Testing audiophile claims and myths
Jul 20, 2018 at 3:18 PM Post #9,271 of 17,336
I've always thought that AudioDiffMaker was a neat idea if you wanted to take the human element out of the analysis but weren't content to test with frequency sweeps. It's old and a bit fussy apparently, but the analysis is intuitive. It appears to be very good at identifying differences in content that would be hard for a human to discern reliably (e.g. 320kbs vs Flac).

A few example analyses: http://archimago.blogspot.com/search?q=null+depth

I haven't used it but I wonder if you might be able to use the correlated null depth values for FLAC vs MP3 there as a benchmark to discern whether two things are truly different.

http://www.libinst.com/Audio DiffMaker.htm
 
Jul 20, 2018 at 4:04 PM Post #9,272 of 17,336
I've always thought that AudioDiffMaker was a neat idea if you wanted to take the human element out of the analysis but weren't content to test with frequency sweeps. It's old and a bit fussy apparently, but the analysis is intuitive. It appears to be very good at identifying differences in content that would be hard for a human to discern reliably (e.g. 320kbs vs Flac).

A few example analyses: http://archimago.blogspot.com/search?q=null+depth

I haven't used it but I wonder if you might be able to use the correlated null depth values for FLAC vs MP3 there as a benchmark to discern whether two things are truly different.

http://www.libinst.com/Audio DiffMaker.htm
you mean like this? http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/05/measurements-do-lossless-compressed.html
^_^
 
Jul 20, 2018 at 4:12 PM Post #9,273 of 17,336

More along these lines. If i'm using the software I need to know where the cutoff is to determine whether there is an audible difference between two components. If the correlated null depth between flac and 320kbps mp3 is 70db and I consider that barely audible then perhaps I should only worry about changes in my system that are less that 70db. Another option would be to use the same gear and change the FR to a level where you know you can detect a difference and use that as an audibility cutoff.

This is with the knowledge that Audio Diffmaker hears very differently than we do. Something that might be barely audible to us could be very different from it's perspective.

This is all less than scientific. I'm just throwing around ideas for people to play with. Recently I had a problem with my dac and know it either wasn't working correctly or there was some low-level interference and I couldn't tell the difference so maybe it is all moot for me if I can't hear that (could see it on the meters though!).
 
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Jul 20, 2018 at 5:14 PM Post #9,274 of 17,336
Part of the problem is that, since AudioDiffMaker is a digital product, it requires the samples it compares to be converted into a digital format (so the A/D converter used comes into the equation). The other question is about how it calculates the overall "null depth". Within a continuous repetitive signal, there will be a continuous steady difference.... for example, if one signal has 1% THD and the other has 2% THD, then there will be a steady and continuous difference of somewhere between 1% and 3% (depending on how the distortions present in each signal compare). However, if the differences aren't continuous, then the results may be difficult to compare or even to understand.

Let's take an obvious and simplistic example. My office and the office next door are about equally quiet.... However, once every ten seconds, I clap my hands together loudly in my office. Therefore, once every ten seconds, for a period of a few milliseconds, the noise level in my office is hundreds of times higher. So, the noise level in my office is 10,000% higher... for 1/10,000 of the time. If we were to express that as an AVERAGE, the average noise level in my office wouldn't be that much higher.... but it would be far different if we expressed it as a peak measurement.

When we're looking at analog signals, many types of issues, like THD and IM distortion, tend to be steady... while a few, like crossover notch distortion, may result in dramatic differences, but only for a tiny percentage of the time. Likewise, the ringing present in a digital filter is very time dependent. For most of the time, the signal is almost precisely what it should be... but, for a very tiny percentage of the time, the distortion is virtually 100% (there is output signal while the input signal is zero - so, for that brief interval of time, ALL of the output signal is pure noise or distortion).

Therefore, if I were to use AudioDiffMaker, I would want to actually see or listen to the actual null rather than just see something like the AVERAGE level of the null.
And I would also still be concerned that the response of the A/D converter might cover up differences that only occur for a short time during signal transitions.
At a minimum, I would suggest digitizing the signals to be compared at a much higher sample rate than the original signals were at.
So, if I wanted to compare the outputs of two DACs, while both playing a 44k CD audio file, I would digitize the signals to be compared at 192k.
(That way we can at least hope that an A/D operating at 192k can accurately resolve errors of the magnitude a DAC operating at 44.1k is likely to produce.)

