The discovery thread!

[Ozboyblu]

That and N*SYNC have been in my head all weekend.

Also, mail call!

 

[BS5711]

Ha. Well said.

Whenever the conversation starts going this far, I invariably land on the same point: as music lovers and audiophiles, we’re all looking to be “intoxicated” in one way or another. Whatever roads you take to get there (good music, a cozy chair, a soft incandescent light bulb, a literal intoxicant, a good set of measurements, salt rocks, beads, cable lifters, fairy dust, whatever) are entirely your own business. We each hear what we hear. We all have our own weird ways. Human brains are cool that way.

Absolutely true and perfectly fair until psychology is mixed up with technical performance and the gear is therefore given more weight than is justified and that is then passed on to others as fact when it (in some cases arguably) isn't at all.

 

[Hypops]

Where's the next stop? I'm getting off this train.

Whoa. A mixed metaphor (rocket boats and trains) that also mixes media (gif and text). There should be a name for that kind of multi-dimensional dexterity!

 

[Singaravelan]

Calling all metalheads!! Well calling anyone who has a metal playlist!! What IEMs do you turn to when listening to metal or hard rock? What's your rusty trusty for aggressive loud music? Complex or simple? For me, lately, that list has shifted some. Never had more IEMs drop in my lap that excel in metal, whereas in the past, it was rarer than you might expect. Here's mine, though tbh, I haven't pulled out the CCA Trio for awhile. I've spent more time with my golden trio, and when I specifically listen to metal and it's not the H60, it's been the HZSound HeartMirror ZERO or the KZ Vader HR. But this is how it appears OVERALL, and not by recent usage frequency.

1. CCA Trio/KZ Vader HR
2. HZSound HeartMirror Zero
3. ISN H60 (this is a cheat, because it's an all-arounder KING, so of course, it's boss for metal)
4. LZ A4 Pro
5. Tanchjim ZERO/ISN Neo1

Now for a great metal album that's a bit under the radar....Wormwitch - Heaven That Dwells Within. They have a new self titled album out btw.

1) Miroak2 for Doom metal and such

2) Kira2 for prog metal and the ilk

3) Sivga Nightingale for thrash and harsh

Occasionally, CCA Trio and Tanchjim Zero.

 

[FreeWheelinAudioLuv2]

Tbh, who cares if "what people “hear” isn’t always real."

What's the point of personal audio? "Flawless signal reproduction and transmission" EH! Wrong.

It's the image that ultimately pops up in the brain of the listeners, ala "what people hear."

If putting crystal on the shells of IEMs can create psychological effect to make listeners hears nicer music, then by all means, conduct more research to see how one can control and maximise that psychological effect.

But no, that's too slippery, too hard. So let's put down everything we cannot measure to have a false sense of certainty.

(Yes, I don't put much faith in cable and other yadda yadda of audiophiles, but the attitude "what people “hear” isn’t always real." pisses me off)

 

[baskingshark]

On the 61t Butterfly:

I’ve been tip rolling with them. They are VERY tip dependent. I think this has something to do with the relatively large shells and actually large stems. It’s also a function of the lack of an ear-facing vent in the shells. They create suction/pressure with the wrong tips and that kills the bass.

So, I started with the stock tips but they’re all too small. So I switched to Divinus Wides and they instantly suctioned to my ear and sounded alternately too bassy and lacking all bass.

Next I tried the DUNU S&S tips. These are too soft and pliable for the big nozzles. They deform instead of sealing. I tried two sizes, no go.

Next I installed the Penon Liqueur tips in orange. These are a nice match. They breathe a little (in my ears) so they don’t have pressure issues. They deliver a consistent sound.

Finally I tried the Divinus standard bore velvets and these, while capable of causing suction/pressure, are less prone to it than the shallow wide bore variety. They sound very good. Probably a little better than the Liqueur tips. But they do make me fuss with them some if pressure or suction builds up. When they’re dialed in they really enhance the smooth 61t bass.

Just FYI in case anyone is struggling with them out of the box. Tip selection is critical with this set, for me at least.

Yep tips can make or break an IEM. Bad seal = loss of bass = skewed sound signature.

Eartips also affect comfort, isolation and fit in addition to sound.


For that matter, since there is such a hot debate on cables, why are eartips not the first port of call after upgrading the transducer?

Eartips are generally cheaper than kilobuck cables, and eartips do show objective changes on measurements:

I respect cable believers and cable detractors. Personally, I have bought cables up to $500 and don't hear much differences WHEN VOLUME MATCHED ON THE SAME RIG compared to a non-crappy $20 cable, with perhaps the exception being high impedance cables on very low impedance IEMs like the fussy Campfire Andromeda.

But personally, I would swap eartips as my first area in the audio chain, after upgrading the transducer. I respect the cable enthusiasts though, but sometimes reading that a 1/5 IEM becomes a 5/5 IEM after being paired with a $1000 cable, that is kind of a red flag ain't it?

