Testing audiophile claims and myths
May 9, 2015 at 5:19 AM Post #5,476 of 17,336
A less powerful amp is only worse at a given volume/loudness if the amp clips. Cheaper amps could clip sooner than more expensive ones though you really have to turn up the volume.
See beginning of this thread: A $25 Behringer amp for DJs could not be distinguished from a $$$ audiophile amp DBT'ed. I believe that.
 
May 9, 2015 at 5:37 AM Post #5,477 of 17,336
   I'm one of those guys who would be real unhappy if my favorite records were to sound like a live performance. I always read that stuff, that people want the real sound like it was at the concert. well it's easy, invite 20dudes in your house, use bad speakers and push the volume too loud. that should be a good start in trying to recreate the "live" experience ^_^.
to make it simple, I go to a concert because some people convinced me the sound wouldn't suck and I wouldn't need ear plugs. usually they lied and I spend the all time with my custom earplugs that supposedly keep on ok-ish FR balance. but of course the sound sucks that way.
on the other hand I listen to music at home to relax. and I'm glad the sound level of different instruments are matched so that I can hear everything even quietly. 
 
and for guitars, I also find that records are more enjoyable because you get all the details of a mic close by, hear the fingers moving on the string etc. I wouldn't say it's better, but i prefer it that way.
 
 
 
 
about the 10W 100W amps, I wonder how often it's true that a more powerful amp used at lower level is better? you read it everywhere and people always want more power, but the same people usually don't understand electricity at all, and just imagine that the sound at same loudness into the same load will somehow use more power that will sound obviously different... so I really don't know.
also I have that idea that powerful stuff tend to have more noise so I try to make sure I have enough headroom, but would go for too much as an idea of better fidelity(of course that could just be another urban legend and I somehow believed that one ^_^).

OK - to clarify once and for all - by live concert sound I personally mean, in 98.7654321 %, an acoustic music concert, where anything electrical is for lighting/heating only - and I prefer to exclude even that completely ( 50/60 Hz and its harmonics off lamps, sub bass drone of clima, etc ).
 
I agree amplified live concerts can sound horrible - yet do check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_%28band%29 - in my opininon, the invisible guy responsible for the stage sound is their - at very least - equally important member as players on the stage. Not "quite" of "acoustic quality" - but close, and the effects that are impossible in acoustic only music can sound breathtakingly good.
 
Regarding 10 W 100W amps - a 100 W amp can trounce the 10 W amp when playing say at 8 W or below only if and when extraordinay attention and detail went into its design. A cheapo 10 W class AB amp vs 100 W pure class A amp comes to mind - but the price difference is equally staggering. 
 
It is not necesary true that more powerful amps means more noise. Technics proved it with their SE-9060 amp from the Professional series - S/N of 125 dB - you can plug the IEMs into SPEAKER outputs ( if you have the guts and are careful enough with the volume...) - and it would still not hiss...
 
May 9, 2015 at 5:47 AM Post #5,478 of 17,336
  It depends.
 
It is MUCH easier to design low distortion amplifiers with lower power than big amps. The border is usually around 70 - to max 100 W. Above that, the amps are usually poorer in SQ when called upon to work with say 10 W maximum level. There is a myriad of technical reasons for that - and amps of more than 100 W of power with really good SQ are rare and VERY expensive.
 
I agree it is a good idea to have reasonable headroom - to stay well clear of the possibility of clipping; that sounds MUCH worse than >100 W amp playing at 10 W power level.


100 W as example only. Practically I suppose, 20 ... 30 W.
 
From my experience electrical power is not strong influence in perceiving of loudness.
 
It suitable to theory. 2 times more power its 3 dB only.
 
May 9, 2015 at 5:50 AM Post #5,479 of 17,336
 
100 W as example only. Practically I suppose, 20 ... 30 W.
 
From my experience electrical power is not strong influence in perceiving of loudness.
 
It suitable to theory. 2 times more power its 3 dB only.

Very useful is representing the power of amplifiers as dBW - it gives the true perspective
 
http://www.rapidtables.com/electric/dBW.htm
 
May 9, 2015 at 6:23 AM Post #5,481 of 17,336
  Hey, analogsurviver, have you tried a mid/side recording configuration? if so tell me about the results...

No - because before I decided to go into recording, have been listening to practically any recording (technique) available - and they got written off - one by one. M/S included.
 
I might reconsider - there will always a situation creep up that may favor M/S under the given circumstances.
 
May 9, 2015 at 7:20 AM Post #5,482 of 17,336
 
  Hey, analogsurviver, have you tried a mid/side recording configuration? if so tell me about the results...

No - because before I decided to go into recording, have been listening to practically any recording (technique) available - and they got written off - one by one. M/S included.
 
I might reconsider - there will always a situation creep up that may favor M/S under the given circumstances.


so you don't use any technique? just place 2 microphones in whatever place? wherever you fell like? and see what happens?
 
May 9, 2015 at 7:32 AM Post #5,483 of 17,336
 
so you don't use any technique? just place 2 microphones in whatever place? wherever you fell like? and see what happens?

Of course not. 
 
I use binaural, OSS - or more commonly known as Jecklin Disk - and that "half (il)legimate person son" between the two...
rolleyes.gif
 
 
May 9, 2015 at 9:42 AM Post #5,484 of 17,336
Now - as if you have never heard a totally brand new never used cable that was rough in the beginning ....


No. I've never heard a cable sound "rough" to begin with. And I was being literal when I said what you heard was due to the marketing prose--an expectation bias.