More along these lines. If i'm using the software I need to know where the cutoff is to determine whether there is an audible difference between two components. If the correlated null depth between flac and 320kbps mp3 is 70db and I consider that barely audible then perhaps I should only worry about changes in my system that are less that 70db. Another option would be to use the same gear and change the FR to a level where you know you can detect a difference and use that as an audibility cutoff.

This is with the knowledge that Audio Diffmaker hears very differently than we do. Something that might be barely audible to us could be very different from it's perspective.

This is all less than scientific. I'm just throwing around ideas for people to play with. Recently I had a problem with my dac and know it either wasn't working correctly or there was some low-level interference and I couldn't tell the difference so maybe it is all moot for me if I can't hear that (could see it on the meters though!).
 
Jul 20, 2018 at 5:24 PM Post #9,275 of 17,336
Part of the problem is that, since AudioDiffMaker is a digital product, it requires the samples it compares to be converted into a digital format (so the A/D converter used comes into the equation). The other question is about how it calculates the overall "null depth". Within a continuous repetitive signal, there will be a continuous steady difference.... for example, if one signal has 1% THD and the other has 2% THD, then there will be a steady and continuous difference of somewhere between 1% and 3% (depending on how the distortions present in each signal compare). However, if the differences aren't continuous, then the results may be difficult to compare or even to understand.

Let's take an obvious and simplistic example. My office and the office next door are about equally quiet.... However, once every ten seconds, I clap my hands together loudly in my office. Therefore, once every ten seconds, for a period of a few milliseconds, the noise level in my office is hundreds of times higher. So, the noise level in my office is 10,000% higher... for 1/10,000 of the time. If we were to express that as an AVERAGE, the average noise level in my office wouldn't be that much higher.... but it would be far different if we expressed it as a peak measurement.

When we're looking at analog signals, many types of issues, like THD and IM distortion, tend to be steady... while a few, like crossover notch distortion, may result in dramatic differences, but only for a tiny percentage of the time. Likewise, the ringing present in a digital filter is very time dependent. For most of the time, the signal is almost precisely what it should be... but, for a very tiny percentage of the time, the distortion is virtually 100% (there is output signal while the input signal is zero - so, for that brief interval of time, ALL of the output signal is pure noise or distortion).

Therefore, if I were to use AudioDiffMaker, I would want to actually see or listen to the actual null rather than just see something like the AVERAGE level of the null.
And I would also still be concerned that the response of the A/D converter might cover up differences that only occur for a short time during signal transitions.
At a minimum, I would suggest digitizing the signals to be compared at a much higher sample rate than the original signals were at.
So, if I wanted to compare the outputs of two DACs, while both playing a 44k CD audio file, I would digitize the signals to be compared at 192k.
(That way we can at least hope that an A/D operating at 192k can accurately resolve errors of the magnitude a DAC operating at 44.1k is likely to produce.)

A few thoughts. First, you can listen to the diff file. If you listen to it and you have to crank your stereo to hear the diff it may be safe to assume that it is noise. Another idea would be to use a metric that doesn't have a breakdown point of 1. For example, you could look at the median or you could plot the whole distribution of null depths in percentiles for a certain sample rate. I'm not an expert obviously, but these don't seem like intractable problems.
 
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Jul 21, 2018 at 2:52 PM Post #9,276 of 17,336
More along these lines. If i'm using the software I need to know where the cutoff is to determine whether there is an audible difference between two components. If the correlated null depth between flac and 320kbps mp3 is 70db and I consider that barely audible then perhaps I should only worry about changes in my system that are less that 70db. Another option would be to use the same gear and change the FR to a level where you know you can detect a difference and use that as an audibility cutoff.

One thing to keep in mind when you talk about audibility is the purpose you are speaking about. It's possible to hear things using null tests and tones that you couldn't possibly hear in recorded music. You can feel free to consider -70dB barely audible when you're listening to a null test with the volume cranked, but I doubt you'd be able to hear -40dB when you're playing music. It's possible to set up tests where inaudible becomes audible. A lot of audiophools are experts at setting up straw men exceptions that are designed to break rules. But in practice, it probably doesn't matter at all. It's better to establish practical real world thresholds and then give it a little buffer if it makes you feel better. If you consider extreme situations, you'll just chase your tail and not even improve the sound of the music playing on your system. The purpose dictates the need, not the technical limitations.

