Testing audiophile claims and myths
Sep 2, 2019 at 8:15 PM Post #13,501 of 17,336
In reference to??

People who spin in circles thinking and saying the same things over and over again, even though it 's clear that the repetition makes other people around them frustrated. I don't think it's deliberate. I don't even think it's intended as communication. Most people in conversations say things because they want to share the information with other people. They have an interest in what the other person thinks about what they say, and they want to hear ideas other people have to offer them. But this kind of person seems to express their thoughts for no one's benefit but their own. It's as if the act of repeating the same things over and over is self validating. If they do reply to someone else, there's a weird disconnect between the idea they are replying to and the routine they launch into. You could ask, "Do you like lemons?" and it would come right back around to the same repeating concepts. The impetus for the routine doesn't matter. I always try to understand and engage with people when I'm chatting with them, but that isn't possible with a person like this. All I can do is continue on with the actual topic at hand or change the subject entirely. Engaging doesn't help. It only feeds it. You have to talk past them to people who do give and take in a conversation. It's sad. This sort of thing isn't all that common in internet chat forums, but internet chat forums tend to attract this sort of person. I don't think they can help it.
 
Sep 2, 2019 at 9:12 PM Post #13,502 of 17,336
People who spin in circles thinking and saying the same things over and over again, even though it 's clear that the repetition makes other people around them frustrated. I don't think it's deliberate. I don't even think it's intended as communication. Most people in conversations say things because they want to share the information with other people. They have an interest in what the other person thinks about what they say, and they want to hear ideas other people have to offer them. But this kind of person seems to express their thoughts for no one's benefit but their own. It's as if the act of repeating the same things over and over is self validating. If they do reply to someone else, there's a weird disconnect between the idea they are replying to and the routine they launch into. You could ask, "Do you like lemons?" and it would come right back around to the same repeating concepts. The impetus for the routine doesn't matter. I always try to understand and engage with people when I'm chatting with them, but that isn't possible with a person like this. All I can do is continue on with the actual topic at hand or change the subject entirely. Engaging doesn't help. It only feeds it. You have to talk past them to people who do give and take in a conversation. It's sad. This sort of thing isn't all that common in internet chat forums, but internet chat forums tend to attract this sort of person. I don't think they can help it.


I think the vast majority of the general public think that CD or digital itself imply something different in the sound of the same thing they owned on vinyl or cassette. The marketing departments of consumer products thirty years ago didn't help matters by slapping the phrases "Digital Ready" or just "Digital" on everything from headphones and speakers to speaker wire and even cheap bookshelf systems that were starting to incorporate CD players.

People need to understand that 'digital' is just the next container for the storage of music, movies, and even printed word.
 
Sep 3, 2019 at 12:14 AM Post #13,503 of 17,336
I don't think this has anything to do with audio. I guess you didn't hear what I said.
 
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Sep 3, 2019 at 3:50 AM Post #13,504 of 17,336
[1] Sometimes I can't figure out if you're deliberately being obtuse - or if you're just being comical.
[2] On my first point.... First you claim "it's nonsense of course"... then you say I'm right. (Which, to me, is confusing.)
[2a] Therefore, I would appreciate it if people would stop and saying things like "the measured distortion was inaudible".(That statement is a lie. At best, the measured distortion was some number, which that person believes or has concluded is inaudible.)
[3] On my second point.... THD specifies TOTAL harmonic distortion... which means "the sum of all the harmonic distortion added to together". (And, if you believe that "two things with the same amount of THD will always sound the same" then you are incorrect.)
[3a] (For example, the characteristic sidebands caused by jitter are neither THD or IM distortion, and must either be identified separately, or - less accurately - lumped together under "noise".)
[4] I'm afraid we really have passed the point where "everything about how something sounds" can be said in two or three simple numbers. (My apologies to those who would prefer to live in a world where that was still believed to be true.)

1. And sometimes it's very obvious that you are being deliberately obtuse, to the point of (and sometimes well beyond) the comical! These situations only seem to occur when we're discussing some aspect of audio directly related to the marketing of your company's products ... coincidence?
2. It's only confusing to you because you're "deliberately being obtuse"! I doubt anyone else here is quite so obtuse but just in case, you're right that objective measurements don't by themselves mention audibility but clearly you're wrong in that we can't determine audibility from those measurements.
2a. Therefore, I would more than appreciate it if you would stop contradicting the demonstrated science and stating/implying that "the measured distortion is audible", because in many situations that statement is a (marketing) lie!!

