is the sense of space and air to the sound. The sound stage, while still very natural and large is diminished with the leather pads. I wonder if this could be fixed by adding a distancer between the baffle and pad...
 
Going back again to the leather I really do not detect any rolling off of the HF others have mentioned. Does not mean it was not there but that if it was too subtle for to be sure of it's of no concern to me. The bass is definitely not decreased and if anything it is slightly increased in quantity and definitely increased in clarity and impact.
 
I prefer the leather pads with cloth screens, but think it is really an issue of personal preference and both are great sounding options. Rather than one being inherently better than the other, it will come down to what your personal favourite flavour is. Some will prefer that smoother, airier presentation of the foam and pleather but for me the vibrancy, clarity and speed of the leather/cloth combinaton was much preferred.

Thanks for posting your impressions. After my experience with old vs. new pads I became quite convinced that pads can indeed make a serious difference, I suppose (just suppose, I don't have first hand experience with 404) even greater than the cable, i.e. 303 vs. 404. Glad you like the change.
Your impressions don't quite mirror mine, which doesn't surprise me that much considering that you have tried the leather new pads, while I've tried the pleather ones. With the cloth inside the baffle opening, resting against the metal mesh, I also found the sound very transparent, I don't know if more transparent than with the old pads with foam but quite a lot so, and the highs were very good and extended (as very opposed to the old pads with cloth inserted where used to be the foam).
With the cloth inside the baffle opening I found the bass somewhat diminished (with the new pads) or seriously diminished (with the old pads with foam removed) as compared to the old/foam pads, so perhaps the leather pads increase the bass to the point where it exceeds the old/foam pads bass. You may also be right about the soundstage width, I don't remember, and I definitely prefer a very large soundstage to a narrow but accurate one (due to my cheap source that doesn't image precisely enough anyway and due to my past long years of musical pleasure in the company of the AKG K501).
However, one thing that does surprise me is the fact that you found the leather pads to have greater impact that the old/foam ones. Please note that I have tried:
- old pads with foam
- new pleather pads with cloth inside the baffle; also with the cloth inside the pads pockets
- old pads with cloth inside the baffle; also with the cloth in the position previously occupied by the foam
- old and new pads without any cloth or foam
- old and new pads with all kind of very "transparent", thin materials as replacements for Stax foam or cloth (mostly women scarves made of silk and similar stuff - all had too little bass)
Regardless of the foam or cloth thingy inside, in my experience the old pads themselves were obviously punchier (and not only in the bass iirc) than the new pleather pads - I repeat, I'm just comparing the pads themselves here. I think the old pads emphasized the midbass a bit, while the new pleather pads emphasized more the lower bass while the midbass was comparatively more subdued. If both our reports are "correct" (whatever that means), then the leather new pads must sound very different to the pleather new ones - at least with respect to the impact or punch.
I've just noticed you said several things about the bass w. leather pads: solidity, weight, quantity, impact, clarity. Perhaps with new pleather pads one could also perceive the bass as weightier due to the stronger low bass, impact is something else for me.
 
As a general conclusion, I think it's a good idea for the various Stax Lambda series users to try the different kinds of pads as they might discover this way an easy solution to subjectively upgrade their headphones. I also find the edstrelow's idea of removing the back foam interesting, but I must confess I didn't have the guts to try it as I've already had enough problems with my 303s. Unfortunately, I don't like to use leather, meat etc., so I'll not try the leather pads myself (my K1000's headband and pads are an exception as the phones were bought used when they were already out of production). But that's just me and a very different topic that has no place in this thread, I'm just too talkative now.

 

[EddieE]

[size=10pt]This is a problem I always have with writing things up – is the language I am using different to that others are? Maybe...[/size]
 
[size=10pt]Bass quantity I would describe the general volume of the bass regions. When it comes to low bass I am not 100% certain but feel that the bass quantity between the two options is pretty similar, and maybe the leather have a little more (again I have no strong conviction on this – they are certainly close) but I do believe they have greater impact.[/size]
 
[size=10pt]What I mean by impact might be different to what you mean. What I refer to is I guess a combination of speed and clarity. For example a kick-drum – how defined that sound is, how quickly it arrives and how quickly it is gone, how clear the decay of the note is. The difference between *Bop!* and *Brrrp*. You can have phones where the bass quantity is through the roof but it has no definition, no control - no real impact. [/size]
 
