Testing audiophile claims and myths
Jul 23, 2018 at 7:36 PM Post #9,286 of 17,336
Hey MacacaoDoSom, can you tell me where you got this track? It's pretty astounding. What does it sound like when you play it? I'm guessing there's some pretty hefty distortion going on when you pump those kinds of ultrasonics through a consumer amp!

Well, @bigshot, you are guessing. Why, on earth, do decent amps ( and DACs, and everything containing amps, from the smallest low noise preamps to "welding "aparatus" power amps for driving electrostatics ) sport , at the very least, 100 kHz bandwidth ( no worse than - 3dB at that frequency ) ? Why there are "damn fast" (official name in mfr's catalogues ) ICs/op-amps in existence - if not to survive > 20 kHz content with aplomb ? Why there are X KV per microsecond slew rates in some premioum amps ?

If an amp is well made, it will survive the ultimate torture : IMD 98 kHz + 99 kHz ( or even MUCH higher in frequency, difference signal being 1 kHz ), ratio 1:1, , close to full output ( no less than -3dB ), with no more than around -80dB diff product at 1 khz. And other diff products at even lower level.

There ARE reasons for PCM 384 kHz - even for 768 kHz sampling frequency. And "corresponding" DSD rates. If you ever decide to dip into > 20 khz waters, you WILL stumble upon digital problems - and quantization noise is not a fairy tale. Those - to those unacustomed to work with > 20 kHz - at first glance crazy overkill sampling rates do have one major purpose : keeping the digital noise outside "audible" band low enough not to cause distress downstream in the system.

If you did any work in this field, you would have known that the track in question is actually rather well done. As you do listen to SACDs because of 5.1 content - you are listening to DSD64. And THAT has noise figures/levels above 20 kHz one hell of a lot worse than the track you fear to cause trouble with consumer amps.

I am trying to find within my collection a phono cartridge that will be kinda OK while not being exorbitantly expensive relative the TT in question. And what REALLY makes one angry is ultrasonic noise of soundcards, limited frequency response, etc, etc - while trying to record what is going on. Analog oscilloscope tells the truth - while digital, at least up to 192/24, struggles across the board.

I will present the problems that arise from ultrasonics in "lesser" amplifiers; mercilessly so. Because there is no more volatile combination as DSD64 ( aka SACD , which only adds copy protection ) source driving electrostatic amp. You WILL see how bloody important are "a few picofarads" - specially if "converted" to money required to buy an amp capable of driving that excess capacitance. As it is ANYTHING but small change.

The world of sound above 20 kHz can be problematic - but if appropriate measures are taken, it can be "bussiness as usual" - and does not, inherently, require exorbitant priced gear.. But it will always be more expensive than RBCD only requirement.
 
Jul 23, 2018 at 7:41 PM Post #9,287 of 17,336
Please make an effort to follow what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the HD track that MacacaoDoSom made the measurement of. Most consumer amps can't handle high volume spikes up near 96kHz like that. Look at that chart. It's a poorly engineered mess and would sound like a mess on most people's stereos. The CD release probably sounds fine because there's nothing but noise above 20kHz on that recording anyway.

\You shoot off into tangents too much. That's why I avoid talking to you.
 
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Jul 24, 2018 at 3:28 AM Post #9,288 of 17,336
Yes, consider it done - in the frame of the pending (and long overdue ) review of the iFi Audio Pro iESL . I have used an extremely good amp from 1977 ( plus or minus a year or two - max ) - power amp section of Technics SU-8080 integrated amplifier ( which is nothing but an improved version - completely separate power supplies for each channel - of SE-9060 power amp ) to drive the iFi unit. For reference Stax SRM1MK2 amplifier has been used - both combos driving a single pair of Stax Lambda Pro headphones. I did throw additional capacitance of the order of magnitude of another pair for measurements. You'll find everything in that review - ARTA http://www.artalabs.hr/ scren shots of THD, IMD, etc.