3. That's utter (marketing) nonsense of course, which anyone with a modicum of common sense, who is not "deliberately being obtuse" would realise. If "the sum of all the harmonic distortion added together" is inaudible then OF COURSE any individual type of distortion which comprises the THD (+ N) measurement must also be inaudible! In other words, if you believe that "two things with the same amount of (inaudible) THD will ever sound different (in respect of THD)", then A. You are incorrect and B. You are either incapable of rational thought or are "deliberately being obtuse"!! Case in point ...
3a. If we "lump together" all jitter artefacts "under noise", and the totality of that "noise" is way below audibility, then "the characteristic sidebands" or ANY other component of that "noise" is also inaudible. You keep stating that jitter sidebands are "more audible", which is a lie, they would be exactly the same audibility, IE. Inaudible! And, going back to point #1, you state that the inaudible jitter artefacts/noise would be audible under a completely nonsense set of circumstances, a 1mW office system playing a music recording with no music on it. How much more "deliberately obtuse" and ridiculously "comical" can it get?!!

4. "Everything about how something sounds" can actually be said in one (set of) simple numbers because that's the ONLY thing that digital audio actually is! (My apologies to those who would prefer to live in some nonsense world of audiophile marketing BS where bits aren't just bits and digital audio contains some sort of magic not known to science). Just to repeat, if there are any confused by the "obtuse" (and "comical") marketing BS, it can depend on what we are measuring but if individually or combined those measurements are below the threshold of audibility, then they are inaudible, period!

G
 
Sep 3, 2019 at 4:00 AM Post #13,505 of 17,336
It is sad to still find people who did not have a chance to experience analog at its best. And, failing to do that for any reason, accepting that CD is "good enough". I understand cost can be and usually IS a factor - but that should not form a "brick filtering" of anything that is not CD.

The same goes for high resolution digital. In this case, it has to be NATIVE high resolution recording - not transfer of either analog tapes, records or digital files originally recorded at lower resolution. They still can ( but only if done carefully ) bring an improvement in perceived sound; but they can not possibly meet or exceed modern day native high resolution digital recording, be it PCM or DSD.

That said, I would still prefer listening to some Bjorling and Knappertsbusch and the likes of their ilk from either a scratched ( but not jumping ) record, small portable transistor radio, etc - to some modern day wannabe captured in the best technical conditions available today, played back by sky is the limit audio system in a fab room, built specifically for music listening.
 
Sep 3, 2019 at 4:34 AM Post #13,506 of 17,336
[1] Best processing is no processing - either in digital or analog domain.
[2] I agree the most important things are composition, venue used, performance and session technique in particular.
[2a] I call that combined "initial recording" - because "master" can mean so many different things to so many different people.
[3] If that initial recording is really done well, all post can be reduced to is splitting various portions of different takes of the same piece of music - no other processing whatsoever required.
[4] That is the also the only way to natively record in DSD.
[4a] It gives the sonic quality similar to that of direct to disk analog record,

1. What utter nonsense! Applying your nonsense idea would result in there being no TV or Film sound from the mid 1930's onwards, pretty much no popular music from around the mid 1950's onwards and even relatively few classic music recordings, what's left? Your user name is apparently wrong, it should be "two-tin-cans-and-a-piece-of-string-survivor"!

2. Who are you agreeing with, yourself?
2a. No it doesn't.

3. You claim to have experience of commercial music recording studios but that clearly cannot be true, even of analogue recordings, let alone digital. Hence why you should be "two tin cans survivor", which (along with a tiny number of binaural recordings) is indeed about the only time "no other processing whatsoever [is] required"!

4. Which is precisely why there are almost no commercial DSD recordings which are DSD throughout the process!
4a. Then why does it exist, why invent SACD in the first place, why not just stick to the already invented "direct to disk analog record"? Firstly of course, there is no "direct to disk analogue record" as far as consumers are concerned. At the very least, the master has to be "mastered" (duh!) and then records "pressed" from that master. Secondly, you are contradicting just about ALL the science (pertaining to audio signal fidelity), without a shred of evidence!

You go on about the "real world" but your "real world" is a complete fantasy which ignores nearly all the actual realities of the commercial music recording world for the last 60+ years!

G
 
Sep 3, 2019 at 9:37 AM Post #13,507 of 17,336
As for #1...
I guess we just read things differently.

