[bigshot]

I totally get your point but I think in this case ie SONY which is a totally international brand then a lot of people would put their trust in this brand, rightly or wrongly so Im unsure if laziness is maybe fair to label with?

How many people put faith in GM for the Corvair before Ralph Nader put out Unsafe At Any Speed?
 
Brand is no guarantee of quality. Someone who doesn't understand what they are buying and puts faith in brand names are lazy.

 

[castleofargh]

wouldn't be the first time sony marketing goes a little too far, or "forgets" to mention the part where some super duper stuff is in fact useless at the output.
we're well past the point where trust in a company means trusting everything they say. in those days and age that's just being plain gullible.
I have full confidence in sony stuff for being well made and well thought. but the BS they put on to advertise their stuff... lol. and I say sony but any big brand is the same(else they would stay that big for long if they worked only with facts as marketing).
 
 
even if the engineers making a product are legit, the marketing department will always find a way to abuse a term or misunderstand a function for what it's not. we on headfi do it all year long, so why not the marketing guys who by definition are paid to be able to sell sand in the desert?

 

[cel4145]

And let's not forget that Sony continued to use Sony Memory Sticks in their electronics as the primary flash memory format and sell them for exorbitant prices long after other manufacturers standardized on Compact Flash and then SD (and then micro SD). Or what about the PS Vita? Generally run $35 to $40 (or more) for a 16GB proprietary Sony memory card :eek:

So I don't think that really makes them trustworthy in the flash memory market. They have repeatedly demonstrated their willingness to fleece consumers when it comes to flash memory.

 

[SilentFrequency]

How many people put faith in GM for the Corvair before Ralph Nader put out Unsafe At Any Speed?

Brand is no guarantee of quality. Someone who doesn't understand what they are buying and puts faith in brand names are lazy.

I'm not sure comparing automobile safety ( I googled GM Corvair) with a micro sdxc card is a good equation to label people as lazy but I understand your point to a degree so to speak.

 

[wink]

There is no such thing as audio myths, they're subjective experiences.. That's why we have YMMV.

 

[StanD]

  There is no such thing as audio myths, they're subjective experiences.. That's why we have YMMV.

Ask the Bunyip if he prefers the Pono.

 

[castleofargh]

  There is no such thing as audio myths, they're subjective experiences.. That's why we have YMMV.

but even subjectivity has its limits. when you try to force others to accept you reality, it's not subjective anymore, it's propaganda and delusions.
-"the voices aren't real, there are only you and me in that room" said the doctor.
-"but they're real, they're telling me to buy a silver power cable!" replied the man in straitjacket.
 
if the guy didn't try to convince so many people about his voices, he would still be living his life without a care in the world. from my point of view it's the same in audio, if the guys weren't trying so hard to convince others about their placebo and claims that contradict any rational experiment, we wouldn't feel the need to tell them how sick they are.
subjective stuff should stay personal. while objective ones can be shared because of how they can be reproduced by anybody.

 

[StanD]

 
but even subjectivity has its limits. when you try to force others to accept you reality, it's not subjective anymore, it's propaganda and delusions.
-"the voices aren't real, there are only you and me in that room" said the doctor.
-"but they're real, they're telling me to buy a silver power cable!" replied the man in straitjacket.
 
if the guy didn't try to convince so many people about his voices, he would still be living his life without a care in the world. from my point of view it's the same in audio, if the guys weren't trying so hard to convince others about their placebo and claims that contradict any rational experiment, we wouldn't feel the need to tell them how sick they are.
subjective stuff should stay personal. while objective ones can be shared because of how they can be reproduced by anybody.

My neighbor's dog told me to buy a silver USB cable. "It would increase the soundstage and extend the bass further," or so he said.

 

[KeithEmo]

I agree - there are distinct lines between "subjective reality" "objective reality" and "just plain lies" - at least some of the time.
 
Whether a $200 bottle of Sauvignon Blanc "really" tastes better than a $2 jug of Mad Dog is subjective - because, while we all agree that they aren't the same, it's just possible that one of us may like the $2 bottle better (and, in fact, which one is better is a matter of opinion). However, if I take a single $2 bottle of wine and pour half of it into an empty bottle with a fancy label on it, then the fact that the wine is exactly the same is no longer subjective. We can have a lively discussion about whether one of us thinks it tastes different when poured out of the fancy bottle, but saying that the wine itself is different is just plain not true.
 
