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Testing audiophile claims and myths

Discussion in 'Sound Science' started by prog rock man, May 3, 2010.
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  1. TheSonicTruth
    (Gavel knock knock) Judge: 'Vague, ambiguous, deflecting from topic at hand'

    See, you just did it again Greg: telling me to go read some article I've already read three times, even once before I started posting here, instead of using your own words to explain what I'm actually experiencing with modern releases on CD vs releases from 30 years ago on CD.
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
  2. gregorio
    It really is impressive, I refute your false statement and you respond by making another false statement and accuse me of doing the same thing again! It's truly ridiculous! I've posted that article before (in a different thread) and explained it to you in my own words. You explain to me why should I do it again, especially in light of the fact that you "Pay it no mind" anyway?

    You stated "That SOS article tries to refute the loudness war, both the recent nuclear(digital) one" but the main section (after the intro) starts "Is Music Really Louder Now? - Yes it is, and there is no doubt about that.". You've apparently read that 3 times and still somehow falsely understood it to mean the opposite. Sorry but I don't know how to explain that sentence any clearer, even if I wanted to. Obviously, it doesn't matter how many times you read even a perfectly clear, simple sentence if you're "paying it no mind"!

  3. Steve999
    As cool as it would be, I really don’t think @gregorio is Greg Calbi. Greg Calbi does not appear to be a classically trained musician and he does not appear to be involved in the production of movies, for starters. So my best judgment is that it is a pretty serious offense toward both @gregorio and Greg Calbi to identify @gregorio as Greg Calbi.
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
  4. TheSonicTruth
    In all honesty, in my last reply I was too lazy to type out -orio! lol
  5. bigshot
    I don't have a wife, but if I had let my mom tell me when something was too loud, my teenage years would have been a lot less enjoyable.
  6. castleofargh Contributor
    I can tell Greg's name to whoever pays me ...
    ...one million dollars!
  7. castleofargh Contributor
    @TheSonicTruth you do seem a little stuck in your worldview(like most opinionated people). if a CD feels louder than another one, then so be it. we now have an entire sample size of 2 CDs, so what? all the terms we mostly use incorrectly to define sound levels or notions of loudness, dynamic, etc, have an actual definition that some people do know and use correctly when interpreting what we say. maybe it's not very fair to crucify you when you use some wrongly for your argumentation and then let me go when I do the same. but you can't really expect equal treatment and high level tolerance from someone you have repeatedly antagonized on that very same subject:yum:. me being the ignorant modo trying his best, does invite more forgiving reactions in this particular context.

    you like to take stuff and use it as evidence of loudness war, abusive compression, and similar "bad habits" of modern recording. but most of the time, what you show has many reasons to be what it is, and you picking your favorite explanation is not accepted as a fine rigorous argument. judging digital tools and methods by what was perhaps a standard for old analog stuff, is at best a retrograde way to look at things, and more often than not, simply an incorrect way to define things. musical genres have evolved, recording and playback tools have evolved, the job of a sound engineer has evolved, our consumer habits concerning music have evolved a lot, including how we listen to music(a lot more on the go or in noisy places). we wouldn't criticize modern music because it doesn't follow the standards of the first waltz.

    now forgetting all this for a sec, a CD has 16bit to play with. if I was creating my album and someone came telling me to follow say EBU R128 recommendations for my music content, I'd tell that person to F off. first because I'm the creator and wish to do things the way I want. but also because I'm not giving up 3 or 4 of my 16bits when that loudness standard could pretty much be applied on playback or the listener could just go and turn the volume knob. it completely makes sense to normalize peaks to 0dB on a music album because it is how you retain the most data. to take the photography analogy posted before, it is the reason why on films I would often underexpose a little. while on digital camera I have completely embraced "exposing to the right", because that's what gives me the most information with that type of sensor. and just the same as digital audio, we end up playing very close to clipping because that's the best choice in this context.
    back to music, of course a classical album is by nature not going to be overly processed, it involves acoustic instruments and maybe voices also not processed much, so the overall dynamic range will tend to be pretty big. placing the peaks near zero dB will make that genre sound overall much quieter than say a recording of a typical synthesizer, or some modern music with heavily processed voices and instruments. nobody's wrong, nothing is "bad", they're just different genres done differently and giving different results.