.These oil filled cables went to great lengths by design to prevent this as much as possible - and they do not require electrical DC bias to achieve this "pre-polarization" of the dialectric and thus do not require the burn in. The insulation on the silver plated wire is porous - meaning it is there only to physically prevent short circuiting, while allowing oil dialectric good properties to be in direct contact with the conductor. .


I'm sure the manufacturer is laughing it up that you and others believe that these oil-based cables offer any benefit. It's not figuratively a snake oil product. These cables actually have oil in them. Someone must have had a lot of fun figuring out that new angle to part audiophools from their money with that design characteristic. It's a great joke. Next we'll probably see some other crazy audiophool product with oil in it. (lol)
 
May 9, 2015 at 10:00 AM Post #5,485 of 17,336
No. I've never heard a cable sound "rough" to begin with. And I was being literal when I said what you heard was due to the marketing prose--an expectation bias.
I'm sure the manufacturer is laughing it up that you and others believe that these oil-based cables offer any benefit. It's not figuratively a snake oil product. These cables actually have oil in them. Someone must have had a lot of fun figuring out that new angle to part audiophools from their money with that design characteristic. It's a great joke. Next we'll probably see some other crazy audiophool product with oil in it. (lol)

Oil as dialectric has been used in particularly high voltage application ( cables, transformers ) for ages. It is not a gimmick.  But it is true this is its first use for the so called audiophools - in this cable.
 
I did say you can ABX - cables . An ABX box - as that from Van Alstine - one well rested subject for DBT and one merciless jury. 
 
If it was not for the money ( I need some things, ABXed or not, million times more urgent than an ABX box ) - I would have bought that ABX box - on spot. Still thinking about it...
 
May 9, 2015 at 10:25 AM Post #5,486 of 17,336
That's it, oil filled high voltage headphone cables for people that feel the need to waste money. "High voltage application," another distraction.
 
May 9, 2015 at 10:34 AM Post #5,487 of 17,336
 
<snip>  
In my experiement with an acoustic guitar, i had tried listening to that guitar from about 50 meter away, in free air, and from a room inside a building, at 50 meters height, and 50 meters distance from the guitar being played.
 
The sq was still more alive than any recording i have on hand, with someone covering an acustic song, with the cheapest guitar.
 
<snip>

 
I know exactly what you mean.  I think what you were hearing was the absence of sound, as opposed to what is captured in a studio.  So to reproduce the open air sound, you'd have to thin out a studio recording by removing the frequencies that are attenuated in open air.  If you wanted to simulate distance, you'd have to remove cues picked up by close miking.
 
EDIT: which is exactly what bigshot said
 
  OK - to clarify once and for all - by live concert sound I personally mean, in 98.7654321 %, an acoustic music concert, where anything electrical is for lighting/heating only - and I prefer to exclude even that completely ( 50/60 Hz and its harmonics off lamps, sub bass drone of clima, etc ).
 
<snip>

 
LOL, 98.7654321 %.....
atsmile.gif
 
 
May 9, 2015 at 10:36 AM Post #5,488 of 17,336
That's it, oil filled high voltage headphone cables for people that feel the need to waste money. "High voltage application," another distraction.


Or how about your turntable mechanical parts have to be lubricated with a specific audiophile grade oil? There are already plenty of people being taken by claims regarding expensive lubricants with tools and firearms. I think we should buy some generic lubricant, repackage it in a pretty bottle with the name "audio grade" and on it, mark up the price at least 500%, and tons of fools would buy it. The guy that run's multitool.org did that just for fun for multitool enthusiasts : Uncle Def's Premium Tool Oil: http://forum.multitool.org/index.php?topic=51383.0.

Here is the best part in his description of the product

For only two dollars more, that's right, a total of $9.95* I will automatically upgrade your order to Uncle Def's Ultra Premium Tool Oil in the Red Cap! The Red Cap means that Uncle Def's Ultra Premium Tool oil is far more advanced than that black cap, which is why the Red Cap is red, while the Black Cap is merely black. So, if the Black Cap is the same quality of Multitool Oil you are used to then just imagine the secrets Red Cap will open up for you!


Be easy enough to convince audiophools that a different labeled bottle was a better grade just because it's a different labeled bottle and the manufacturer says so :)
 
May 9, 2015 at 10:44 AM Post #5,489 of 17,336
Don't forget, we don't need just extended response, that extended response also needs to be very linear

 
And for recording, the microphone should ideally have low noise as well, which is not as important for the originally intended application of frequency response measurements. A small capsule generally has a more extended frequency response, but worse SNR.

 
May 9, 2015 at 10:48 AM Post #5,490 of 17,336
Or how about your turntable mechanical parts have to be lubricated with a specific audiophile grade oil? There are already plenty of people being taken by claims regarding expensive lubricants with tools and firearms. I think we should buy some generic lubricant, repackage it in a pretty bottle with the name "audio grade" and on it, mark up the price at least 500%, and tons of fools would buy it. The guy that run's multitool.org did that just for fun for multitool enthusiasts : Uncle Def's Premium Tool Oil: http://forum.multitool.org/index.php?topic=51383.0.

Here is the best part in his description of the product
Be easy enough to convince audiophools that a different labeled bottle was a better grade just because it's a different labeled bottle and the manufacturer says so
smily_headphones1.gif

The secret ingredient is White Bat Guano. One has to put something in there besides a picture of Ace Ventura on the label.
 

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