The thing that opened my eyes to this problem was doing a little research on thresholds and trying to create examples for myself to hear what the numbers actually sound like instead of just assuming that better numbers mean better sound. The two videos in my sig file were very helpful because they illustrate real world examples and provide downloadable sample tracks that you can listen to on your own system. I went through both of those videos several times, pausing and figuring it all out. It helped me immensely.
 
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Jul 23, 2018 at 12:15 PM Post #9,277 of 17,336
I am not sure whether I'm on or off topic here but I gather I'm close enough.
I am currently waiting on a pair of Ultrasone pro2900 which I bought because I missed my old hfi2400, yet with the pro2900 I assumed, granted with my very limited knowledge about specs, I would be able to drive it with my little Cowon plenue d. -Also why I specifically ordered it all the way from the UK over the hfi2400 that I can buy here in Denmark.
I then proceed to visit the inhouse pro2900 thread on head fi and surprise surprise if I don't see one owner after another claiming it needs an amp to sound good.
I thought about asking my questions directly in the thread but decided not to.

I am currently not quite sure what to think as I am still waiting for my pair to turn up, but looking at the numbers it would seem that my Cowon with it's moddest 1 volts rms should do just fine. Then again maybe I am looking at this all wrong, which is why I thought about asking the folks in here.
Innerfidelity's measurements of the pro2900: https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/UltrasonePRO2900.pdf

Cheers
David
 
Jul 23, 2018 at 1:21 PM Post #9,278 of 17,336
Those cans are 40 ohm, which as a general rule of thumb is OK to use without amping. But it is a little on the high side. You'll need to try it with your source and see how it does. My headphones are 32 ohm and they work fine with my iPhone. A lot of people in the Head-Fi "fun zone" seem to think that amps improve any cans. That isn't necessarily true. If your impedance matches well, you don't need an amp.
 
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Jul 23, 2018 at 1:51 PM Post #9,279 of 17,336
It's a bit of a jungle to me with regards to all this matching impedances and voltages, but I guess I should do myself a favour and read up on it.
The hardest can of mine to drive is the hifiman he500 which is 38 ohm, yet when I had my Sony mdr-7506 with an impedance of 49 I had no trouble driving them with an iPod nano.
I then came across this site: https://www.headphonesty.com/headphone-power-calculator/
And it solved the puzzle (a bit) for me in that I learned about sensitivity.
Problem is whenever I come across a headphone that isn't already listed there, I have to find the numbers myself....and I always seem to have trouble finding the last bit ie loudness DBSPL. It's never listed! (I gather it probably is but I just have to do some math with what's already there in order to find it).
Methinks it'd be much easier if headphone companies just wrote how much power X can needs in order to reach X level of sound pressure.

I never expected math to interfere with my music. It doesn't really need to, I could just stick to an easy to drive headphone and be done with it...but for some reason I still need small portions of madness in my life.
 
Jul 23, 2018 at 1:56 PM Post #9,280 of 17,336
I am not sure whether I'm on or off topic here but I gather I'm close enough.
I am currently waiting on a pair of Ultrasone pro2900 which I bought because I missed my old hfi2400, yet with the pro2900 I assumed, granted with my very limited knowledge about specs, I would be able to drive it with my little Cowon plenue d. -Also why I specifically ordered it all the way from the UK over the hfi2400 that I can buy here in Denmark.
I then proceed to visit the inhouse pro2900 thread on head fi and surprise surprise if I don't see one owner after another claiming it needs an amp to sound good.
I thought about asking my questions directly in the thread but decided not to.

I am currently not quite sure what to think as I am still waiting for my pair to turn up, but looking at the numbers it would seem that my Cowon with it's moddest 1 volts rms should do just fine. Then again maybe I am looking at this all wrong, which is why I thought about asking the folks in here.
Innerfidelity's measurements of the pro2900: https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/UltrasonePRO2900.pdf

Cheers
David
it's one of those problems you can push any way you like. the notion of "need" for an audiophile can have some very wide and free interpretations. ^_^
about power and loudness, if Tyll's pair reflects your own, and the device can indeed handle around 1V into that load, then you can expect almost 108dB maxed out. which is loud, no doubt. but most people like to cover their bases for any listening conditions and any music material. and for that they will tend to look for a source that can drive the headphone to 110, 115, or even 120dB. I personally suggest to take 115dB as a very safe worst case scenario, but at the same time I almost never come close to 100dB SPL in my actual use of gears.
so already one could clearly say that your DAP isn't enough. despite how in practice(again if those numbers are all correct!) you'll probably go loud enough for your listening preferences unless you're in a subway and trying to completely cover possibly damaging noises with more damaging music(in which case I strongly suggest sealed IEMs like shure or etymotic instead of getting a portable amp).