    when you argue that a modern release of an old album is too compressed for your taste, I can sympathize with that, in fact I often agree(not always, but often enough). when you argue that the music should follow the original intent, I can again understand where you come from. I can certainly understand the desire to respect the integrity of an art piece. although what exactly gets to be defined as the art piece when most of what we will hear never even existed, and the playback will always be affected by the playback gears? that's kind of a tricky notion for me. but beside those 2 ideas, anytime you complain about music being louder or too compressed, that's really just your own taste disagreeing with the style of a period. it's not different than when someone hates rap music. there is no objective argument about that, no right or wrong. before was one way, after is another, it's basically evolution.
    gregorio and taffy2207 like this.
  8. bigshot
    I know who Castle is. He is one of the knights who say Ni.
  9. sonitus mirus
    Ahh! Don´t use that word! He might send us off to get another shrubbery.
  10. TheSonicTruth
    "feels louder"? It IS louder!!

    Just to satisfy all the politicians on here, I metered the two CDs I mentioned, Elephunk and DMC: 80dB sensitivity, A-weighting, Slow response.

    Once I had DMC hovering around Zero @ 80db, where most of the songs I sampled stayed midway through, I switched to Elephunk. Same amp volume and meter settings and physical location - about where I would sit.

    Barely two bars in, the intro to Elephunk PEGGED THAT METER ALL THE WAY TO THE RIGHT! Sure, it dropped for a few seconds at a time, to about +2 SPL, or during a softer intro, like trk. 13 "Where Is the Love"?, but once even that song got going, it stayed above +4 on that meter consistently, pegging to the right often.

    So now, are you all satisfied that I am not imagining things? The MATERIAL on my more recent CD IS LOUDER than the material on my older one.

    Aside: Once I volume normalized - TURNED DOWN - Elephunk to average 0 on the meter, I noticed one thing - the needle quite consistently hovered there. When I put DMC back on, and normalized - TURNED IT UP - to 0 on the meter, the needle moved above and below zero a bit more than it did during the Black Eyed Peas. This movement to me implies more range in loudness on the older DMC recording, and less on the BEP one. More dynamics? You guys tell me - you're the experts in semantics! I just deal with what IS.
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  11. TheSonicTruth
    It's not my taste, or even about my taste. Stop playing word games! Elephunk proved louder than DMC. American Idiot proved louder than Highway To Hell and even my Kiss CDs.

    Castle, with me you get the real deal. If we park our cars together and your's is white and mine is Navy, your car is BRIGHTER than mine - period. It's not my "opinion". White is a brighter color than Navy. Facts here, not Fox!
  12. james444 Contributor
    Not quite, I'm afraid. Your example is valid for lightness, but not necessarily for brightness. While it's a fact that white is a lighter color than navy (regardless of lighting condition), the same cannot be said about brightness.

    If Castle's white car is parked in the shade and your navy car is parked in the sun, the navy car may well be perceived as brighter than the white one.

  13. bfreedma

    Has anyone argued that one CD may be louder (or softer) than an entirely different title? That seems like a statement of the obvious. The previous discussion was about the difference (or not) between two versions of the same recording.

    You don't like louder CDs. I think everyone knows that. Can we move on?

    As stated above, you car color analogy is incomplete/incorrect. That tends to be an issue with over-generalizations.
  14. Light - Man
    Maybe if Castles car was set on fire (no fraudulent insurance claims intended :ksc75smile:) then it might be as bright as white.

    See guys, we can't even agree on the difference between black and white on this thread!

    Time to cull this thread and put it out of its misery.

    This thread is just a conduit for bickering and nothing positive or worthwhile will ever be achieved here.
  15. TheSonicTruth
    Keith Emo, a few pages back, suggested that I "don't have to turn down" the volume for the CD that sounds louder to me. So perhaps you should clarify that with him. Of course I have to turn down the louder recording - people are leaving the room!

    As far as 'original' vs 'remastered' of the same album - in the case of say, 'High Voltage' - of course the meter indicates louder for the remaster! Not as extreme as Elephunk or American Idiot(albums of their own era) but still louder.
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