[Steve Eddy]

Butch KeithEddy!

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[bigshot]

Originally Posted by Dobrescu George /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
I was listening to a CD interpretation through my headphones, and other headphones, various amps and DACs, yet nothing was reproducing the actual live simple guitar song...
simply, i want to know sound science's opinion on why is that.

 
Miking and or mixing/mastering

 

[Tropic]

The only cables that I've seen to have difference in sound and on paper is the Linum BaX, which edit / add impedance to the source. I still think cables are a cosmetic thing though.

 

[Yuri Korzunov]

  A "true" 10W amp (one that is actually capable of 10W continuous at its rated distortion level) should happily play at 10W all day long with no issue at all. There should be no audible difference between a 10W amp and a 100W amp playing the same material, unless the peak required power exceeds 10W.

You are right. However if you playback 10W at 100W amp, you have chance get less distortions

 

[headwhacker]

The only cables that I've seen to have difference in sound and on paper is the Linum BaX, which edit / add impedance to the source. I still think cables are a cosmetic thing though.

Adding resistance in the cable will most like just attenuate the signal. Just like how JH Audio control the bass quantity on their siren series iems.

 

[analogsurviver]

Please see the answer given regarding the microphones in the other thread.
 
The distortion of the microphones can be low - VERY low. The best testimony to that were the measurements of the Beveridge 2SW speaker made in the late 70s/early 80s ( in Instituto Alta Fedelta  Roma, Italy ? someplace in Germany? ) and published in German audio press (Stereoplay ? ) . I have it somewhere and if and when it will turn up, will upload it. Anechoic chamber measurements of the THD ran below 0.03% for the 2nd harmonic and below 0.01 % for the third harmonic - from about 100-200 Hz to well above 10 kHz - measurement of the SPEAKER in an anechoic chamber with a microphone, not its driving amplifier !
 
Now we can theoreticise ad nuseaum whether the distortions of both speaker and microphone are both so low as to accurately represent the true value, whether they mutually cancelled each other out, etc - I merely stated a case that in my memory has no peer. Those distortion levels are good in an electronic component - not in tranducer(s) ... It is hard for anybody to even approach these distortion levels using other transducers - but the inherent microphone distortion might be lower still.
 
I have heard the big Bev speaker in 1979, Milano, Italy - and am haunted by its sound ( or better said, the lack of it ) ever since .

 

[Dobrescu George]

   
Miking and or mixing/mastering

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...
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How much DSP processing is necessary, i wonder to make everything sound just like before recording music?..
 
I really mean this, analyzing the song, creating an ideea of what is going on, then changing it...
 
In my experiement with an acoustic guitar, i had tried listening to that guitar from about 50 meter away, in free air, and from a room inside a building, at 50 meters height, and 50 meters distance from the guitar being played.
 
The sq was still more alive than any recording i have on hand, with someone covering an acustic song, with the cheapest guitar.
 
I have been thinking, acoustic guitars produce sounds from 80hz all the way to 10-14 khz ranges. If nail picked the strings. Recorded guitars... are.. lifeless in comparation..
 
I know that there are reasons like mastering, recording, room acustics, and so on, but i was thinking that besides re-creation of transients, which is possible mathematically, what kind of DSP should the simplest music undergo to sound like before it was recorded?

 

[MacacoDoSom]

 

   
Miking and or mixing/mastering

...
...
...
 
How much DSP processing is necessary, i wonder to make everything sound just like before recording music?..
 
I really mean this, analyzing the song, creating an ideea of what is going on, then changing it...
 
In my experiement with an acoustic guitar, i had tried listening to that guitar from about 200 meter away, in free air, and from a room inside a building, at 50 meters height, and 150 meters distance from the guitar being played.
 
The sq was still more alive than any recording i have on hand, with someone covering an acustic song, with the cheapest guitar.
 
I have been thinking, acoustic guitars produce sounds from 80hz all the way to 10-14 khz ranges. If nail picked the strings. Recorded guitars... are.. lifeless in comparation..
 
I know that there are reasons like mastering, recording, room acustics, and so on, but i was thinking that besides re-creation of transients, which is possible mathematically, what kind of DSP should the simplest music undergo to sound like before it was recorded?

 acoustic guitar 200 meters away? and you hear the fingernails?
 
I've been listening for acoustic guitars for about 50 years now... and in most circumstances the recordings always sound better... at some meters away (depending on the room acoustics) it sounds dull... by free air you mean open air? out in the open? in a sunny day with no wind? and you hear what?

 

[Dobrescu George]

 
 acoustic guitar 200 meters away? and you hear the fingernails?
 
I've been listening for acoustic guitars for about 50 years now... and in most circumstances the recordings always sound better... at some meters away (depending on the room acoustics) it sounds dull... by free air you mean open air? out in the open? in a sunny day with no wind? and you hear what?

no wind, between buildings...
 
I do not hear fingernails, but the entire sound has another... vibration to it... i cannot put it in words.
 
I do not sing guitar nor other instruments, but i know people who do, and i asked them to do some experiemnts with me.
 
I might be exaggerating the distances.. the most extreme extent was me being in a 4th floor in a room of a building and the guitar playing was outside, at evening, at some distance, not that much of a distance...

 

[analogsurviver]

 
You are right. However if you playback 10W at 100W amp, you have chance get less distortions

It depends.
 
