[DefQon]

This thread just got interesting.

 

[wink]

I think the basic problem with any amp is the difference between sound amplification/reproduction and sound coloration.
 
Some people like an amp that colors their sound in a way that appeals to them.
 
This is the antithesis of real high fidelity which demands that the signal/sound be reproduced as faithful as possible.
 
The problem here is the weakest link in the chain which is the headphones/transducers.
 
Amps that are designed to make up for the deficiency of the transducer are by their very nature deliberately colored, and hence not as Hi-Fi as they could be.
 
Until a perfect transducer is manufactured we will be stuck with the problem of coloration of sonic reproduction.

 

[DefQon]

Don't think a perfect transducer can be achieved. Yet again nothing there is no such thing as perfect in this world, just a hyperbole thrown around to describe how well or exceptional something is - only to be outclassed by something better short while to come.

 

[anetode]

Quote:

I think the basic problem with any amp is the difference between sound amplification/reproduction and sound coloration.
 
Some people like an amp that colors their sound in a way that appeals to them.
 
This is the antithesis of real high fidelity which demands that the signal/sound be reproduced as faithful as possible.
 
The problem here is the weakest link in the chain which is the headphones/transducers.
 
Amps that are designed to make up for the deficiency of the transducer are by their very nature deliberately colored, and hence not as Hi-Fi as they could be.
 
Until a perfect transducer is manufactured we will be stuck with the problem of coloration of sonic reproduction.

I'm having a problem parsing this logic. There are two types of amps, colored and not colored; people like the colored amps because they make up for flawed headphones; all headphones are flawed, therefore all amps are colored

 

[jcx]

more like "not even wrong" - buying into a false world view to start
 
its not clear that amps are often "synergistically colored" - flat frequency response seems to rule - those that aren't flat are more likely that way as a result of cost cutting, or oversight than a guru's intentional design choice
 
only in a few cases - mostly SE tube amps - do amps have inherently high enough output Z to modify frequency response with some transducers - not all loads have bumpy Z
 
ES headphones are pure C - no question of range of bumpy load Z vs frequency multi driver iem @ 20 Ohms nominal to a 300 Ohm with single 50% bass bump choice for the amp designer to "optimize" - either a ES amp can drive a ~100pF C or not (~ 70-200 pF range)

 

[arnaud]

Perfect and transducer is an oxymoron imo It's all a matter of preferences and where you accept to compromise.
 
I have much experience to gain in terms of differences between amps but my take so far has been to take a revealing transducer like the 009 (and HD800 before that) in priority and slightly (or not so slightly if you're focusing on the last 1-5% bit that make up the difference between high end rigs) alter its sound characteristic through a "colored" amp than the other way around. Motivation for me is that no matter the amp or source, you won't make up for what the transducer can't pass through (you can say the same thing about the source and the amp but by far the poorest link of all remains the transducer in terms of absolute objective performance).
 
I know this is supposed to be a different story for estat where the amp matters much more but I am yet to be enlightened . There truly are dramatic differences between transducers (e.g. between lambda and omega series, or between Omega 2 and SR009), this isn't the last 5% bit, it is fundamental difference that absolutely anyone can pick within seconds, even non-audiophiles. Differences between sources (and stat amps I have listened to so far) are nowhere near that dramatic, but that's probably because I have a skewed vision (being the acoustic engineer at heart and ever so clueless about electronics no matter how thrilled I would be to understand more who these circuits work). 
 
I guess everyone would be unbiased in an ideal world, but no matter how hard you try, everyone's got some reason to see things in their own quirky way. I absolutely respect Birgir's expertise and vast knowledge in stax gear. But, while I am quite resilient to audiofool voodoo, I still believe that synergy matters and no everything can be explained by objective performance. It seems any form of distortion, regardless of it being audible or not, is a complete no-no for Spritzer (and I understand given his heavy background in circuit design). Personally, I am less worried about measured distortion and other non-linearities in electronics than that in transducers, the latter being typically orders of magnitude larger than the former.
 
My 2cts. anyway

 

[wink]

Quote:anetode

all headphones are flawed, therefore all amps are colored

This is a non-sequitur.

 

[anetode]

Quote:

This is a non-sequitur.

Exactly. It is a restatement of "until a perfect transducer is manufactured we will be stuck with the problem of coloration of sonic reproduction."
 
This is an incorrect conclusion for three reasons,
 

• simple logical incongruity as outlined in my last post (a, not a, b; if a then b; if b then not a)
• we're not necessarily stuck with the problem of coloration since there are, by your admission, un-colored amps out there already
• we won't be un-stuck from the problem of coloration in the age of perfect transducers because some people will ultimately choose colored amps even when using perfect headphones

 

[wink]

Very astute.

 

[DefQon]

At the end of the day all that matters is what sounds good to the user. Until then, we may believe in any unicorn's and myths until subjectively and objectively proven. I'm sure all of us would love the perfect transducer, but it also got me thinking, the human hearing is not linear and varies between different age group, gender (or genetic's for that matter) amongst different individual's, I guess even with a perfect transducer being made it can still sound flawed to some (i.e. middle aged individual not being able to hear past a certain frequency) despite subjectively and objective proven by the masses that it is "perfect". 

 

[arnaud]

This is turning into a vocabulary and logic contest.

 

[DefQon]

*Pulls out the dictionary* 

 

[anetode]

Quote:

This is turning into a vocabulary and logic contest.

Didn't quite mean to jump on it like that. This is what happens when I post something elsewhere minutes after making a post on sound science.

 

[autoteleology]

This thread makes me feel so bad about my little SRD-X Pro and vintage Lambda sometimes. 

 

 

[DefQon]

Why's that?