[size=10pt]Maybe I’m using the term wrong here but that is what I meant.[/size]
 
[size=10pt]But there is a passage in what you wrote that seems to reconcile both of our experiences:[/size]
 
[size=10pt]. I think the old pads emphasized the midbass a bit, while the new pleather pads emphasized more the lower bass while the midbass was comparatively more subdued.[/size]
 
[size=10pt]Yes, this would explain it. The over riding smoothness and richness of the old pads, but slight drop in clarity and transparency (which for me are very much tied up in impact) is down to emphasised mid bass. [/size]
 
[size=10pt]Once the mid bass veil is lifted a bit the low bass is probably not increased (if you think about what is happening – decreased bass means more escapes on the way to your ear – leather and pleather should be the same really in that respect) but can be heard more clearly, as can the rest of the frequency response. Without the mid bass filter which uniformly warms and smoothes out the sound but also some of the detail - everything becomes clearer and has more authority. On the downside, you loose some of the naturalistic tone that lush warmness provides.[/size]
 
[size=10pt]Anyway, after another week with the leathers on I will switch back suddenly to pleathers again and see what I think again then will finally do the clean up and reglue for good then. May also remove the back screen as I am very worried about what will happen when that foam degrades…[/size]

 

[Don Quichotte]

You may be right. By "impact" I mean the tactile feeling of (sudden) pressure against the tympani, the thing that electrostatics are said to be doing less convincingly than dynamics because of their transducers moving less air (I cannot generalize, I haven't heard the O2s, but my 303 definitely have weaker impact than any of my AKGs). It's not something restricted to the bass area. I also remember that comparing only the pads themselves (both with cloth, for example) I thought the new pleather pads might be a bit more precise & relaxed. Both aspects, this and the imo superior impact / midbass presence of the old pads, I tend to believe are mainly due to the distance between the transducer and the ear, which is smaller with the new pads than with the old, thicker ones. Oh, and the soundstage width too. Your experiment with distancers might be interesting.
 
I wouldn't worry so much about the degradation of the back foam, in the worst case you can always remove it without having to also remove the pads completely (you only need to lift the pads in the corners). Anyway, should you still do it, it would be even better - we'd have another round of listening impressions to chew, wouldn't we?

 

[xiaobao0707]

Hi Carl,
 
This is a great thread and I'm gonna try my best to absorb the large information in it.
 
And I found that the link to the old thread does not work any longer, perhaps due to the upgrade of the site?
 
Quote:

By popular demand I'm starting a new thread for our discussions on all things Stax and electrostatic due to the unwieldily number of pages of that thread. This thread should be looked on as a direct continuation of the previous thread.

Keeping a broad scope with regards to subject matter has served us well up to now, so feel free to discuss anything related to Stax and electrostatic/electret headphones and their amplification in general.

Previous threads are here:
The Stax thread - Previous Stax thread
Long, meandering comparison of Stax 404 and Stax X-III, Episode I - Originally Lloyd's SR-X impressions thread, but basically got subverted into the Stax thread's predecessor

If you would like to nominate other threads to be added to this list by all means do so, but lets try to avoid listing every single thread that's ever mentioned Stax or electrostatics in the history of Head-fi.


That's the fine print out of the way, so everyone have fun.

 

[Don Quichotte]

I think Carl stopped posting around here for a while now...

 

[Audio-Omega]

Are Stax headphones better for orchestral music than dynamic or is it a matter of preference ?

 

[MrGreen]

Quote:

Are Stax headphones better for orchestral music than dynamic or is it a matter of preference ?

As close to objectively better you're ever going to get IMO.
 
The price of entry is pretty low if you go vintage lambda route. I got a setup (headphone + amp) that IMO beats every ortho/dynamic headphone setup I've ever heard. And I got it for less than 1k all up.
 
What state are you in?

 

[spacemanspliff]

A bit off topic but I am getting a bit frustrated. I am trying to find a home for a SRD-7 that Spritzer tweaked a bit. It does normal and pro bias.I have not had ANY interest. I am asking what I paid for it ($150) plus including a pair of anti-cable jumpers for free. Is there no market for them anymore? 

 

[EddieE]

I saw that - I'd want it if I had the money spare, sure others would too. First month after Christmas/New Year not a great time to be selling, just takes a bit of patience.