Likewise, it's a fair subjective question about whether the tiny differences in distortion and noise between two high quality amplifiers are audible and, if so, which is better - but, if we actually subtract the outputs of both and get nothing at all, then we've proven that they are not different, in which case we can't (rationally) continue discussing the differences that aren't there.
 
In the case of subtle claimed differences between things like cables, while I tend to agree that some tests can be misleading, at the very least I expect the person making the claim to be able to demonstrate that a difference exists that they can demonstrate. If someone insists that they can hear a difference between otherwise identical silver and copper interconnects, then I'm mot especially interested in how many people, or what percentage of the people tested, can hear a difference what percentage of the time. But, if you want me to even listen to your claim, then I do expect you to show that at least one person can reliably hear a difference.
 
If you claim that there's an obvious difference, yet even you can't reliably tell which is which in a double blind test, then I am forced to consider that the most likely explanation is that you were either imagining that you heard a difference - or you're just plain lying.
 
If even one person out of a room of 500 can reliably tell which is which, then you have proven that there is a difference. However, if out of those 500 people, NOBODY can reliably tell the difference, beyond what they would be expected to get right if they just plain guess, then you have failed to provide any evidence that lends credibility to your claim. And, in the real world, when someone makes a claim, but has nothing whatsoever to back it up, we generally ignore them - or tell them to come back when they have some sort of evidence to prove that their claim is even worth thinking about.
 
I don't doubt that the guy in the straightjacket thinks silver wires sound better, but he also thinks he's Napoleon, and I have about as much reason to believe he's right about one as the other... so I probably have better things to do with my time than investigate either of his claims...  
Quote:

 
but even subjectivity has its limits. when you try to force others to accept you reality, it's not subjective anymore, it's propaganda and delusions.
-"the voices aren't real, there are only you and me in that room" said the doctor.
-"but they're real, they're telling me to buy a silver power cable!" replied the man in straitjacket.
 
if the guy didn't try to convince so many people about his voices, he would still be living his life without a care in the world. from my point of view it's the same in audio, if the guys weren't trying so hard to convince others about their placebo and claims that contradict any rational experiment, we wouldn't feel the need to tell them how sick they are.
subjective stuff should stay personal. while objective ones can be shared because of how they can be reproduced by anybody.

 

[OddE]

Wow. The Ultima Mat mentioned in the 24 vs 16 bit thread comes with marketing blurb which is way over the top - even by the standards of the most -ahem- esoteric of audio kit suppliers.
 
It would be interesting to report them to the Better Business Bureau and see what happened; presumably US legislation on marketing is a bit more lax than here in Norway, but basically - most of their description of what the mat is and does would, strictly speaking, be illegal around here.
 
Matter of fact, the only parts of the description which would pass muster is the claim that it is 20% of the thickness of a CD (if true, obviously) and the price.

 

[jodgey4]

If someone can make money off of idiot audiophiles, I say, more power to them (through cyro-treated silver cables breathed on by hippogriffs, of course)!

 

[analogsurviver]

  Wow. The Ultima Mat mentioned in the 24 vs 16 bit thread comes with marketing blurb which is way over the top - even by the standards of the most -ahem- esoteric of audio kit suppliers.
 
It would be interesting to report them to the Better Business Bureau and see what happened; presumably US legislation on marketing is a bit more lax than here in Norway, but basically - most of their description of what the mat is and does would, strictly speaking, be illegal around here.
 
Matter of fact, the only parts of the description which would pass muster is the claim that it is 20% of the thickness of a CD (if true, obviously) and the price.

Hmmmm.
 
Now, I am REALLY interested why you think the Ultima mat mentioned is something it would be illegal in Norway.
 
I have not been aware of its existence till yesterday - BUT it ticks one important box other CD mats do not. And that is being conductive on the side that comes in contact with the label side of the CD - preventing static buildup on the CD, which is better solution than any antistatic product yet made for the CD. These discharge the CD prior to the playback and can do absolutely nothing to prevent it getting charged again during up to 80 minutes of playback. Last time I checked, CD works by rotating the disc, and that means friction - which is used in the lowest grade of school to show  how by rubbing two electrically non conductive objects develop electrical charge. I do not believe you have never experienced static charge on the CD during its removal from the drawer after the playback.
 