As for #2...
Until and unless you can find me a few actual test reports stating that "the THD on a certain piece of equipment is inaudible"....
Then stating it as a number will be the literal truth...
And claiming that it is or is not audible will be either an anecdotal claim or a matter of opinion.
(Note that I didn't specifically say that, in a given case, you are necessarily wrong... just that you will not find an actual measurement to substantiate the claim.
(I would NEVER make a claim beyond "statistically - most people can't hear it" or " I personally find it to be totally inaudible"...... )

As for #3....
Yes, obviously, if the total is inaudible, then the individual parts will also probably be inaudible.
(Excluding the unlikely possibility that two individually audible types happen to cancel out.)
Again, however, until and unless you can provide concrete data about "what level of noise is always inaudible" then this remains an unsubstantiated claim.
The problem I have is with generalizations.....
If I take a 20 Hz sine wave.... and add a 1 khz tone at 0.4% of its level.... which is at -50 dB.... the tone will almost certainly be audible.
So... IN THAT PARTICULAR CASE... 0.5% THD will be clearly audible (1 kHz is a harmonic of 20 Hz and the total will be 0.4%).
You can reduce that number, as an average, by half, by having it switch on and off every 0.1 second, but my bet is that the beeping noise will be even more audible.

As for #3a....
Jitter sidebands are harmonically unrelated to the content itself...
MOST people I know seem to agree that, at any given level that may be audible, patterned noise that is harmonically unrelated to the musical content...
- is more audible than most forms of random noise
- is more audible than most forms of harmonic distortion or noise that is harmonically related
(because harmonics are naturally present in some quantities - so we tend to not notice them in small quantities - whereas our brains seem quite adept at noticing unrelated noises.)

1. And sometimes it's very obvious that you are being deliberately obtuse, to the point of (and sometimes well beyond) the comical! These situations only seem to occur when we're discussing some aspect of audio directly related to the marketing of your company's products ... coincidence?
2. It's only confusing to you because you're "deliberately being obtuse"! I doubt anyone else here is quite so obtuse but just in case, you're right that objective measurements don't by themselves mention audibility but clearly you're wrong in that we can't determine audibility from those measurements.
2a. Therefore, I would more than appreciate it if you would stop contradicting the demonstrated science and stating/implying that "the measured distortion is audible", because in many situations that statement is a (marketing) lie!!

3. That's utter (marketing) nonsense of course, which anyone with a modicum of common sense, who is not "deliberately being obtuse" would realise. If "the sum of all the harmonic distortion added together" is inaudible then OF COURSE any individual type of distortion which comprises the THD (+ N) measurement must also be inaudible! In other words, if you believe that "two things with the same amount of (inaudible) THD will ever sound different (in respect of THD)", then A. You are incorrect and B. You are either incapable of rational thought or are "deliberately being obtuse"!! Case in point ...
3a. If we "lump together" all jitter artefacts "under noise", and the totality of that "noise" is way below audibility, then "the characteristic sidebands" or ANY other component of that "noise" is also inaudible. You keep stating that jitter sidebands are "more audible", which is a lie, they would be exactly the same audibility, IE. Inaudible! And, going back to point #1, you state that the inaudible jitter artefacts/noise would be audible under a completely nonsense set of circumstances, a 1mW office system playing a music recording with no music on it. How much more "deliberately obtuse" and ridiculously "comical" can it get?!!

4. "Everything about how something sounds" can actually be said in one (set of) simple numbers because that's the ONLY thing that digital audio actually is! (My apologies to those who would prefer to live in some nonsense world of audiophile marketing BS where bits aren't just bits and digital audio contains some sort of magic not known to science). Just to repeat, if there are any confused by the "obtuse" (and "comical") marketing BS, it can depend on what we are measuring but if individually or combined those measurements are below the threshold of audibility, then they are inaudible, period!

G
 
Sep 3, 2019 at 2:06 PM Post #13,508 of 17,336
@gregorio ref post # 13506

1. What I said is what is best processing - which is none. I did not state it is universally applicable to every genre and type of music.

2. I was agreeing with person whose post I have quoted - @TheSonicTruth.

2.a Wrong. It is ALWAYS "initial recording" ( be it 2 track stereo or multitrack recording ), from which "master" is made at a later stage. Master(s), even the ones with all individual tracks of a multitrack recording already brought to 2 channel stereo (or 5.1 or whatever), can differ depending on the final delivery medium; each has its own set of limits and limitations. Master for analog record has to take into account limits and limitations regarding thickness of the lacquer ( which determines the maximum excursion of the cutting stylus in vertical direction which must never be exceeded - the first most important, governing how much out of phase or stereo bass can be put on record, followed by quite a few others, which are more trade-off between maximum signal to noise ratio vs playing time that can still be fitted on one side of the record . There are good descriptions how a master for disc cutting has to be prepared available online - and they tell a great deal about the capabilities and willingness to risk of a particular cutting provider) . Since MP3s are, like it or not, the way much if not most music is sold and distributed today, mastering engineers DID have to start to master for MP3s a bit differently than say for a RBCD version. Compensating best they can for the defficiences of the final "container" - if you will. The most "unbridled passion" master would be that for the HiRez release - whether in PCM or DSD. And yet another different set of priorities is/was for the compact cassette release. All of these masters can have but do not need to have exactly the same music contained.