then the idea that a better amp section can be superior to the output of a cowon, again it's technically possible obviously. a good amp can measure better and to some that's really all they "need". both devices might be transparent, or not, a significant difference in impedance might give you a little bass change. some caps at the output could definitely alter the low end with a low impedance headphone. some devices might just not be transparent and someone may prefer the sound of the amp and draw all sort of illegitimate assumptions about sound quality. the actual range of possibilities is quite big.
that said, it doesn't mean that using the Cowon will make you puke or have your headphone burst into flame ^_^. most likely you'll be very fine so long as you enjoy the signature of the headphone. my tiny worry comes from all the DSPs in cowon, I don't know if when you use them they first attenuate the signal a good deal to avoid clipping? if so depending on how much gain attenuation there is on some effects, you may encounter more situations where you'd wish you could push your DAP to 11. I don't know that it will be a problem, I don't even know that the gain attenuation isn't applied at all time. maybe using a DSP actually makes the output go louder like it does on my sony DAP. but it's one possibility where basic loudness could perhaps be an issue. someone who owned such a device would know better.
 
Jul 23, 2018 at 2:08 PM Post #9,281 of 17,336
A lot to read through but thanks for your answer. I almost exclusively use the 'maestro' effect because it increases clarity to my ears...and also increases the volume considerably. I've gone back and forth between 'flat/no effects' and 'maestro' in order to find out if it's only the volume that increases, but I find that I hear a significant clarity as well. May as well be bs, but I don't mind as long as the music sounds good.
I already have iems for on the go. I just wanted an easy to drive full size open back...without resorting to the non-comfort of Grados.
 
Jul 23, 2018 at 2:19 PM Post #9,282 of 17,336
cool, so it's probably like with my Sony, they always leave some room and using the DSPs can effectively boost the output. one less concern.
on my Fiio X1 using the EQ takes the volume down by maybe 6dB(if I remember correctly), that's why I had that potential concern. because I don't remember how Cowon deals with that. but based on your experience, that part is not only solved, it's actually good news.
 
Jul 23, 2018 at 2:43 PM Post #9,283 of 17,336
Your combo there is close enough to being OK on its own, I’d recommend trying it for a while and see if it gets loud enough for you. I seriously doubt that an amp will get you better sound quality, only more volume.
 
Jul 23, 2018 at 3:13 PM Post #9,284 of 17,336
Well I do own a headphone amp that drives my he500, so it should do just fine with the Ultrasone. It would just be an extra bonus to have something easy to drive as well.
The part I'm really looking forward to is actually the s-logic thing. It worked so well for me when I had my hfi2400. At first though it seemed like a very muddy and dark can. Took me a while before something in my head 'let go' and suddenly the music was as clear as a glacier in this huge room of sound.
Both the hfi2400 and the pro2900 have covered up drivers with but a few holes at the bottom of the cup. Sound is then pushed out there for then to bounce off the natural curve of your ear...if I understand correctly.
Sounds like bs I know but once you try that 'shifting of the waters' and the penny drops, it gets to be quite a thrilling can. I think it's because we are used to look for instruments in certain places, but when the headphone presents them in other places, it becomes bewildering...until you get it that is. I still get caught by certain genres - like going from some electronic music to a classic rock one fx. That can really throw me and once again make it seem as if the headphone is utterly muddy. I think it's because I've listened to sooooo much rock n roll in my life, over headphones no less, that a certain 'presentation of instruments' is hardwired in my cabeza.
Anyway I very much look forward to the bewildering qualities of the pro2900. I've found that s-logic only really works effectively with the pro series and the hfi2400, but they also all share the same driver enclosure (same holes at the bottom).
 
Jul 23, 2018 at 6:10 PM Post #9,285 of 17,336
"ultrasonics are inaudible", I hope so because in this 'Audiophile' recording "John Coltrane - Alternate Takes - Giant Steps 192 kHz 24 bit" I can see this:

Hey MacacaoDoSom, can you tell me where you got this track? It's pretty astounding. What does it sound like when you play it? I'm guessing there's some pretty hefty distortion going on when you pump those kinds of ultrasonics through a consumer amp!
 

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