I, too, find the price of the Ultima mat steep. However, if it actually does what it claims, that is to say keeps the CD static charge free for the duration of the playback, that gives it an edge - and hey, this has become, for the largest part, a capitalist society on the global scale. And they would be foolish not to charge for what it seems to be #1 product of its kind on the market. No different than anything else.
 
I do not subscribe to the practice of discharging the CD of its electrical charge by lightly pressing it between two sheets of kitchen aluminium foil - not because I could not hear the difference this makes to the sound, but since I absolutely do not want to put any unnecessary scratches to the playing surface - we all know what these cause, specially in the long run. My CDs and CD-Rs are handled with care and are all in mint condition - and I will keep it that way. Now, there is a mat that adds electrostatic discharge, for the duration of the playback to boot - what is there not to like, except the price ?
 
The sonic benefits of CD mat(s) are real. And they work correctly with the products they are intended to be used with. If there is something fishy and worth taking to the Better Business Bureau, it is the audio cable manufacturers - or more specifically, the use of exotic cables in cases they actually degrade the performance. Not every change in sound is for the positive - I will limit myself here to the exotic phono interconnect cables, some of which tend to be of too high capacitance and poor shielding and no doubt change the sound - and no doubt for the worse. Again, there are GREAT phono cables - or better said - WERE. People would not be paying MORE for the used cables than they went for new - for no reason. Ebay prices of any product are the true indicator whether anything has stood the test of time - or not.
There is one particular discontinued phono cable that ALWAYS sparks a bidding war - whenever it comes up for sale. For a VERY GOOD reason.
 
You will NEVER find a CD mat that will make the performance of the CD player worse ( except in those cases that prevent its use OR in extremely rare case the clamping mechanism of the CD player can not deal with the additional 0.3 or so mm thickness of the mat ).
 
The only problematic aspect of this CD mat business is - pricing. How, in some cases, printing the name/brand/model on basically the same product can triple or more
the price to the public IS beyond my comprehension. 

 

[MacacoDoSom]

  Wow. The Ultima Mat mentioned in the 24 vs 16 bit thread comes with marketing blurb which is way over the top - even by the standards of the most -ahem- esoteric of audio kit suppliers.
 
It would be interesting to report them to the Better Business Bureau and see what happened; presumably US legislation on marketing is a bit more lax than here in Norway, but basically - most of their description of what the mat is and does would, strictly speaking, be illegal around here.
 
Matter of fact, the only parts of the description which would pass muster is the claim that it is 20% of the thickness of a CD (if true, obviously) and the price.

 

The Ultimate Evolution in CD Mats...

 
,,,16-bit/44.1K recordings will resemble 24-bit/192K recordings.... don't they already? 
 
CD IS THE EVIL OF SOUND!!! power to the Turntables and to HD? sound!!!!!! 128-bit/2048K is the Future....

 

[OddE]

 
Now, I am REALLY interested why you think the Ultima mat mentioned is something it would be illegal in Norway.

 
-The core idea in the Norwegian legislation on marketing is that claims made need to be verifiably true (Now, claiming that something 'may' provide some beneficial effect or that 'some claim...' it provides same is OK.)
 
What shoots the Ultima Mat firmly north of the wall is claims like 'has improved bass articulation' and 'has improved high frequency linearity' which are both easily measured and verified - and it would surprise me big time if they were able to produce any such documentation.
 
The gobbledegook on the subtle improvements gained by aligning the mat with the (arbitrarily printed) label would probably pass; as would most of the pseudo-science; what does them in is the hard, precise claims that the mat can do something which would blow digital signal theory out of the water if it indeed worked as advertised.
 
As for static buildup in the disc - even if the mat should in fact convert static buildup to heat faster than the disc itself could - why would it be significant? (This is not a rhetorical question; I am genuinely curious) - the disc is, after all, being read optically.
 
Oh, and I agree that CDs (well, any media) should be handled carefully to remain as pristine as possible and that the lower circle of hell is reserved for high-end cable salesmen.

 

[MacacoDoSom]

   
As for static buildup in the disc - even if the mat should in fact convert static buildup to heat faster than the disc itself could - why would it be significant? (This is not a rhetorical question; I am genuinely curious) - the disc is, after all, being read optically.  

 
I am curious to....