So if I take part of your cons list and add it to the cons list of some other fool and swirl it all about, I get ____________

Cons: Basic accessories and cable
Bass lacks texture and impact . . .
+
Cons: Meh accessories for a MidFI IEM
Fussy with source pairing due to low impedance
Average technicalities (other than imaging)
Not for trebleheads or resolution freaks . . .


@baskingshark

Yeah, I think the Ziigaat Arete will make a good gaming IEM (as per its intended design) due to the good imaging and sub-bass for explosions/footsteps?

But since we are here on this forum discussing about music, the Arete is quite meh for this purpose IMHO: BA timbre, bang average technically (other than imaging), incoherency (DD bass is slower than the faster BAs handling the mids/treble). Disappointing accessories too for the coin.

The Delci with a smidge less sub-bass could be budget nirvana for me.

Other than EQ, you can try a wide-bore type eartip to open up the treble and tame a bit of the bass - eg Tenmark Whirwinds, Clarions etc.

The new Fan 3 is turning out to be quite the package. Now with the option of tuning off (or on) the Bone Conduction switch, it will then give a different sound and offer two tuning options. Penon have gone and made the actual fitment a breeze, changing the shape from the Fan 2 deep deep fitting style. And finally they doubled up the regular included OS133 to make the Penon SPACE be the included cable. The SPACE is one heck of a cable. Going and improving literally the immersion factor by offering a bigger window to view your music. The regular OS133 was great in that it was slightly warm but really very very transparent in holding the reality of your music playback, not really making the results too warm or too bright but being a transfer of cable tone neutrality. All Penon has done is 2X up the material to give the Fan 3 the largest stage possible! I especially like the SPACE with the Penon Serial as it just makes playback big, and clear!

One of the OG Fan 2's controversial aspects was the super long nozzle that may translate to bad fit.

Hope it area is fixed on this Fan 3.

yes but if 3/4 switches do the same thing [boost bass 1db like on many of the KZ sets,] there's not really that many permutations.

Yep many tuning switches - and nozzle for that matter - are shoehorned in for the illusion of choice, and are quite gimmicky. Look at the CVJ TXS, massive gimmick, 3 tuning switch permutations sound the same. The last one has just 1 - 2 dB difference in the treble LOLOL.

 

[o0genesis0o]

BA timbre, bang average technically (other than imaging), incoherency (DD bass is slower than the faster BAs handling the mids/treble).

One day when I visit Singapore, you need to sit me down and explain to me these Ba timbre and incoherency, cause I didn’t hear any no matter how much I twisted my ears with the arete and my classical library

 

[Ozboyblu]

Yep many tuning switches - and nozzle for that matter - are shoehorned in for the illusion of choice, and are quite gimmicky. Look at the CVJ TXS, massive gimmick, 3 tuning switch permutations sound the same. The last one has just 1 - 2 dB difference in the treble LOLOL.

Wow that’s interesting . Nice illusion then.

 

[baskingshark]

One day when I visit Singapore, you need to sit me down and explain to me these Ba timbre and incoherency, cause I didn’t hear any no matter how much I twisted my ears with the arete and my classical library

Coherency issues = DD bass is slower/bleeds more than the faster snappier BAs handling the treble for example. So the bass frequencies are a step behind in complex instrumentation with competing riffs. May not be apparent in slower genres with lesser instruments.

BA timbre in this IEM = hollowness to brass and woodwind instruments.


I'm just looking at the other reviews for the Arete on headfi - https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/ziigaat-x-fresh-reviews-arete.27294/reviews - and more than 50% report the BA timbre issue.

 

[Ineras]

Perfect synergy. Cable from KZ EDC pro.

 

[FastGecko5]

Perfect synergy. Cable from KZ EDC pro.

Can we see some measurements for this and a better cable hahaha

 

[thaslaya]

I'm kinda surprised how dull that Celest dongle looks given how insanely designed their IEMs typically are.

Right? Their iems are almost always gorgeous so the dongle should match.

Sorry for disappearing; I’ve been quite busy lately, but rest assured, I still watched your every move on this thread! (Not a creepy way to phrase it at all).

For starters, I missed the “Best Discovery of 2024 Yet” poll posted by Leonarfd something like 6000 pages ago. In solar days, I think it should be somerhing like 3 and a half days.

Discaimer: the positions were all determined based mainly on personal enjoyment.

In first place, for the best discovery of 2024… *drum roll* the Letshuoer S08. The most enjoyable set I’ve heard in a long time, probably ever. With its thick note weight, the most enveloping and creamy sound you can imagine, the best timbre offered by a planar set yet, a superlative bass that kicks like a mule, and its moderate and non fatiguing treble extension, suitable for people who don’t want to lose their hearing by the age of 30. Joking aside, this set really has grown on me. Since it arrived, many other IEMs I was using on a daily basis ended up collecting (figurative) dust in my box. The S08 has soon become my go-to for enjoying music. And is there a better compliment to give to an IEM other than that? (Purchased for €95 at launch in bundle with a really good extra cable).