I am well aware of the danger of >20 kHz signals messing up with the amps. Been for ages. Absolutely NOTHING can inject a higher frequency garbage into the signal than a phono cartridge on the verge of mistracking - it is even worse than at the actual mistracking. FAR too high in frequency for any normal digital measurement equipment ( short of "officially we don't have it, but can measure in a pinch" military stuff ) to be displayed in the graph or "oscilloscope screen shot ". I had to get a 100 MHz analog oscilloscope to see it - as 20 unit MHz was at the very edge of "showing somethhing".

Going for so high extension in the frequency response IS a double edged sword. I use AGI 511 preamplifier http://www.audiogeneral.com/. The man who designed it in cca 1974 is Mr. Donald Siegel - and he is THE originator of the double blind AB(X) testing. It is STILL the fastest (phono) preamp - ever. As Mr. Siegel is obviously not exactly keen on promotion etc ( he is LONG ago moved from audio only to his current main objective, furnishing the complete A/V installations for halls, etc ), I will not publish the original brochure or even the circuit diagram - which both are a model of precision, if there ever was one in audio. Here a brief summary from Japan : http://audio-database.com/AGI/amp/model511-e.html Main point is that the bandwidth for the phono section is - minimum - 90 MHz ( NOT a typo, in words : ninety megahertz, minimum ). It is the only phono preamp adhering to RIAA curve ( deviating not more than 4 mB ( again, NOT a misprint, mili Bell ) - from the ideal - built with near zero tolerance parts in the RLC filter; i.e; a resistor of say 23865 ohm shown in circuit diagram will not be 24 kohm 0.X% part, but HAS 23865 PRINTED on it ... ) that can re-constitute the next to perfect square wave fed to its input trough an inverse RIAA network. Every other phono preamp I have ever tested this way does round the leading edge of the square wave - if ever so slightly.

Likewise, the line stage does similar - for the low frequencies. Into 47 kohm load, its output is less than 3 dB down below at 0.1 Hz - and can drive 20 Hz - flat - into 600 ohms load ... It has the most accurate 20 Hz square wave response of any AC coupled preamplifier.

Now, AGI 511 is ANYTHING BUT a consumer amplifier. It is built better than any Hewlett Packard or Tektronix measurement equipment I have ever seen. In many ways, it is still unmatched to this day - and if upgraded trough what technology ( new generation IC op amps have 1/10th of distortion and noise and are at least two times faster than the original complement ) did bring in the 4 decades after its introduction, it is a VERY tough partner in a shootout - for any preamp. Its Aichile's heel(s) is (are) purely mechanical; the RCA jacks that interface directly with a very dedicated RCA printed circuit board have a nasty propensity to break signal carrying contact - and they are a major PITA to repair. I lucked out a few years ago, finding the original RCAs on ebay - but that is more fluke luck than anything else. Replacing all the RCAs with something modern and making a PCB to fit the chassis is a MAJOR operation - and costly. Also, the potentiometers used are intentionally carbon type - chosen for audio quality. That means that tracking between the two channels never was really good even in a brand new unit - and can not be expected to retain the same quality 40+ years later. No noise or intermittent sound, anywhere within the operation range of the potentiometers, though. Luckily, AGI 511 is not a slimline pancake - so enough place to fit either a potentiometer or stepped attenuator as volume and balance control$$$$ .

For all of the above reasons, AGI 511 can be your best friend - or worst enemy, depending how you look at it. It will unearth - AUDIBLY - stylus wear well before any other preamp would. The extreme case happened at one of my friends , who used a well regarded tube preamp at the time. He has been complaining that lately his beloved Koetsu cartridge started to sound "strange". OK, an oscilloscope and AGI 511 ( line stage ) are always with me in such cases. A quick glance at the output from the Koetsu playing back square wave at innermost radius on the test record showed - CLEARLY - that the stylus is worn beyond usability. Playing back the normal music using said unnamed tubed preamp it sounded "strange" - but playing back trough AGI 511 it was - unlistenable.

