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Testing audiophile claims and myths

Discussion in 'Sound Science' started by prog rock man, May 3, 2010.
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  1. gregorio
    Yes I know, I was just following along with the analogy.

    1. Nope, I've no idea what Mr. Calbi knows. I've never met or even communicated with him. You can't even get your attempted doxxing right!
    2. You're the one making the insults and attempting to dox!
    3. Actually getting everything backwards and obfuscating matters is the big problem here in the science forum, telling that person they've got it backwards (refuting their falsehoods) isn't, in fact it's encouraged! How after all this time do you still not understand this simple fact?
    3a. Again, you're under a delusion! There are many thousands of things to know about TV mixing and many thousands of other things to know about music mastering. Someone who knows one or two of those things is NOT an expert, they're pretty much the opposite of an expert and if they think they are an expert then they're delusional!!!
    4. Me too, I've never suggested that my clients go to Mr. Calbi.

    1. Interacting with people looking up at the midnight sky but believing it's noon and therefore insisting that the bright object shining down on them is the sun, will always get the same response: You're ignoring or are ignorant of some of the facts and your assertion is therefore completely false, that bright shiny object is NOT the sun, it's the moon! The first thing a sane person would do is check their facts but not you. You just bleat about being told you're completely wrong, pay the facts "no mind" and therefore blindly continue being completely wrong, so you're refuted again, which you bleat about even more and so on ad infinitum!

    2. I too would be proud to be a PITA to big industry professionals BUT ONLY if I actually had my facts straight. If I had the facts completely backwards, then in effect I'd be proud of repeatedly being an ignorant fool!
    2a. Then why don't you demonstrate it for a change, instead of demonstrating the exact opposite? What's actually happening is that you're giving yourself unlimited credit for a very limited amount of knowledge! Furthermore, understanding only comes from knowledge of all the pertinent facts, if you're paying some of the pertinent facts "no mind" then you're even more likely to have a false understanding than someone with no knowledge at all, hence the old cliche "a little knowledge is dangerous"!

    1. Yes it does and you've been provided with reliable evidence/proof. If you disagree, then this being the science forum, present reliable evidence/proof to the contrary!

    2. That's not reliable evidence/proof, it's just an insulting assertion that you've made-up, don't you know the difference? Do you really expect to be given "credit" for this?

    Again, I agree in principle with your post but there are a couple of points which aren't quite right.

    1. I agree up to the point that "it is in fact a reduction in the crest factor". Certainly the reduction in crest factor correlates with the progression of the loudness war and indicates more compression/limiting (particularly look-ahead limiting). However, crest factor isn't the only factor and indeed crest factor is not part of the calculation of loudness. What manifests as higher average loudness is a higher, frequency adjusted, RMS. Frequency is a huge part of the perception of loudness, it's part of the loudness wars and crest factor does not account for frequency.

    2. Again, I agree entirely, up to the last two sentences. Yes, it is possible to maintain the dynamic range of the original performance but typically it's highly undesirable to do so. Even in the case of an acoustic classical music performance, it's typically desirable to reduce the dynamic range somewhat, because the dynamic range recorded is typically greater than the dynamic range the audience would perceive. When it comes to popular genres (rock/pop/electronic/etc.) the situation is far more drastic and I don't see how you could have developed such a preference. Typically, a mix with no dynamics processing never exists and even if one does, it only exists for a few minutes and is almost certainly heard by no one except the engineer. Typically: Half the lead vocal is near inaudible and the lyrics completely unintelligible, the drumkit sounds like a toy drumkit being played in a toilet and the guitars sound like they're playing a different piece (albeit in the same key). It sounds terrible and barely even recognisable, no one would prefer that but because it typically sounds so bad at that stage, no one is allowed to hear it, commonly not even the musicians themselves!

    G
     
    bfreedma likes this.
  2. bigshot
    I suppose negative attention is better than no attention at all. I don't know if that's going to carry you very far though. It must feel weird to have so little going for you that you have to go into internet forums and pick fights over stuff you only half understand. It kind of makes me feel sorry for you.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
  3. TheSonicTruth

    RE: Modern vs Vintage CDs

    Then explain to me why I must LOWER the volume of the modern CD from the volume setting that was comfortable for listening to the vintage one?

    If they are equally dynamic, then exactly what changed?
     
  4. KeithEmo
    You do not HAVE TO lower the volume.
    You find the mastering style of many modern engineers to be unpleasant...
    And so you choose to reduce the volume...