3. I should have put it more directly. I have been to enough studios to see and hear WHAT I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT WANT IN A RECORDING. Not even in those I buy, but most definitely not in those I am about to make.
Besides binaural, there are other 2 microphone ( or stereo microphone, if preffered it this way ) miking techniques that do not require any processing.
They require much more careful placement of both mics and musicians in order to be successful, since you can not "fix everything in mix" as is standard practice with multimiking multitrack recordings. As time is money, such recordings are more expensive than multitrack; musicians' fees are the same if they play to find the correct placement or for real - and finding that sweet spot can be VERY time consuming.

4. The reason why there is not more native DSD recording lies mostly in the inability of the musicians to play without mistakes - and although technical difficulties are not trivial, they most definitely are not the prime reason. If say a young talented and aspiring musician wants to record a piece of music his/her teacher recorded say 2 decades ago, using all the editing and error correcting techniques available in PCM, he/she has got to have pretty mighty cojones to allow publishing a recording that does not allow anything but splicing various parts of various takes of the same piece of music. Ever since digital audio is about, musicians are panically avoiding ANY mistakes to be put on record - period. To the point some very big names are recording from bar 1 trough 5, from bar 3 trough 8, from 5 to 10, etc - overlapping a few bars, until the end of composition is finally reached. Voila - note by note perfection can be edited from such a recording. What can not be edited IN is the spirit lost in such grueling process; something only (preferably live) performance in one go can, under lucky circumstances, provide.

There is only a handful of musicians today who CAN play well enough live not to be bothered by gross mistakes. And who are not intimidated to record Direct to Disk . One example I am personally familiar with :



http://www.speakerscornerrecords.co...astor-piazzolla-tangos-del-angel-y-del-diablo

For somebody claiming to be an old studio cat, understanding Direct to Disc workflow is obviously something they did not teach in whatever school you have been attending. And , obviously, you did not find it required to investigate further on your own.

For if you did, you would have known that most usually, direct to disk session is run with a SINGLE lathe. Nobody in the biz interested in quality enough to bother with the stringent requirements of D2D back in mid 70s could afford more than a single lathe; therefore, there was only one master cut onto the lacquer disk, from which trough standard galvanic procedure only one stamper, from which the actual records were stamped, could be produced. That is WHY all D2D releases are LIMITED EDITION; each stamper is good only for so and so much copies, then it has to be discarded. Most D2D releases have individual serial number either stamped or hand written in for this purpose allocated area on the outer jacket. And, for obvious reasons, actual pressed record customer can buy # 0035 is preferable to # 1789 ( nearing its useful life as far as QUALITY pressing is concerned ).
With normal recordings, where master is on analog tape or some digital file, you can cut another lacquer disk>blabla>stamper , big companies could run more lathes in parallel at the same time, if the projected sales figure for that record has been large, etc - all of which was/is with D2D simply - impo$$ible.

D2D sessions, regardles who has been doing them, have always been backed by either analog or digital parallel recording - whether they did mention/admit it or not. For understandable reason - some of the music on originally D2D records had more customer demand than any single stamper could ever hope to supply. That's why, for example, Sheffield has after the original D2D stamper wore out, issued the same music, but this time lacquer disc>blabla>stamper was made from analogue tape master, recorded in parallel during the D2D session.

Homework: who was Keeper Of The Groove ?

I agree most of the recorded music from the last 6 decades could not have been produced in above described puristic manner. And for precisely this reason "older than 60" and "native HiRez of today" are so treasured by discerning listeners.
I am not going to say that invention by Les Paul ( Sound On Sound, as he called it - and later more popularly known as overdubbing ) and everything that followed ( including plugin for plugin for.....plugin nowadays ) was by default bad, evil, music destroying, etc. No. Genres as envisioned by the likes of Vangelis, would simply be impossible without those inventions and people who could put them to the use of music - yourself included. And I appreciate that and am thankful for those new capabilities with which to express the art in new way. None of the music by my beloved Frank Zappa ( with the possible exceptions of his recordings with LSO ) , mastered with such passion and precision by Mark Pinske, would have been possible - that would really be a terrible loss. As well as countless other musicians' good music.