That is WHY I also use other, lesser phono preamps; used records can have too much damage inflicted to them troughout the decades, even if now played back by a VdH/Micro Line type of stylus - and filtering some of it out may well sound advantageous.

The point is the fact that my friend has been listening to ( and irreparably destroying irreplaceable records...) with a stylus that was well past both its prime and usability - because the preamp has been "nice" and swept all the garbage generated by the worn stylus under the carpet - trough excessive HF filtering.

My ( and not mine only ...) regret is that Mr. Siegel did not decide to put the accompaniying power amp prototype to the market. The thing was rumored to have 1000 V per microsecond slew rate - in second half of the 1970s . It was reportedly too expensive to produce due to extremely tight semiconductor tolerances required. I have never even seen the picture of the unit - but judging from the 511 preamp, it must have been a truly awesome amp.

Yes, CDs do allow for the lesser amplifiers to be used to decent effect - but in 2018, there are good ways known to build an amp that does not cost an arm and a leg and can still manage the >20 kHz HF content without excessive distress.

But, we do agree on one point; the recording in question has nothing above say 30 kHz that is meaningful information on the ORIGINAL recording - which back in the day meant analogue reel to reel tape. The only true use of HR digital is in the new recordings of either new musicians and/or new music. As of today, there are - at least - two microphones available for music recordings that go to at least 100 kHz - and it is about time "recorders" catch up.
 
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Jul 24, 2018 at 1:14 PM Post #9,289 of 17,336
I edited out all the irrelevant digressions in your post and tried to turn it into a coherent comment.

Yes, consider it done - I am well aware of the danger of >20 kHz signals messing up with the amps. But, we do agree on one point; the recording in question has nothing above say 30 kHz that is meaningful information on the ORIGINAL recording - which back in the day meant analogue reel to reel tape.

If you look at the chart, there's no meaningful information on the original recording above 20kHz. A CD could contain this recording perfectly. Everything above 20kHz is noise of one type or another. That's true of most analogue recordings made on reel to reel tape.
 
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Jul 24, 2018 at 3:25 PM Post #9,290 of 17,336
<A bunch of garbage with anecdotes related to 1970's amplifiers.>

Are you capable of responding in a way that doesn't evoke all of the magic of amplifier designs of 40 years ago? It's really, REALLY annoying at this point.

"Why there are "damn fast" (official name in mfr's catalogues ) ICs/op-amps in existence - if not to survive > 20 kHz content with aplomb ?"

I can answer that. Op-amps are used for way more than audio, and are designed to work on all kinds of frequency spectra, including RF to microwave frequencies.
 
Jul 24, 2018 at 3:30 PM Post #9,291 of 17,336
Going for so high extension in the frequency response IS a double edged sword. I use AGI 511 preamplifier http://www.audiogeneral.com/. The man who designed it in cca 1974 is Mr. Donald Siegel - and he is THE originator of the double blind AB(X) testing. It is STILL the fastest (phono) preamp - ever. As Mr. Siegel is obviously not exactly keen on promotion etc ( he is LONG ago moved from audio only to his current main objective, furnishing the complete A/V installations for halls, etc ), I will not publish the original brochure or even the circuit diagram - which both are a model of precision, if there ever was one in audio. Here a brief summary from Japan : http://audio-database.com/AGI/amp/model511-e.html Main point is that the bandwidth for the phono section is - minimum - 90 MHz ( NOT a typo, in words : ninety megahertz, minimum ). It is the only phono preamp adhering to RIAA curve ( deviating not more than 4 mB ( again, NOT a misprint, mili Bell ) - from the ideal - built with near zero tolerance parts in the RLC filter; i.e; a resistor of say 23865 ohm shown in circuit diagram will not be 24 kohm 0.X% part, but HAS 23865 PRINTED on it ... ) that can re-constitute the next to perfect square wave fed to its input trough an inverse RIAA network. Every other phono preamp I have ever tested this way does round the leading edge of the square wave - if ever so slightly.