    How you interpret the explanation is a matter of how you look at the situation itself.
    A modern CD has the same physical dynamic range as an old one...
    The loudest sounds can be, and probably are, just as loud...
    And the quietest sounds are just as quiet.

    Dynamic range refers to the range between the quietest sounds and the loudest sounds...
    In this case, the range between those two has remained the same...
    All that has changed is how the person mastering the disc has chosen to use that range.

    A good analogy might be with painting...
    Black paint is still black, and white paint is still white, but some artists choose to paint brighter paintings than others.
    (There could even be a trend where brighter paintings become popular... but the range between black and white hasn't changed.)

     
  5. james444 Contributor

    I think the Sound On Sound article explains that pretty well:

    [​IMG]

    Look at the mean distribution curve for songs produced in 2007. It peaks at a higher level than the mean curve for 1967 songs. This means the songs are generally louder in 2007. Then look at the 'widths' of both curves: they're comparable, which basically means that something closely related to dynamic variability hasn't changed between 1967 and 2007. Now look at the little indentation at the right of the 2007 curve: songs from this year feature a density of high-level samples that's unnaturally high: level distribution suddenly stops following Gauss's normal distribution near the high levels. Compare the shapes of the two curves: it looks like the blue one was literally 'pushed' towards the right. This shows the result of brickwall limiting.

    To go on with the comparison with images, it's as if, for the last 20 years, all pictures in books and magazines have been getting brighter and brighter. There are still deep blacks, the contrast remains intact, but all images look brighter. This is illustrated with the Tower Bridge pictures on the image. It's as if everything these days is supposed to look 'flashy', even though common sense suggests there are some images that shouldn't look flashy at all, in any situation. This is all the more true in the case of audio content, for which 'brighter' doesn't simply mean a higher density of clearer pixels. It also means reduced crest factor, envelope modifications, use of the second loudness paradigm and, in the worst cases, distortion. Common sense suggests that although there is nothing wrong with these characteristics as such, they shouldn't be on virtually all records.
     
  6. TheSonicTruth
    Of course I do - my own ears tell me the f'king modern CD, or remaster of vintage, is LOUDER!

    Keith, to be frank, I'm sick of yours, and Gregorio's, and Bigshot's, and everyone else's play on words and mind-games in here.

    If my wife tells me it's too fking loud, then it's TOO F'KING LOUD
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
    oldmate likes this.
  7. bfreedma

    Words to consider: "It can't be everyone else all the time".

    Have you ever thought of taking a step back and giving consideration to the possibility that the communications issue is on your end? Or the irony that you keep calling out others for being insulting while posting pictures of horses, cursing constantly and doxing (failed)?
     
  8. TheSonicTruth
    On "my" end??

    I've got clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, telling me that a certain CD of mine ISN'T really louder than the other, given the same volume setting, even when my OWN EARS tell me otherwise, and you're telling me the communication issue is with me?

    Well I'll tell you something: I've got a very big casino to sell you!
     
  9. GearMe
    If someone tells you "Use your ears" - they're probably a politician... :wink:

    (sorry it seemed to fit the 'discussion)
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
    castleofargh and bfreedma like this.
  10. bigshot
    SonicTruth, sit down and hush. This is the kind of behavior that gets people thread banned. You don't want that to happen to you again, so treat others with respect- don't insult people or try to dox them, engage with others- don't rant at them, and keep with the flow of the conversation- don't keep dragging it back to your pet subject when no one else has any further interest in discussing it.
     
  11. bfreedma

    Rather than using your ears, why don't you use an SPL meter and take the possibility of bias out of the equation. Even though I'm not sure that's what others are telling you.

    And again, you to accuse others of being insulting and make that post...
     
  12. castleofargh Contributor
    oh please shoot me now...

    quasi-modo ON:
    personal attacks = no
    how freaking hard is it to follow that one simple rule?