It is MUCH easier to design low distortion amplifiers with lower power than big amps. The border is usually around 70 - to max 100 W. Above that, the amps are usually poorer in SQ when called upon to work with say 10 W maximum level. There is a myriad of technical reasons for that - and amps of more than 100 W of power with really good SQ are rare and VERY expensive.
 
I agree it is a good idea to have reasonable headroom - to stay well clear of the possibility of clipping; that sounds MUCH worse than >100 W amp playing at 10 W power level.

 

[MacacoDoSom]

 

 
 acoustic guitar 200 meters away? and you hear the fingernails?
 
I've been listening for acoustic guitars for about 50 years now... and in most circumstances the recordings always sound better... at some meters away (depending on the room acoustics) it sounds dull... by free air you mean open air? out in the open? in a sunny day with no wind? and you hear what?

no wind, between buildings...
 
I do not hear fingernails, but the entire sound has another... vibration to it... i cannot put it in words.
 
I do not sing guitar nor other instruments, but i know people who do, and i asked them to do some experiemnts with me.
 
I might be exaggerating the distances.. the most extreme extent was me being in a 4th floor in a room of a building and the guitar playing was outside, at evening, at some distance, not that much of a distance...

and what is your problem with the recordings? maybe you like it more in the open...  personally I like it more recorded... have you tried to put your ear on to different parts of a guitar? you will get other perspectives of its sound,,, what is the sound you want to ear? the acoustic of the room? the sound produced inside the guitar by its body? or the sound produced by the strings?
10000 guitars 10000^100 different sounds...

 

[analogsurviver]

  no wind, between buildings...
 
I do not hear fingernails, but the entire sound has another... vibration to it... i cannot put it in words.
 
I do not sing guitar nor other instruments, but i know people who do, and i asked them to do some experiemnts with me.
 
I might be exaggerating the distances.. the most extreme extent was me being in a 4th floor in a room of a building and the guitar playing was outside, at evening, at some distance, not that much of a distance...

You can forget recording and reproducing the guitar as heard from the 4th floor and guitar playing outside - technical means are not at the level required and it is likely they never will be. Microphone with zero self noise does not exist - yet (?).

 

[castleofargh]

 I'm one of those guys who would be real unhappy if my favorite records were to sound like a live performance. I always read that stuff, that people want the real sound like it was at the concert. well it's easy, invite 20dudes in your house, use bad speakers and push the volume too loud. that should be a good start in trying to recreate the "live" experience ^_^.
to make it simple, I go to a concert because some people convinced me the sound wouldn't suck and I wouldn't need ear plugs. usually they lied and I spend the all time with my custom earplugs that supposedly keep on ok-ish FR balance. but of course the sound sucks that way.
on the other hand I listen to music at home to relax. and I'm glad the sound level of different instruments are matched so that I can hear everything even quietly. 
 
and for guitars, I also find that records are more enjoyable because you get all the details of a mic close by, hear the fingers moving on the string etc. I wouldn't say it's better, but i prefer it that way.
 
 
 
 
about the 10W 100W amps, I wonder how often it's true that a more powerful amp used at lower level is better? you read it everywhere and people always want more power, but the same people usually don't understand electricity at all, and just imagine that the sound at same loudness into the same load will somehow use more power that will sound obviously different... so I really don't know.
also I have that idea that powerful stuff tend to have more noise so I try to make sure I have enough headroom, but would go for too much as an idea of better fidelity(of course that could just be another urban legend and I somehow believed that one ^_^).

 

[Dobrescu George]

I have this problem,..
 
let's take rodrigo y gabriela recordings, a song that is pure acoustic guitar.
 
then you make a cover with a live acoustic guitar, without any electronic part, just wood and strings and fingers.
 
the one that is sang live by someone sounds much more alive, has more spark to it, is way different. it has so many more nuances.
 
I am between those who hates concerts because they are loud, and sometimes the quality is way less than the recorded music.

 

[analogsurviver]

 
and what is your problem with the recordings? maybe you like it more in the open...  personally I like it more recorded... have you tried to put your ear on to different parts of a guitar? you will get other perspectives of its sound,,, what is the sound you want to ear? the acoustic of the room? the sound produced inside the guitar by its body? or the sound produced by the strings?
10000 guitars 10000^100 different sounds...

I can sympathize with you both - with the desire to hear the guitar as heard live - and more up close (recording) - which allows the use of the microphones without excessive noise and more intimate presentation of the guitar than a listener would normally experience during a guitar recital.
 
In response to the above problem, I designed a special microphone that can, to a good extent, combine the two above conflicting requirements.  And it was not funny when I later discovered it has been invented a few years before - by Jurg Jecklin. Except he arrived at it after XY ( two digits, first most definitely NOT 1 ) years working in recording, it took me 4 years after deciding to go into free lance recording.
 
I agree with 10000 guitars to the power of 100 different sounds statement.
 
Just check this great album : http://www.discogs.com/David-Bromberg-David-Bromberg/release/2043643
and "more images" - to see the choice of the guitars at David's disposal at the time. 
 
And listen to this original CBS LP  ( make sure it is not some later re-release that has been digitally remastered ) on a good turntable - and anything digital. In one of the pieces, he accompanies himself by - "seating" on the chair, VERY subtly and VERY well "seated" - which almost completely disappears in digital version(s) - ruining the intended effect completely.