All I am saying that these new capabilities paid their very existence with reduced ultimately achievable sound quality. And where artistic musical capabilities they offer are not absolutely required, they are best simply left out. That is realistically possible only with acoustic music ( classical, jazz, ethno, etc ) - and for precisely this reason, there are very few recordings outside acoustic realm today in any form of HiRez.
 
Sep 3, 2019 at 6:44 PM Post #13,509 of 17,336
Gregorio, these guys are using your replies to try to get you to give them an excuse to just pump out more irrelevant and incorrect streams of words. They're not really replying to anything you say. They're just trying to manipulate us to get us to jump through their hoops.
 
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Sep 3, 2019 at 8:58 PM Post #13,510 of 17,336
I asked HIM - @colonelkernel8 .

For a reason. Because I expect him to answer the question honestly - so that we can proceed from whatever starting point as given/specified by him.

Question for you - can you hear noise ?

Not if it's 96 decibels lower than the signal. In fact, even if it were much higher you'd still have difficulty hearing it with the signal.
 
Sep 3, 2019 at 9:07 PM Post #13,511 of 17,336
OK - first a question for you.

What source(s) are you listening to ?

On which type of amplifiers and transducers ?

This old canard. Written on the first page of the "Audiophile Denial Handbook".

My sources and amplifiers are audibly transparent, with any speaker on the planet. Period. And before you go there, there isn't a record player on the planet that will achieve even half the reproduction quality, it's physically impossible.

My speakers are Focals. They aren't perfect as they're bookshelf speakers, but I have a Martin Logan sub to augment them. This is the only element of my signal chain that could be improved. But money is a concern, and speakers are expensive. That said nothing you have stated would affect anything at this point anyway, the speakers would sound the same with two identical signals.
 
Sep 3, 2019 at 9:09 PM Post #13,512 of 17,336
It is sad to still find people who did not have a chance to experience analog at its best. And, failing to do that for any reason, accepting that CD is "good enough". I understand cost can be and usually IS a factor - but that should not form a "brick filtering" of anything that is not CD.

The same goes for high resolution digital. In this case, it has to be NATIVE high resolution recording - not transfer of either analog tapes, records or digital files originally recorded at lower resolution. They still can ( but only if done carefully ) bring an improvement in perceived sound; but they can not possibly meet or exceed modern day native high resolution digital recording, be it PCM or DSD.

That said, I would still prefer listening to some Bjorling and Knappertsbusch and the likes of their ilk from either a scratched ( but not jumping ) record, small portable transistor radio, etc - to some modern day wannabe captured in the best technical conditions available today, played back by sky is the limit audio system in a fab room, built specifically for music listening.
What is analog at its best? I've been to concerts.
 
Sep 3, 2019 at 9:38 PM Post #13,513 of 17,336
What is analog at its best? I've been to concerts.

I think this brings on the most salient part. I have read forum member responses that audio reproduction is its own thing and shouldn't try to reproduce the conditions of live acoustic performance. However, I do like collecting blu-ray concerts. They don't particularly mimic the "live" performance in that there are many camera angles focused on stage (IE not whatever seat you'd hold) and they usually have a mixed PCM stereo track as well as a high resolution 5.1 surround mix. When trying to switch between the PCM 2.0 mixes and 5.1 lossless, I've noticed levels tend to be completely different. I usually resort to preferring the high res surround that adds some ambience. Camera angles are also ever changing...so the presentation isn't the same as having a static seat there. Now that I have a really good OLED TV and 7.1.4 system, I'd say I get an even better presentation as the cameras are closer and the audio is well mixed. Interesting side note I've noticed about my new receiver...if the source is 92khz+, it stays 2D surround without 3D surround for DTS:X (can switch to Dolby Surround and Auro-3D, but the EQ doesn't seem as good).
 
Sep 4, 2019 at 2:53 AM Post #13,514 of 17,336
Not if it's 96 decibels lower than the signal. In fact, even if it were much higher you'd still have difficulty hearing it with the signal.

The fly in the ointment is EXACTLY here. It is NOT ALWAYS 96 dB below the signal ... - and most definitely CAN cause trouble in certain real world scenarios.

I am asking again : which type of source(s), amp(s) and transducer(s) are in your frequent use ?
 
Sep 4, 2019 at 3:00 AM Post #13,515 of 17,336
If it's -50dB it is probably inaudible under music. But most equipment is at least -70dB.
 

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