In second place… the newly arrived Letshuoer Cadenza 4. To put it in perspective, it’s the antithesis of the Letshuoer S08. Not a “fun” set by any metric; on the contrary, it offers an incredibly flat, natural, and balanced tuning in which no frequency is recessed or emphasized compared to another. The result, as you can imagine, is an extremely balanced experience, with a natural organic bass with good punch and very natural decay, incredibly detailed mids, with beautifully rendered vocals that take center stage, and a well-extended treble that is bright and airy without ever becoming harsh, let alone sibilant. “Letshuoer Equilibrium” could’ve been the perfect name for this exceptional set. The real strength of the Cadenza 4, other than having the most comfortable fit and the best passive isolation on the market and the above-mentioned extremely good technicalities, is that despite being very monitor-like in its tuning, it will never sound sterile or dry. It’s more the other way around, not lifeless or sharp-edged, but musical and delicate, all while boasting exceptional resolution, pin-perfect imaging, and retaining all the macro and micro details you could ever need in your lifetime. (Purchased for €150 instead of €250).

In third place, it’s the Raptgo Bridge. A very strange creature, quirky in some ways, but this quirkiness is of the good kind, and I really do believe it contributes to making the Bridge the unique and great IEM that it is. Compared to the other two entries, the timbre is a little off and mids are slightly thin. And with that, its flaws end, and its virtues begin. Fast transients, extremely clean sounding, fast and precise bass, unbelievably detailed mids, and the best treble out of the three IEMs, extremely well-extended but not sibilant, and with some special sauce to it. I can’t quite grasp it; it sounds strange, but it’s strange in an amiable way. (Purchased for €30 instead of €180)

I love that all 3 are so different and distinct.

I absolutely agree. My entire point is that cables are one of those things that are so rooted in subjectivism that we need to be careful about working in absolutes when it comes to them. The entire H60 cable debate is a perfect example of this. Certain users are swearing by the OCC849, which let's be real, isn't really that cheap. But case in point, our beloved FreeWheelinAudLuv2 pointed out that his H60 sounds great with a cable that isn't the OCC849.

Maybe my heated writing wasnt very clear, but what I'm trying to say is maybe instead of saying "the stock H60 cable is bad, make sure you also purchase the OCC849", maybe we should be saying "the stock H60 cable is bad, if you aren't impressed with it maybe try other cables, I like OCC849 personally". That phrasing leaves it open to the end user to decide whether the pricey upgrade cable has value for them or not, and can maybe help back off the inherent FOMO of this hobby.

I totally don't mind when people share their impressions on cables or whatever. But I do take issue with speaking in absolutes. It always goes a long way to add "in my opinion ", "to me", or "to my ears" to statements so they don't come across as truths or facts.

Anyone using DUNU Lyre Mini? How do they perform, and what kind of sound reproduction? I heard they create a bit of microphonics!

I'm interested in buy one. Any first-hand experience will be appreciated.

I think @Jaytiss has one he can share his impressions?

Perfect synergy. Cable from KZ EDC pro.

Lol! This is basically sacrilegious. No iem deserves that cable. Not even the KZ they came with.

 

[FreeWheelinAudioLuv2]

Random silliness.

Yes, it is an imaginary world of pretend soundscapes, fanning the imagination and the soul into the night. What is real and what is not is only there for the perceiver of such possible truths............ever so swayed by (at times) the un-quantifiable.

You can never leave. Never! That is what starters say, look at my post count.


There may be some truth in concept there?

There may be some truth in concept there?

I'm waiting for the next wave of fairy dust. I'm old, I even remember when they said tubes were the only thing that was real, that sold state was fake music.

Something I can quantify....The trio of ISN H60, Dita Project M, and Tri i3 III ARE AURAL SEX! AURAL SEX for this music HO. Quantified!

 

[FreeWheelinAudioLuv2]

A couple things I note based solely on the FR graph:
1) this is definitely not a Simgot or Harman graph. This is squarely in the new 5128 meta.
2) no tucked bass, but doesn’t glide very far. It graphs very similarly to the DaVinci, so this might be the main comparison.
3) the big question I have is: is it too safe?

DaVinci comparison:

More mid bass on the Davinci, which was a minor complaint on the DaVinci, but it has more upper mids and treble extension, which was the other complaint about the DaVinci, which was it was safe and lacked some upper treble extension, so though it appears they are similar, the Estrella seems to have "improved" on the areas the DaVinci was complained on?

 

[Ineras]

Lol! This is basically sacrilegious. No iem deserves that cable. Not even the KZ they came with.

I just had to.
Before this, I can't remember the last time I broke open one of those KZ cable plastic bags.