This is a stack of complete nonsense.
 
Jul 24, 2018 at 5:07 PM Post #9,292 of 17,336
This is a stack of complete nonsense.

Sorry, if you can not undertand what was written, that does not mean it is a complete nonsense.
Are you capable of responding in a way that doesn't evoke all of the magic of amplifier designs of 40 years ago? It's really, REALLY annoying at this point.

"Why there are "damn fast" (official name in mfr's catalogues ) ICs/op-amps in existence - if not to survive > 20 kHz content with aplomb ?"

I can answer that. Op-amps are used for way more than audio, and are designed to work on all kinds of frequency spectra, including RF to microwave frequencies.


Are you STILL not capable of comprehending what somebody did over 4 deacades ago ? That the design in question is way better than almost anything you can buy today ?
The only meaningful progress in phono preamps are current preamplifiers - and these need as low impedance source , in this case cartridge, as it is possible. Such carts with usable voltage output are only possible for about a decade - and we are talking of below 10 ohm, preferably even below one ohm cartridge impedance. None have been available in 1974 or so...
Do you find it REALLY annoying that something 40 years old can stil mop the floor with supposedly latest/greatest ?

If you have never experienced a truly fast audio system - not my fault. It is perfectly OK to say that you do not like it, that it is overkill, that it costs too much - but only AFTER experiencing it.
And if you knew more, you would have known why so "damn fast" circuits are required for even as slow devices as CD players.

And, of course, op-amps are used for many applications outside audio. And many non-audio ( too fast for traditionalists...) op-amps with otherwise good audio performance are being ever more used by the audio designers. Because they usually perform better, measure better and sound better - at not too great increase in price.
 
Jul 24, 2018 at 5:55 PM Post #9,293 of 17,336
I edited out all the irrelevant digressions in your post and tried to turn it into a coherent comment.



If you look at the chart, there's no meaningful information on the original recording above 20kHz. A CD could contain this recording perfectly. Everything above 20kHz is noise of one type or another. That's true of most analogue recordings made on reel to reel tape.

If this refers to the Cotrane 192/24 track, you are most probably right. Back in the day this track was recorded, there were not (m)any recording chains capable of > 20 kHz recording.

Reel to reel recorders can go quite well over 20 kHz - depending on the model and tape speed. The same goes for the measuring microphones pressed into recording music service - which, ultimately, culminated in the first commercial oficially available ( not modified in the field ) mike intended for music recording by Bruel & Kjaer - the venerable 4006 from the early 80s( back then Bruel & Kjaer, now DPA - which is nothing but B & K music recording branch gone on its own , but still having tight connection with the mother firm ) . So, in early 80s there definitely were both microphones and analog recorders capable of > 20 kHz. And although not particularly numerous, the recordings made with these swansong analog recorders fed by 4006s ( and its siblings ) ARE available. - and exceed what CD can do. That is why many of these are being now converted to DSD and HR PCM - which can much more closely replicate the original analogue master tape.

I did say - countless times by now - that the only true way to use/sell HR and DSD is with new recordings - using entire recording chain that can support whatever the chosen bandwidth > 20 kHz. Just because most recordings available do not contain meaningful information > 20 k, that does not mean it is meaningless and can be continualy avoided. There are sounds above 20 k, without which the reproduction of the recording will never sound convincing enough.
 
Jul 24, 2018 at 6:48 PM Post #9,294 of 17,336
Sorry, if you can not undertand what was written, that does not mean it is a complete nonsense.

...and if you don't bother to communicate clearly, it doesn't mean that your intended message makes any sense to anyone else.

Irrelevant digressions snipped again...

If this refers to the Cotrane 192/24 track, you are most probably right. Back in the day this track was recorded, there were not (m)any recording chains capable of > 20 kHz recording. Reel to reel recorders can go quite well over 20 kHz - depending on the model and tape speed. There are sounds above 20 k, without which the reproduction of the recording will never sound convincing enough.