    I don't know who started or how much went down because TBH I'm super bored with this topic and don't read a lot of it(like when I come and 3 pages have been added, I close the tab). right now I'm still in that grey area where things aren't right but I do nothing. it's not like I'm fine with that clever "no u" level of argument that always occurs when someone starts attacking the messenger instead of the message. but why do that when personal attacks = no ?
    the reason why I'm not moderating is laziness and the complexity of the task. as doing it properly would require that I delete obviously all the improper posts, but also all the quotes and direct replies. each time a post has relevant content and some attack, I have to weight the pros and cons and decide if I should delete(I can't edit your posts anymore since the new forum so it's all or nothing). but then if I remove something significant, the entire page might become an unreadable mess without context, so then what do I do? remove the entire thing? and all the people who did nothing wrong wonder why they got unfairly censored by that dickhead modo. it's a real pain in the butt to moderate entire pages because not only one guy didn't follow the rules, but then several others replied to it and just added oil to the fire. :rage:
    if something has no place on this forum, ignore the kid who did it and report the post please. that's by far the best thing you can do for your fellow Head-fiers.
    beside just the crazy idea of doing what is right, don't mistake my laziness/lack of moderator skill, for a go ahead signal to keep on going with the attacks! this post is a warning, it even has red in it! sign of danger in most of the animal kingdom. if things don't fall in line, I'll consider that you've seen this warning and ignored it. which is close to killing john wick's dog, level of provocation.
     
  13. gregorio
    Hallelujah brother, now that is how you should have started; by asking questions rather than making false assertions of fact! Unfortunately though, you're not really asking questions, you're just being facetious again because you've made it abundantly clear that you "pay no mind" to the answers to these questions!!

    1. And again, completely backwards, well done! You're the one "paying no mind" to the facts, so you're the one playing mind-games!!

    2. You're joking right? Do you really believe that science/the facts are dictated by what your wife tells you, or is it that you believe this is the "What thesonictruth's wife tells him" forum? I stated (and it should be obvious in a science based forum) that if you have a contrary view to the presented reliable evidence/proof then you need to present your own reliable evidence/proof. What your wife tells you does NOT qualify as reliable evidence/proof and the fact that you have presented it, just further demonstrates that you obviously have no idea what science and "reliable evidence/proof" actually means. Clearly you're in the wrong forum!
    In this particular case, it's not so much what your wife has told you that is wrong, it's what you've erroneously concluded from it but there's no point in explaining this any further because it would answer your questions above and you'll pay it "no-mind" anyway!

    G
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
  14. TheSonicTruth

    And in the above post, you have given me no answers regarding the below:

    Allow me to clarify: I understand that the Red Book format of the CD hasn't changed in nearly 40 years. BUT: Something, about what has been put on it - the CONTENT - has CERTAINLY changed. Comparing rock to rock, 'American Idiot'(Green Day) is MUCH LOUDER than 'Highway To Hell'(AC/DC CD from mid '80s). And rap to rap: 'Elephunk'(Black Eyed Peas), blows away 'Run-DMC' or 'Whodini'(both mid-'80s original CDs).

    I have simulated this phenomenon myself in my DAW: I ripped a wav of a vintage song into my DAW and made a copy of it. Then, I applied a moderate level of DRC and peak-limiting(4dB) to the copy, then applied gain to bring what's left back up to a hair below full scale.

    Then I switched between the two while listening, and the one I processed IS LOUDER than the one I left alone. Even if I peak-normalized the original rip, it was still much softer than the processed version.

    My wife out in the hallway told me to STOP - "you're scaring the cats!" - every time I switched to the louder version. And if you don't believe my wife, you'll incur the wrath of the Philippines: If a Filipino says something's louder than something else - it's LOUD. And if they smell smoke Gregorio - don't argue! Movie's over, time to exit the cinema. No BS from that side of the ocean, lol!

    So back to my example, yes, they both peak at -0.5dBfs, but the one I FUTZED with is definitely louder. No need to emply a SPL Meter to know that! I can HEAR the results with my ears, and I can see the difference - the fattened-up sausage waveform vs the ragged one with lots of spikes - in my daw.

    Enough with the political tactics Gregorio: alleging I've "got it all backwards", that I make "false assertions", basically that I can't tell sh|t from shinola when they're both in front of me. Of all the participants within the last five pages of this thread, YOU have imparted to me the LEAST amount of actual knowledge, yet the greatest amount of political diatribe and deflection and criticism of how I "don't know anything". Not that anyone else within these latest few pages has imparted that much more useful info, but still, you are leading in that regard.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
  15. gregorio
    Your statement is false, you deciding to ignore the answers is completely different from "me having given you no answers". You accuse us of playing word games when in fact you're the one playing word games! The answers (along with reliable supporting evidence/proof) have ALREADY been posted in the article to which you "pay no mind"! If you really want answers, then read the article, if you don't understand it, then ask but don't just make-up another bunch of false assertions, justify them with what your wife told you and then bleat and insult everyone when your false assertions are refuted!

    G
     
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