Even if a recorder was capable of recording super audible frequencies, did recording studios bother to calibrate above 20kHz? I would think that if there's anything above that, it's probably a crap shoot. And it would probably be filtered out as noise during mixing and mastering. None of this matters a bit since humans can't hear above 20kHz and those ultrasonic frequencies add absolutely nothing to the perceived quality of music. Your last comment is incorrect.
 
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Jul 24, 2018 at 7:18 PM Post #9,295 of 17,336
...and if you don't bother to communicate clearly, it doesn't mean that your intended message makes any sense to anyone else.

Irrelevant digressions snipped again...



Even if a recorder was capable of recording super audible frequencies, did recording studios bother to calibrate above 20kHz? I would think that if there's anything above that, it's probably a crap shoot. And it would probably be filtered out as noise during mixing and mastering. None of this matters a bit since humans can't hear above 20kHz and those ultrasonic frequencies add absolutely nothing to the perceived quality of music. Your last comment is incorrect.

And even if it did, then by definition the effect of the ultrasonics on the sound must be within the frequency range which humans can hear. If so, then surely it is only relevant to a live event as a recording of it would have captured the effects.

That raises another issue. If we playback the ultrasonics would it not double the effect on the human hearing range (given the recording has already captured the effect) and result in a distortion?
 
Jul 24, 2018 at 7:25 PM Post #9,296 of 17,336
I doubt that ultrasonic sound could affect audible sound in any way. It's like x rays not affecting visible light rays.
 
Jul 24, 2018 at 9:32 PM Post #9,298 of 17,336
What does it mean if an amp is "fast"? Damping factor?
as a rule, if @analogsurviver says that something is great, just assume that more ultrasounds are involved. it's not a 100% thing but still a very safe bet.
here I'm guessing the idea was about slew rate.
 
Jul 24, 2018 at 10:16 PM Post #9,299 of 17,336
as a rule, if @analogsurviver says that something is great, just assume that more ultrasounds are involved. it's not a 100% thing but still a very safe bet.
here I'm guessing the idea was about slew rate.

Well, I have singled out AGI 511 because it is an extremely BALANCED product; it does not rob Peter to pay Paul, in any way. It has extremely extended bandwidth, not only in Treblesonics, but also bass - veeeery low, below 0.1 Hz with most normal impedance equipmnent - and is flatter within those extremes than most labs can measure.- includin phono RIAA equalizer and its second to none accuracy of RIAA cutve. It has very low distortion across the board, its noise that was not exactly stellar back in the day can be significntly improved by the new IC op-amps - and is designed to run 24/7/365 - for 40+ years. No AGI I have seen or heard of has failed electrically - ever. The only problem are those pesky RCA females ...

Of course, with the speed like that, slew rate is bound to be great. Recent(ish) op-amps also usable in this circuit can swing up to 3000 V per microsecond. This can not be utilized to the full, since at least I have never heard of coupling capacitors that could even approach this figure - and the speed thus depends on coupling caps. Although the original price was relatively low $ 500 back in the day ( when Audio Research and Mark Levinson charged double or more for their premium efforts ), this did not allow for film coupling caps - stock units all have electrolytics. But - an important BUT - there IS ample space on PCB - indicating that prototypes have used film caps, which had to be replaced in production run with electrolytics because of economics. Needless to say, in my unit electrolitycs are used in signal path only in one location - because I have not yet found a film cap of required value and small enough size to fit in the available space.

In short - it is great because it is great in stock form - and can be significantly improved still further. It is unlikely it will be "heard" in any system that does not place totally out of ordinary requirements for preamp.
 
Jul 25, 2018 at 3:56 AM Post #9,300 of 17,336
I doubt that ultrasonic sound could affect audible sound in any way. It's like x rays not affecting visible light rays.
I agree, I'm just pointing out the logical inconsistency in that argument if it did.
 

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